Isolation exercises added to compound exercises don't make a difference

[Hypertrophy]

Interesting study, and there are several followup ones that say the same thing: If you do compound movements (Like bench, row, etc), adding isolation exercises for the same muscles doesn't gain you anything more in size or strength.  Furthermore if you do single joint exercises (like flyes and triceps extensions) instead of the corresponding multi joint  movement (bench press) you can get a similar effect. You just don't  gain anything by doing both.  

I personally like doing compound exercises like incline bench, rows, etc and will skip the single joint stuff (like bent laterals, curls) because they make my joints hurt. To each his own though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23537028

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26244600

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26446291

[BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT]

The late great Don Ross once told me that he was a fan of going hard,heavy and intense to failure on isolation exercises primarily instead of using compounds. I myself have implemented his advice for the past 20 years and swear by it.

[NelsonMuntz]

Interesting study, and there are several followup ones that say the same thing: If you do compound movements (Like bench, row, etc), adding isolation exercises for the same muscles doesn't gain you anything more in size or strength.  Furthermore if you do single joint exercises (like flyes and triceps extensions) instead of the corresponding multi joint  movement (bench press) you can get a similar effect. You just don't  gain anything by doing both.  

I personally like doing compound exercises like incline bench, rows, etc and will skip the single joint stuff (like bent laterals, curls) because they make my joints hurt. To each his own though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23537028

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26244600

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26446291

Probably the most important statement that supercedes any study out there. Do what keeps you coming back or wanting to keep coming back(life does get in the way sometimes)

There are tons of people in gyms who follow all this science stuff or certain programs like their life depnds on it. And they are spinning their wheels in frustration, not necessarily because of a lack of gains but because they hate the particular template they are following, and feel they have to follow it.

To me that is like playing hockey and hating it but investing all that time and money into it because everyone else does it.

Science contributes alot of good discussion when it comes to exercise but it also takes the life out of what it really is, and outlet

[BEEFYHEAVYWEIGHT]

Probably the most important statement that supercedes any study out there. Do what keeps you coming back or wanting to keep coming back(life does get in the way sometimes)

There are tons of people in gyms who follow all this science stuff or certain programs like their life depnds on it. And they are spinning their wheels in frustration, not necessarily because of a lack of gains but because they hate the particular template they are following, and feel they have to follow it.

To me that is like playing hockey and hating it but investing all that time and money into it because everyone else does it.

Science contributes alot of good discussion when it comes to exercise but it also takes the life out of what it really is, and outlet

Well said.

[Henda]

Is it suggesting benches and rows build the arms just fine without curls and push downs ect and adding direct arm work does nothing? I’m sure many of us tried this during the height of the “hardgainer” training by stuart mcrobert popularity, at least personally all that approach got me was stick thin 14 inch arms at 6ft 220lb which goes without saying looked fucking pathetic

[Thin Lizzy]

Isolation movements have always been a waste of fucking time.

[SF1900]

Is it suggesting benches and rows build the arms just fine without curls and push downs ect and adding direct arm work does nothing? I’m sure many of us tried this during the height of the “hardgainer” training by stuart mcrobert popularity, at least personally all that approach got me was stick thin 14 inch arms at 6ft 220lb which goes without saying looked fucking pathetic

I don't think it's saying that, but I could be wrong. I thought it was saying that if you do bench press, then adding in cable cross overs won't add anything. If you do barbell rows, adding in lat pulldowns won't do anything. It's saying that adding in isolation exercise for the same muscle group, won't add anything. Its not saying that barbell rows build arms and that one shouldn't do curls. You still need to do curls. But, if we generalize the results, it may also mean that doing barbell curls (more compound movement) may be enough and adding in cable curls (isolation) may not add anything.

But perhaps one of our resident getbig personal trainers can clarify.

[sceagacros]

I would say that for me there was a very real and measurable benefit to adding isolation exercises for some smaller muscle groups in both hypertrophy and strength.


