Author Topic: No one here could blame Iran for re-starting their nuclear weapons program  (Read 4435 times)

Straw Man

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right?

We made a deal and they complied with it (which we verified) and we chose to renege.

Also Airbus should just go ahead with their deal to sell planes to Tehran

Neither France nor Iran reneged on the deal so hard to conclude that they shouldn't proceed with the sale regardless of US sanctions







chaos

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Cool story bro
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Straw Man

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Cool story bro

thanks bro

here's more

Quote
"The President of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran has been tasked with taking all necessary steps in preparation for Iran to pursue industrial-scale enrichment without any restrictions, using the results of the latest research and development of Iran's brave nuclear scientists," the statement said. 

Germany and France said they would seek to shield European companies from U.S. sanctions, which would prohibit companies that do business in Iran from using the U.S. financial system.

And Russian President Vladimir Putin has spoken to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Turkey’s President Recep Erdogan about how to save the 2015 agreement with Iran, according to Russia's official press agency TASS. Putin has long advocated for a new financial system with China that would circumvent the reach of U.S. sanctions, which also target his country.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-preps-industrial-scale-nuke-production-after-us-leaves-nuclear-deal/ar-AAx8ieq?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

chaos

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Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Straw Man

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I guess the entire world does revolve around the United States and our decisions. They hang off our every action. 8)

they certainly have to react to it

that's obvious

I know our Putin lovers on this board would agree with his goal to get around US sanctions and now we've given him and our allies some common ground

winning

Coach is Back!

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James Taylor to the rescue...


Pray_4_War

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When you are a liberal the policies, people, organizations, and countries that you end up taking sides with are really interesting.  

It's amazing what you find yourself making excuses for.

Vince G, CSN MFT

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right?

We made a deal and they complied with it (which we verified) and we chose to renege.

Also Airbus should just go ahead with their deal to sell planes to Tehran

Neither France nor Iran reneged on the deal so hard to conclude that they shouldn't proceed with the sale regardless of US sanctions


They never stopped, jackass




A

Agnostic007

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When you are a liberal the policies, people, organizations, and countries that you end up taking sides with are really interesting.  

It's amazing what you find yourself making excuses for.

Isn't it? It amazes me what some people will attempt to justify for one reason or another when it's obvious to a reasonable person there often is no justification

Pray_4_War

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Isn't it? It amazes me what some people will attempt to justify for one reason or another when it's obvious to a reasonable person there often is no justification


Agnostic007

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Just sayin' we've all heard some pretty ridiculous excuses for some outlandish things.. 

Slapper

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We made a deal and they complied with it (which we verified)[...]

I'm sorry, they did. W. H. A. T.?

Imagine you find out your kid is doing meth. Your kid, just to get the monkey off his back and to be able to continue to smoke that shit all the while living in his/her parent's house and stealing money from them, agrees to a room inspection that only involves the spaces under the mattress and right behind the TV. THIS is the SHIT that Obama-The-Fake signed.

If WE ALL are delusional enough to think that the Iranian authorities were not hiding nuclear material in military bases just because our FAKE ex-president, the one that said one thing and then proceeded to do another, said the Iranians spoke to him "from the heart," we deserve what's coming.

Do you know what the Iranian authorities did when the inspectors asked them to grant them access to two CIVILIAN compounds the inspectors knew had nuclear material in them? They immediately turned them into military facilities so as to impede access.

This is THE SHIT we are dealing with.

chaos

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I'm sorry, they did. W. H. A. T.?

Imagine you find out your kid is doing meth. Your kid, just to get the monkey off his back and to be able to continue to smoke that shit all the while living in his/her parent's house and stealing money from them, agrees to a room inspection that only involves the spaces under the mattress and right behind the TV. THIS is the SHIT that Obama-The-Fake signed.

If WE ALL are delusional enough to think that the Iranian authorities were not hiding nuclear material in military bases just because our FAKE ex-president, the one that said one thing and then proceeded to do another, said the Iranians spoke to him "from the heart," we deserve what's coming.

Do you know what the Iranian authorities did when the inspectors asked them to grant them access to two CIVILIAN compounds the inspectors knew had nuclear material in them? They immediately turned them into military facilities so as to impede access.

