Allah is satan.

[Primemuscle]

or science.. if it agrees with what the majority of scientist agree on based on the data

Although science is more tangible than blind faith, it can be wrong. Perception is everything for many folks. Therefore, what one believes can be very powerful, and yet mistaken.

[Agnostic007]

Although science is more tangible than blind faith, it can be wrong. Perception is everything for many folks. Therefore, what one believes can be very powerful, and yet mistaken.

The thing about science that is different than religion is that scientists typically will adjust or drop their position when new data proves it false. In fact, the processes itself involves disproving the hypothesis. And personally, if new data is developed that changes the current paradigm I will adjust with it. Not so with religion. They will fight to explain the most ridiculous claims as true when it's pointed out to be likely fictitious or a fable. 

[Man of Steel]

Other people believe faith alone trumps evidence.

True and other people discover absolute evidence via faith.

[Man of Steel]

or science.. if it agrees with what the majority of scientist agree on based on the data

exactly my point....thank you for that.  the scientific community repeatedly touts "the way science is done" to understand all things yet ignores those same principles of exploring evidence when it comes to evidence for God.  as long as God is removed from the situation the circumstance is then deemed reasonable to explore, but otherwise when it disagrees with presuppositions it's automatically thrown out as useless, delusional or ignorant....tremendous irony in that conclusion but only believers will comprehend that.   on the other hand, some in the scientific community demand God be defined, discovered and tested through scientific means alone.   right then and there they've committed a category mistake/error as you can't decipher a supernatural God with natural methodology.   all science means is knowledge and that knowledge is of the natural world.  nothing wrong with science, but to know God you need more than science can provide and must be willing to abide by God's terms as put forth in scripture.  suppress that truth and you'll remain in ignorance of all that God is.

[Man of Steel]

Although science is more tangible than blind faith, it can be wrong. Perception is everything for many folks. Therefore, what one believes can be very powerful, and yet mistaken.

this is why I put my understanding and faith in the objective standards of God as opposed to the subjective standards of men.  in objectivity you can be certain.  in subjectivity you're never certain.

[Primemuscle]

True and other people discover absolute evidence via faith.

I'm not saying these people don't, but how is this possible? Are you saying that if you believe in something strongly enough, it becomes an indisputable truth? If you would provide some examples of what you mean by absolute evidence discovered via faith, it might help me understand what you mean. 

[Man of Steel]

I'm not saying these people don't, but how is this possible? Are you saying that if you believe in something strongly enough, it becomes an indisputable truth? If you would provide some examples of what you mean by absolute evidence discovered via faith, it might help me understand what you mean. 

loco does have a very good heart.

I sure hope that despite whatever obstacles are in your life that are preventing you from engaging faith in God that you will continue to think about it and meditate on it.   Faith isn't an easy business initially and I speak from experience.  It took me having one foot in the grave before I surrendered myself to the Lord's will for my life and I've never been the same. 

For some faith begins with a leap and for others faith begins with an honest desire to truly find out if God is real.  For the believer faith then transitions from a leap to full assurance in the heart when the new believer is then indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  That moment of acceptance of Christ by faith is the turning point, the time in which the new believer has clarity, fresh eyes and begins to experience the very presence of the creator himself.  It requires a genuine desire to know God and a humble heart that surrenders to God's will for their life.  From my humble chair there is only upside to belief in Jesus Christ. 

Today may not be your day for faith, but my prayer is that before your life comes to an end that your day for faith does arrive.

God bless!!

[Primemuscle]

Thanks. This is your personnel evidence as to how and why you "found" faith in God. Clearly, your near death experience influenced this decision. Near death experiences are frequently the catalyst for finding faith. Once faced with death, it is only natural to become much more aware of one's mortality. This is why many people seek assurance that there is more to us than ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Who wants to believe when you die, that's it. You become nothing more than fertilizer for the future.

[Agnostic007]

Thanks. This is your personnel evidence as to how and why you "found" faith in God. Clearly, your near death experience influenced this decision. Near death experiences are frequently the catalyst for finding faith. Once faced with death, it is only natural to become much more aware of one's mortality. This is why many people seek assurance that there is more to us than ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Who wants to believe when you die, that's it. You become nothing more than fertilizer for the future.

Some say the survival instinct is the biggest reason for religion. We instinctively grasp for life and what better way to avoid death than to believe after you die, life continues. Some say it is an ego thing. How can we, humans be the same as the cattle or the deer on the highway where it's all over once we die. We must have something on the other side.   

[Primemuscle]

Some say the survival instinct is the biggest reason for religion. We instinctively grasp for life and what better way to avoid death than to believe after you die, life continues. Some say it is an ego thing. How can we, humans be the same as the cattle or the deer on the highway where it's all over once we die. We must have something on the other side.   

Whichever way death is described with immortality or not, what is good for one is good for all. If we have life after death than so does every other living thing.

[Agnostic007]

Whichever way death is described with immortality or not, what is good for one is good for all. If we have life after death than so does every other living thing.