For me rows and chins were not enough by themselves , as soon as I added direct work biceps grew noticeably.

Similar experience with side and rear delts.

*Both groups had been being hit with compound movements prior to adding isolation work:
Upright row and overhead + side and rear delt raises in the case of delts and barbell curls + concentration curls for biceps

[Mr Anabolic]

I can agree and disagree with the comments mentioned above.

But... any exercise is better than no exercise.

[Henda]

I don't think it's saying that, but I could be wrong. I thought it was saying that if you do bench press, then adding in cable cross overs won't add anything. If you do barbell rows, adding in lat pulldowns won't do anything. It's saying that adding in isolation exercise for the same muscle group, won't add anything. Its not saying that barbell rows build arms and that one shouldn't do curls. You still need to do curls. But, if we generalize the results, it may also mean that doing barbell curls (more compound movement) may be enough and adding in cable curls (isolation) may not add anything.

But perhaps one of our resident getbig personal trainers can clarify.

Reading it again it’s me who’s got it wrong I misunderstood the bit about fly’s and tri extensions having the same effect as benches alone.
Personal experience I spent years training using one big movement per body part and it did work well to a certain extent, but noticed a massive difference adding a few other excercises for each body part, more noticeably in certain areas, delts for example when doing just military presses had shoulders grew but were very flat when viewed from the front, adding in behind neck presses and side laterals made a massive difference.

[FREAKgeek]

You'll never be at your best at isolation exercises if you never do them, i.e. the carryover from compound exercises only goes so far. So it does do something.

[Viking11]

I've seen studies like this.  Technically correct. However, it can get very boring just using the same exercises with no variety. I use basic free weight movements like squats, rows, sometimes rack deads, seated overhead presses, but also have several nautilus machines, double chest, lateral raise, pulldown, multi exercise, leg curl,leg ext- though my ex gf broke that, and universal pullover, also needs a cable replaced, vertical leg press, as well as a couple of dumbells for variety. i tend to go with these, do chins, dips and calf raises on multi exercise machine, and can do a lot  more if the whim hits me. Makes it more fun and motivating.

[FREAKgeek]

The aim of this study was to examine the effect of adding single-joint (SJ) exercises to a multi-joint (MJ) exercise resistance-training program on upper body muscle size and strength. Twenty-nine untrained young men participated in a 10-week training session. They were randomly divided in 2 groups: the MJ group performed only MJ exercises (lat pulldown and bench press); the MJ+SJ group performed the same MJ exercises plus SJ exercises (lat pulldown, bench press, elbow flexion, and elbow extension). Before and after the training period, the muscle thickness (MT) of the elbow flexors was measured with ultrasound, and peak torque (PT) was measured with an isokinetic dynamometer. There was a significant (p < 0.05) increase in MT (6.5% for MJ and 7.04% for MJ+SJ) and PT (10.40% for MJ and 12.85% for MJ+SJ) in both groups, but there were no between-group differences. Therefore, this study showed that the inclusion of SJ exercises in a MJ exercise training program resulted in no additional benefits in terms of muscle size or strength gains in untrained young men.

Am I missing something here 

[Anonymous]

Not going to reevaluate my training based on studies that were conducted on untrained individuals.

[HonestBob]

Exercise choice counts, but it's more about the intensity, frequency and volume.

If 12 sets is your sweet spot then 3 exercises x 4 and 2 exercises x 6 might not make the biggest difference. On paper.

In reality, most of us get bored with a low variety of movements, plus there's always a greater risk of some kind of repetitive strain injury.

[Vince B]

I read all three abstracts and they probably have little or no relevance for bodybuilders. Studies done with untrained subjects are useless especially as the length of the study is less than 3 months.

It doesn't say which exercises were used for the so called isolation movements. This makes all the difference in the world. Some exercises work up to a point then are no longer effective. What you need to use are the most effective exercises. The sets and reps are also important but more so for advanced bodybuilders.

The 3 studies clearly demonstrate how ignorant the 'exercise scientists' were. When some exercise scientists are champion bodybuilders we might get somewhere.