This is THE SHIT we are dealing with.
Unfortunately, people like straw don't care about this, they only care because Trump was involved.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

loco

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"In making my decision, I examined this deal in three parts: nuclear restrictions on Iran in the first ten years, nuclear restrictions on Iran after ten years, and non-nuclear components and consequences of a deal. In each case I have asked: are we better off with the agreement or without it?

In the first ten years of the deal, there are serious weaknesses in the agreement. First, inspections are not “anywhere, anytime”; the 24-day delay before we can inspect is troubling. While inspectors would likely be able to detect radioactive isotopes at a site after 24 days, that delay would enable Iran to escape detection of any illicit building and improving of possible military dimensions (PMD) – the tools that go into building a bomb but don’t emit radioactivity.

Furthermore, even when we detect radioactivity at a site where Iran is illicitly advancing its bomb-making capability, the 24-day delay would hinder our ability to determine precisely what was being done at that site.

Even more troubling is the fact that the U.S. cannot demand inspections unilaterally. By requiring the majority of the 8-member Joint Commission, and assuming that China, Russia, and Iran will not cooperate, inspections would require the votes of all three European members of the P5+1 as well as the EU representative. It is reasonable to fear that, once the Europeans become entangled in lucrative economic relations with Iran, they may well be inclined not to rock the boat by voting to allow inspections.

Additionally, the “snapback” provisions in the agreement seem cumbersome and difficult to use. While the U.S. could unilaterally cause snapback of all sanctions, there will be instances where it would be more appropriate to snapback some but not all of the sanctions, because the violation is significant but not severe. A partial snapback of multilateral sanctions could be difficult to obtain, because the U.S. would require the cooperation of other nations. If the U.S. insists on snapback of all the provisions, which it can do unilaterally, and the Europeans, Russians, or Chinese feel that is too severe a punishment, they may not comply.

Those who argue for the agreement say it is better to have an imperfect deal than to have nothing; that without the agreement, there would be no inspections, no snapback. When you consider only this portion of the deal – nuclear restrictions for the first ten years – that line of thinking is plausible, but even for this part of the agreement, the weaknesses mentioned above make this argument less compelling.

Second, we must evaluate how this deal would restrict Iran’s nuclear development after ten years.

Supporters argue that after ten years, a future President would be in no weaker a position than we are today to prevent Iran from racing to the bomb. That argument discounts the current sanctions regime. After fifteen years of relief from sanctions, Iran would be stronger financially and better able to advance a robust nuclear program. Even more importantly, the agreement would allow Iran, after ten to fifteen years, to be a nuclear threshold state with the blessing of the world community. Iran would have a green light to be as close, if not closer to possessing a nuclear weapon than it is today. And the ability to thwart Iran if it is intent on becoming a nuclear power would have less moral and economic force.

If Iran’s true intent is to get a nuclear weapon, under this agreement, it must simply exercise patience. After ten years, it can be very close to achieving that goal, and, unlike its current unsanctioned pursuit of a nuclear weapon, Iran’s nuclear program will be codified in an agreement signed by the United States and other nations. To me, after ten years, if Iran is the same nation as it is today, we will be worse off with this agreement than without it.

In addition, we must consider the non-nuclear elements of the agreement. This aspect of the deal gives me the most pause. For years, Iran has used military force and terrorism to expand its influence in the Middle East, actively supporting military or terrorist actions in Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, and Gaza. That is why the U.S. has labeled Iran as one of only three nations in the world who are “state sponsors of terrorism.” Under this agreement, Iran would receive at least $50 billion dollars in the near future and would undoubtedly use some of that money to redouble its efforts to create even more trouble in the Middle East, and, perhaps, beyond.

To reduce the pain of sanctions, the Supreme Leader had to lean left and bend to the moderates in his country. It seems logical that to counterbalance, he will lean right and give the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (IRGC) and the hardliners resources so that they can pursue their number one goal: strengthening Iran’s armed forces and pursuing even more harmful military and terrorist actions.

Finally, the hardliners can use the freed-up funds to build an ICBM on their own as soon as sanctions are lifted (and then augment their ICBM capabilities in 8 years after the ban on importing ballistic weaponry is lifted), threatening the United States. Restrictions should have been put in place limiting how Iran could use its new resources.