Seems more likely than just one particular species having it if it exists at all.

[Man of Steel]

Thanks. This is your personnel evidence as to how and why you "found" faith in God. Clearly, your near death experience influenced this decision. Near death experiences are frequently the catalyst for finding faith. Once faced with death, it is only natural to become much more aware of one's mortality. This is why many people seek assurance that there is more to us than ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Who wants to believe when you die, that's it. You become nothing more than fertilizer for the future.

Yes, this is my personal evidence for God....my testimony.....my divine revelation of God.

I was near death for awhile actually.  It was the instant I lifted my arms and fully surrendered my life to Christ in that hospital room and BOOM....instantly the room was filled with the overwhelming, undeniable, tangible presence of the Holy Spirit and my surgical wounds began to tingle like never before (and never have again) from top to bottom.

Next day my folks came to visit and my father walked in, took a look at me and had a strange expression on his face but he said nothing about it.  It was a short time later that he told me that when he came in the room that I appeared to be enveloped in a sort of glow or hue.  It was my aunt that later said, "boys that was the shekinah glory of God".   I was changed in an instant in that room and never thought, desired or acted the same again.  All glory to God!  

[Man of Steel]

Some say the survival instinct is the biggest reason for religion. We instinctively grasp for life and what better way to avoid death than to believe after you die, life continues. Some say it is an ego thing. How can we, humans be the same as the cattle or the deer on the highway where it's all over once we die. We must have something on the other side.  

There's some definite truth in this, but it's unrelated to my testimony.   I didn't go to God because of a fear of death....I was prepared to die.....I actually wanted to die at one point (it was a ridiculous state of mind).  Yet, in that moment I knew inside myself that I wanted change and to finally serve and submit to God.  I could literally feel his drawing within me.   In that moment if God wanted to grant me additional life that would be guided by his will alone, but I knew I was ready to come to him in humble, faithful surrender.

Best I can explain it briefly.

[Agnostic007]

There's some definite truth in this, but it's unrelated to my testimony.   I didn't go to God because of a fear of death....I was prepared to die.....I actually wanted to die at one point (it was a ridiculous state of mind).  Yet, in that moment I knew inside myself that I wanted change and to finally serve and submit to God.  I could literally feel his drawing within me.   In that moment if God wanted to grant me additional life that would be guided by his will alone, but I knew I was ready to come to him in humble, faithful surrender.

Best I can explain it briefly.

Hey, in all seriousness, if you had some personal revelation of a god, then of course you should believe unless you were on medication that might cause it. My brother, a very intelligent, respected person believes in god and teaches at church. He believes he had a personal experience. His problem is he thinks his personal experience should be enough to convince me. As you probably know, hearing what other people saw or experienced when it comes to making a decision on something like believing in the supernatural just doesn't work as well. 

[Man of Steel]

Hey, in all seriousness, if you had some personal revelation of a god, then of course you should believe unless you were on medication that might cause it. My brother, a very intelligent, respected person believes in god and teaches at church. He believes he had a personal experience. His problem is he thinks his personal experience should be enough to convince me. As you probably know, hearing what other people saw or experienced when it comes to making a decision on something like believing in the supernatural just doesn't work as well.  

No mind altering medication involved.  I've addressed this specific issue many times in the past.  The change I experienced came from an outside stimulus that is not of man and changed me from the inside out.  Nothing was injected or consumed.  No issue of mental illness has even been part of my past.   No bizarre afflictions, addictions, illnesses, etc....are part of my past.

Question for you:  If the testimony of your brother isn't trustworthy enough for you to pursue God then what would it take?

[Las Vegas]

No mind altering medication involved. �I've addressed this specific issue many times in the past. �The ge I experienced came from an outside stimulus that is not of man and changed me from the inside out.  Nothing was injected or consumed.  No issue of mental illness has even been part of my past.   No bizarre afflictions, addictions, illnesses, etc....are part of my past.

Question for you:  If the testimony of your brother isn't trustworthy enough for you to pursue God then what would it take?

MoS, I do enjoy your posts.  You are a cool cat and a real delight to read.

Let me ask you something.  How do you see availability of conscience and logic, presumably existing somewhere in each of us (no matter how far buried in an individual), as a means in potentially seeking God?  In which ways could you see that (those) as a help or a hindrance in that pursuit?

[AbrahamG]

True and other people discover absolute evidence via faith.

To put it mildly, No they most certainly do not.  It's this type of shit that makes it impossible to take you and side
seriously.

[Man of Steel]

To put it mildly, No they most certainly do not.  It's this type of shit that makes it impossible to take you and side
seriously.

Somehow I'll have to find a way to carry on despite your opinion of me.




 ....






 ......








  ......





well I'm over it.  

[AbrahamG]

Somehow I'll have to find a way to carry on despite your opinion of me.




 ....






 ......








  ......





well I'm over it.  

I actually think you are probably a pretty nice guy.  

