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Author Topic: god wants the world to be ruled by evil because  (Read 10126 times)
Simple Simon
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« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2017, 11:48:35 AM »

So you aren't coerced or forced to be one way or another?  How's that possible?  God is all powerful and therefore you had no choice in the matter.   He wills that you surrender to him in faith and repentance, but yet you aren't. 

For me to believe God is all powerful I would first have to establish he exists in the first place.

I see no evidence of that, the horrors of this world proves that even if there is a God, hes a c.unt.
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« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2017, 11:51:18 AM »

Yeah.

Some people need a god to behave, no doubt. It's ironic, cause, god shouldn't desire these people in the first place because they aren't inherently good, just acting good out of fear of god's wrath.

If you see a child walking down the street and someone bludgeons him to death, you don't need to believe in a god to have compassion or morality.

But even in non extreme cases, most people behave due to the consequences of breaking laws, or self evident maturity- you wouldn't want that shit done to yourself. I would think, even if it was revealed that there was no god, people would still want to live in a civilized society. I think we are better than a bunch of low life savages.

This implies that some of us are inherently good.  How so and who?  What's the standard for that goodness? 

You also suggest that believers only pretend to be good out of fear of God's wrath.   An all powerful, all knowing God wouldn't be able to recognize genuine belief over phony belief?
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« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2017, 11:52:12 AM »

For me to believe God is all powerful I would first have to establish he exists in the first place.

I see no evidence of that, the horrors of this world proves that even if there is a God, hes a c.unt.

That's a great red herring, but you didn't answer my question.
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Simple Simon
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« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2017, 11:55:36 AM »

This implies that some of us are inherently good.  How so and who?  What's the standard for that goodness? 

You also suggest that believers only pretend to be good out of fear of God's wrath.   An all powerful, all knowing God wouldn't be able to recognize genuine belief over phony belief?

Some people believe that the afterlife is there waiting for them and if they are good they will be rewarded and if they are evil they will be punished.

Some people believe that this is it and there is no afterlife, they live their lives morally right or morally wrong, but thats people for you.

Religion was created to try and keep the morally wrong in check..
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« Reply #104 on: October 17, 2017, 12:04:44 PM »

Some people believe that the afterlife is there waiting for them and if they are good they will be rewarded and if they are evil they will be punished.

Some people believe that this is it and there is no afterlife, they live their lives morally right or morally wrong, but thats people for you.

Religion was created to try and keep the morally wrong in check..

How does religion keep the morally wrong in check?
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« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2017, 12:11:10 PM »

Plato, Aristotle and other ancient philosophers provide arguments and guidelines on what it means to live a good and virtuous life for oneself and others without a religious aspect.

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« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2017, 12:21:54 PM »

Plato, Aristotle and other ancient philosophers provide arguments and guidelines on what it means to live a good and virtuous life for oneself and others without a religious aspect.



Sure, that's true.  My mother has a subjective standard also.   Why is one subjective standard better than another?  
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« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2017, 12:32:29 PM »

Sure, that's true.  My mother has a subjective standard also.   Why is one subjective standard better than another?  

Everything is arguably subjective.

The point is that 'living a good and virtuous life' or a philosophy which promotes these principles does not have to include religion.
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« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2017, 12:36:17 PM »

Childrens fiction book (Bible) talking snakes,immaculate conceptions, Arks, sky wizards.
Funny stuff...
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2017, 12:42:46 PM »

Everything is arguably subjective.

The point is that 'living a good and virtuous life' or a philosophy which promotes these principles does not have to include religion.

What constitutes good and virtuous living?
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2017, 12:43:46 PM »

Childrens fiction book (Bible) talking snakes,immaculate conceptions, Arks, sky wizards.
Funny stuff...

You willing to defend your position or is this just a "hit and run"?
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2017, 12:46:19 PM »

Do you feel that it is better let someone live how they want or provide warning if they're not on the "straight and narrow"?

Not a trap LOL....just curious.


I do not believe in the hereafter. What would be the purpose of a warning and where would it come from? Humans intuitively know when they are doing something wrong and their retribution is in the here and now.  
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2017, 12:48:36 PM »

What constitutes good and virtuous living?

This is for each of us to determine for ourselves.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2017, 12:50:45 PM »

I do not believe in the hereafter. What would be the purpose of a warning and where would it come from? Humans intuitively know when they are doing something wrong and their retribution is in the here and now. 