When it comes to the non-nuclear aspects of the deal, I think there is a strong case that we are better off without an agreement than with one.

Using the proponents’ overall standard – which is not whether the agreement is ideal, but whether we are better with or without it – it seems to me, when it comes to the nuclear aspects of the agreement within ten years, we might be slightly better off with it. However, when it comes to the nuclear aspects after ten years and the non-nuclear aspects, we would be better off without it.

Ultimately, in my view, whether one supports or opposes the resolution of disapproval depends on how one thinks Iran will behave under this agreement.

If one thinks Iran will moderate, that contact with the West and a decrease in economic and political isolation will soften Iran’s hardline positions, one should approve the agreement.  After all, a moderate Iran is less likely to exploit holes in the inspection and sanctions regime, is less likely to seek to become a threshold nuclear power after ten years, and is more likely to use its newfound resources for domestic growth, not international adventurism.

But if one feels that Iranian leaders will not moderate and their unstated but very real goal is to get relief from the onerous sanctions, while still retaining their nuclear ambitions and their ability to increase belligerent activities in the Middle East and elsewhere, then one should conclude that it would be better not to approve this agreement.

Admittedly, no one can tell with certainty which way Iran will go. It is true that Iran has a large number of people who want their government to decrease its isolation from the world and focus on economic advancement at home. But it is also true that this desire has been evident in Iran for thirty-five years, yet the Iranian leaders have held a tight and undiminished grip on Iran, successfully maintaining their brutal, theocratic dictatorship with little threat. Who’s to say this dictatorship will not prevail for another ten, twenty, or thirty years?

To me, the very real risk that Iran will not moderate and will, instead, use the agreement to pursue its nefarious goals is too great.

Therefore, I will vote to disapprove the agreement, not because I believe war is a viable or desirable option, nor to challenge the path of diplomacy. It is because I believe Iran will not change, and under this agreement it will be able to achieve its dual goals of eliminating sanctions while ultimately retaining its nuclear and non-nuclear power. Better to keep U.S. sanctions in place, strengthen them, enforce secondary sanctions on other nations, and pursue the hard-trodden path of diplomacy once more, difficult as it may be.

For all of these reasons, I believe the vote to disapprove is the right one."

Charles Ellis Schume

My Position on the Iran Deal

08.06.15




https://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/my-position-on-the-iran-deal

Straw Man

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Unfortunately, people like straw don't care about this, they only care because Trump was involved.

I'm sorry, they did. W. H. A. T.?

Imagine you find out your kid is doing meth. Your kid, just to get the monkey off his back and to be able to continue to smoke that shit all the while living in his/her parent's house and stealing money from them, agrees to a room inspection that only involves the spaces under the mattress and right behind the TV. THIS is the SHIT that Obama-The-Fake signed.

If WE ALL are delusional enough to think that the Iranian authorities were not hiding nuclear material in military bases just because our FAKE ex-president, the one that said one thing and then proceeded to do another, said the Iranians spoke to him "from the heart," we deserve what's coming.

Do you know what the Iranian authorities did when the inspectors asked them to grant them access to two CIVILIAN compounds the inspectors knew had nuclear material in them? They immediately turned them into military facilities so as to impede access.

This is THE SHIT we are dealing with.

Mike Pompeo testified last month that Iran was in full compliance with JCPA

those are the rules that we set up


Irongrip400

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"In making my decision, I examined this deal in three parts: nuclear restrictions on Iran in the first ten years, nuclear restrictions on Iran after ten years, and non-nuclear components and consequences of a deal. In each case I have asked: are we better off with the agreement or without it?

In the first ten years of the deal, there are serious weaknesses in the agreement. First, inspections are not “anywhere, anytime”; the 24-day delay before we can inspect is troubling. While inspectors would likely be able to detect radioactive isotopes at a site after 24 days, that delay would enable Iran to escape detection of any illicit building and improving of possible military dimensions (PMD) – the tools that go into building a bomb but don’t emit radioactivity.

Furthermore, even when we detect radioactivity at a site where Iran is illicitly advancing its bomb-making capability, the 24-day delay would hinder our ability to determine precisely what was being done at that site.