[Agnostic007]

No mind altering medication involved.  I've addressed this specific issue many times in the past.  The change I experienced came from an outside stimulus that is not of man and changed me from the inside out.  Nothing was injected or consumed.  No issue of mental illness has even been part of my past.   No bizarre afflictions, addictions, illnesses, etc....are part of my past.

Question for you:  If the testimony of your brother isn't trustworthy enough for you to pursue God then what would it take?

seeing whatever he saw that convinced him to forgo logical thinking and believe the bible is true

[Primemuscle]

Yes, this is my personal evidence for God....my testimony.....my divine revelation of God.

I was near death for awhile actually.  It was the instant I lifted my arms and fully surrendered my life to Christ in that hospital room and BOOM....instantly the room was filled with the overwhelming, undeniable, tangible presence of the Holy Spirit and my surgical wounds began to tingle like never before (and never have again) from top to bottom.

Next day my folks came to visit and my father walked in, took a look at me and had a strange expression on his face but he said nothing about it.  It was a short time later that he told me that when he came in the room that I appeared to be enveloped in a sort of glow or hue.  It was my aunt that later said, "boys that was the shekinah glory of God".   I was changed in an instant in that room and never thought, desired or acted the same again.  All glory to God!  

What an amazing experience you had. I understand how something like this might alter your thinking. Surely, you had what you believe is a revelation. Your father confirmed it when he told you about his reaction to seeing you. Your aunt did too when she explained that it was the Shekinah Glory of God. Is your family fairly religious?

I had what seemed like a revelation one time when I was still in my teens. I woke up during the night (or thought I did) with the intense feeling that I was dying, although I wasn't sick, . There was an audible part to this event. Accompanying the feeling was a noise, rather like a hum, that got louder and louder. I had a sense that there was also a presence, only it wasn't something or someone mythical, it was my father who I not had contact with for over 10 years. Subconsciously, I believed that if I didn't fight my feelings I would indeed die, so I fought to end the sound and the feelings and they went eventually away. I was awake for the rest of the night, probably in fear of nodding off should the experience return.

The only other time I was near death, I was an impossibly premature infant and the doctors told my mother I would not survive. My mom insisted she only carried me six months. I remained in the hospital for several months before I could go home.

  

[Man of Steel]

I actually think you are probably a pretty nice guy. 

I like to think that I am....I always aim to be to everyone.   I have missteps sometimes.   

I don't think atheists/agnostics are bad people either.  Or people of other faiths. 

I genuinely care about folks and want to see them enter into relationship with God. 

I don't want people ending up in hell separated from God and having to deal with that reality for an eternity.

I realize at times that I'm perceived as arrogant, but I'm really not.  Unfortunately when a person puts forth answers to objections and does so with confidence it often gets interpreted as arrogance.   Not my intention. 

I'm no scholar.   I'm really just a lifelong student consistently in search of answers to questions. 

I learn from more mature believers.   I learn from sermons.  I learn from experience.  I learn from books.  I learn online.  I learn via conversation.  I learn from independent bible study.   

And at times I'm nothing more than a glorified parrot reciting answers I've learned/read from someone else along the way.

[Man of Steel]

seeing whatever he saw that convinced him to forgo logical thinking and believe the bible is true

For my own clarification, do you mean you require going back in time to witness the exact event your brother experienced?  Or do you mean you'd need to have the same (or similarly impactful) experience today your brother once had?  

Does that make sense?

[Man of Steel]

MoS, I do enjoy your posts.  You are a cool cat and a real delight to read.

Let me ask you something.  How do you see availability of conscience and logic, presumably existing somewhere in each of us (no matter how far buried in an individual), as a means in potentially seeking God?  In which ways could you see that (those) as a help or a hindrance in that pursuit?

I appreciate that and I'm grateful for your contributions on these boards as well.

I believe that conscience represents the law of God written upon each of our hearts.  Often times we instinctively recognize something as right or wrong with no prior experience to guide that opinion.   It's been impressed upon us by God....coded into us if you will.    I believe it's as simple as instinctively recognizing that stealing is wrong....even small children inherently grasp this.   Why is stealing wrong?  Because God is not a thief.

I believe that the laws of logic are established by the very nature of God.  He is the source of logic.  The objective standard by which all things are measured.   There exists such a schism between groups as they interpret what is logical and what is illogical or what is truth and what is a fallacious claim or argument.   The subjectivity of men lends itself to every wind of doctrine tossing us to and fro as scripture states.   It's only when grounded in the objectivity of God does logic have a genuine foundation.

I believe that when people make a conscious decision to suppress God that they progressively harden their hearts and therefore there's no drawing of God in their lives.   Through his foreknowledge of their deeds he knows their hearts are shut to him and therefore coming to him in repentance will not happen so they never experience his divine drawing to salvation.   At least in agnosticism there's more hope that hearts aren't fully shut, but with the majority of atheists it's typically a done deal and their eternity sealed.

[Agnostic007]

For my own clarification, do you mean you require going back in time to witness the exact event your brother experienced?  Or do you mean you'd need to have the same (or similarly impactful) experience today your brother once had?  

Does that make sense?

B option.