[SF1900]

I read all three abstracts and they probably have little or no relevance for bodybuilders. Studies done with untrained subjects are useless especially as the length of the study is less than 3 months.

It doesn't say which exercises were used for the so called isolation movements. This makes all the difference in the world. Some exercises work up to a point then are no longer effective. What you need to use are the most effective exercises. The sets and reps are also important but more so for advanced bodybuilders.

The 3 studies clearly demonstrate how ignorant the 'exercise scientists' were. When some exercise scientists are champion bodybuilders we might get somewhere.

Yet, you have never published a study and they have lol.

[Hypertrophy]

I read all three abstracts and they probably have little or no relevance for bodybuilders. Studies done with untrained subjects are useless especially as the length of the study is less than 3 months.

It doesn't say which exercises were used for the so called isolation movements. This makes all the difference in the world. Some exercises work up to a point then are no longer effective. What you need to use are the most effective exercises. The sets and reps are also important but more so for advanced bodybuilders.

The 3 studies clearly demonstrate how ignorant the 'exercise scientists' were. When some exercise scientists are champion bodybuilders we might get somewhere.

Sure you read those studies Vince? Because if you did you’d see that the title of one was: “The effects of adding single-joint exercises to a multi-joint exercise resistance training program on upper body muscle strength and size in trained men.”  “ Trained men” as in two years experience in resistance training, as described in the study.

Still waiting on your definitive theory of hypertrophic response to exercise..

[SF1900]

Sure you read those studies Vince? Because if you did you’d see that the title of one was: “The effects of adding single-joint exercises to a multi-joint exercise resistance training program on upper body muscle strength and size in trained men.”  “ Trained men” as in two years experience in resistance training, as described in the study.

Still waiting on your definitive theory of hypertrophic response to exercise..

Vince does not have a theory. He has a "hypothesis" at best.

[Vince B]

Sure you read those studies Vince? Because if you did you’d see that the title of one was: “The effects of adding single-joint exercises to a multi-joint exercise resistance training program on upper body muscle strength and size in trained men.”  “ Trained men” as in two years experience in resistance training, as described in the study.

Still waiting on your definitive theory of hypertrophic response to exercise..

So what if some subjects had been lifting weights for 2 years. Big deal. Let us see a study with subjects who are at least intermediate bodybuilders. Those exercise scientists have little clue about hypertrophy.

[NordicNerd]

I read all three abstracts and they probably have little or no relevance for bodybuilders. Studies done with untrained subjects are useless especially as the length of the study is less than 3 months.
...

I have to agree on this. Beginners will respond on almost any program. Beginners only have to train consistently and they get results.

The problem is how to keep growing rather than getting stuck at a plateau when you have been training for more than a year.

NN

[werewolf operative]

The late great Don Ross once told me that he was a fan of going hard,heavy and intense to failure on isolation exercises primarily instead of using compounds. I myself have implemented his advice for the past 20 years and swear by it.

Do you look as bad as he did?

[Thin Lizzy]

I have to agree on this. Beginners will respond on almost any program. Beginners only have to train consistently and they get results.

The problem is how to keep growing rather than getting stuck at a plateau when you have been training for more than a year.

NN

The amount of lean muscle mass that a natty can gain has always been overstated. The way you keep growing is to use steroids.

As far as the “theory” of hypertrophy what you want is powerful muscle contractions. Too low of a rep range and you compromise speed. Too high and you compromise force. That’s why the time-tested rep scheme has always been in the 8 to 12 range.

Regarding compound versus isolation, when you consider the amount of weight you can use doing overhead presses versus side lateral raises, it’s not hard to see why compounds are more effective for building size.

[IRON CROSS]

Vince does not have a theory. He has a "hypothesis" at best.

 
 

[IRON CROSS]

Those exercise scientists have little clue about hypertrophy.

Oh my good, the Aussie Institute of Sports is still ignoring this H. rubbish