The purpose of the warning is to help someone remove themselves from dangerous situation/condition and it's comes from a place of love for others.

What is the source of that intuitive thinking and what is the retribution currently experienced?  Laws of men and punishment therein?
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« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2017, 12:51:10 PM »

In a hundred million years there will be no earth, no memories of humans and their various mythos and superstitions, and certainly no one to care that such a pedestrian planet and it's utterly insignificant population ever existed.
That some troglodytes left behind by evolution still cling to the mentally ill delusion of an imaginary "friend/ trunk monkey" in the sky- is completely irrelevant to intelligent conversation.

Have you ever found yourself, at any time, to be seeking God?
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« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2017, 12:52:20 PM »

This is for each of us to determine for ourselves.

So if an action/circumstance is considered good and virtuous by one group and not good and virtuous by another which group is right and which group is wrong?
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« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2017, 12:53:31 PM »

I'm not entirely sure about living life on one's own terms. This implies that if someone's terms were negative or evil, it would be okay, which I don't believe it is. Like it or not, we live amongst others it is only right to show them consideration.

Why, Prime?

Huh
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« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2017, 01:05:14 PM »

The purpose of the warning is to help someone remove themselves from dangerous situation/condition and it's comes from a place of love for others.

What is the source of that intuitive thinking and what is the retribution currently experienced?  Laws of men and punishment therein?

Warnings come from our conscience and from others who love and care about us. Everyone has a conscience (even sociopaths can feel the personal shame of failure and disapproval, even though they may not feel guilt or empathy for the suffering of other people).   Punishment is synonymous with retribution; they are one in the same. Intuition comes from within us.
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Simple Simon
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« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2017, 01:18:11 PM »

How does religion keep the morally wrong in check?
the explanation is in the previous post
they check their behaviour in a hope they will be rewarded in the afterlife.
If they thought there was no afterlife they would have no consequences and a person without fear of consequence is very dangerous indeed.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2017, 01:21:12 PM »

Warnings come from our conscience and from others who love and care about us. Everyone has a conscience (even sociopaths can feel the personal shame of failure and disapproval, even though they may not feel guilt or empathy for the suffering of other people).   Punishment is synonymous with retribution; they are one in the same. Intuition comes from within us.

So you're suggesting that our conscience (or intuition) is just in us....not instilled.  That we instinctively understand right from wrong without any objective standard as a basis of comparison.   That would suggest that it could be detected or even isolated in the gene code.  Further, how can you trust your conscience....your intuition if it's grounded in subjectivity?  

Sociopaths actually have a lack of conscience or perhaps a denial or suppression of conscience.  If they experience shame it's probably at odds with a non-sociopath; yet, who is right and who is wrong?
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« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2017, 01:23:14 PM »

the explanation is in the previous post
they check their behaviour in a hope they will be rewarded in the afterlife.
If they thought there was no afterlife they would have no consequences and a person without fear of consequence is very dangerous indeed.

But the morally wrong don't adhere to a Godly standard.  Their subjective perspective is diametrically opposed to God's objective standard.
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Simple Simon
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« Reply #121 on: October 17, 2017, 01:23:19 PM »

So you're suggesting that our conscience (or intuition) is just in us....not instilled.  That we instinctively understand right from wrong without any objective standard as a basis of comparison.   That would suggest that it could be detected or even isolated in the gene code.  Further, how can you trust your conscience....your intuition if it's grounded in subjectivity?   

Sociopaths actually have a lack of conscience or perhaps a denial or suppression of conscience.  If they experience shame it's probably at odds with a non-sociopath; yet, who is right and who is wrong?

the majority decides.
A brief explanation of how the world works in one sentence. "You can do whatever you like in life, but if other people dont like what you are doing they will stop you"
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Simple Simon
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« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2017, 01:24:06 PM »

But the morally wrong don't adhere to a Godly standard.  Their subjective perspective is diametrically opposed to God's objective standard.

how do you know what Gods standards are, he may be pulling our legs...
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2017, 01:24:56 PM »

the majority decides.
A brief explanation of how the world works in one sentence. "You can do whatever you like in life, but if other people dont like what you are doing they will stop you"

so an ad populum fallacy?
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2017, 01:26:56 PM »

how do you know what Gods standards are, he may be pulling our legs...

Jesus Christ, biblical scripture, divine revelation of the Holy Spirit in believers....things of that sort. 

What would be the motivation for a divine, transcendent God to pull our legs?  To lie to us essentially?
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