Even more troubling is the fact that the U.S. cannot demand inspections unilaterally. By requiring the majority of the 8-member Joint Commission, and assuming that China, Russia, and Iran will not cooperate, inspections would require the votes of all three European members of the P5+1 as well as the EU representative. It is reasonable to fear that, once the Europeans become entangled in lucrative economic relations with Iran, they may well be inclined not to rock the boat by voting to allow inspections.

Additionally, the “snapback” provisions in the agreement seem cumbersome and difficult to use. While the U.S. could unilaterally cause snapback of all sanctions, there will be instances where it would be more appropriate to snapback some but not all of the sanctions, because the violation is significant but not severe. A partial snapback of multilateral sanctions could be difficult to obtain, because the U.S. would require the cooperation of other nations. If the U.S. insists on snapback of all the provisions, which it can do unilaterally, and the Europeans, Russians, or Chinese feel that is too severe a punishment, they may not comply.

Those who argue for the agreement say it is better to have an imperfect deal than to have nothing; that without the agreement, there would be no inspections, no snapback. When you consider only this portion of the deal – nuclear restrictions for the first ten years – that line of thinking is plausible, but even for this part of the agreement, the weaknesses mentioned above make this argument less compelling.

Second, we must evaluate how this deal would restrict Iran’s nuclear development after ten years.

Supporters argue that after ten years, a future President would be in no weaker a position than we are today to prevent Iran from racing to the bomb. That argument discounts the current sanctions regime. After fifteen years of relief from sanctions, Iran would be stronger financially and better able to advance a robust nuclear program. Even more importantly, the agreement would allow Iran, after ten to fifteen years, to be a nuclear threshold state with the blessing of the world community. Iran would have a green light to be as close, if not closer to possessing a nuclear weapon than it is today. And the ability to thwart Iran if it is intent on becoming a nuclear power would have less moral and economic force.

If Iran’s true intent is to get a nuclear weapon, under this agreement, it must simply exercise patience. After ten years, it can be very close to achieving that goal, and, unlike its current unsanctioned pursuit of a nuclear weapon, Iran’s nuclear program will be codified in an agreement signed by the United States and other nations. To me, after ten years, if Iran is the same nation as it is today, we will be worse off with this agreement than without it.

In addition, we must consider the non-nuclear elements of the agreement. This aspect of the deal gives me the most pause. For years, Iran has used military force and terrorism to expand its influence in the Middle East, actively supporting military or terrorist actions in Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, and Gaza. That is why the U.S. has labeled Iran as one of only three nations in the world who are “state sponsors of terrorism.” Under this agreement, Iran would receive at least $50 billion dollars in the near future and would undoubtedly use some of that money to redouble its efforts to create even more trouble in the Middle East, and, perhaps, beyond.

To reduce the pain of sanctions, the Supreme Leader had to lean left and bend to the moderates in his country. It seems logical that to counterbalance, he will lean right and give the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (IRGC) and the hardliners resources so that they can pursue their number one goal: strengthening Iran’s armed forces and pursuing even more harmful military and terrorist actions.

Finally, the hardliners can use the freed-up funds to build an ICBM on their own as soon as sanctions are lifted (and then augment their ICBM capabilities in 8 years after the ban on importing ballistic weaponry is lifted), threatening the United States. Restrictions should have been put in place limiting how Iran could use its new resources.

When it comes to the non-nuclear aspects of the deal, I think there is a strong case that we are better off without an agreement than with one.

Using the proponents’ overall standard – which is not whether the agreement is ideal, but whether we are better with or without it – it seems to me, when it comes to the nuclear aspects of the agreement within ten years, we might be slightly better off with it. However, when it comes to the nuclear aspects after ten years and the non-nuclear aspects, we would be better off without it.

Ultimately, in my view, whether one supports or opposes the resolution of disapproval depends on how one thinks Iran will behave under this agreement.

If one thinks Iran will moderate, that contact with the West and a decrease in economic and political isolation will soften Iran’s hardline positions, one should approve the agreement.  After all, a moderate Iran is less likely to exploit holes in the inspection and sanctions regime, is less likely to seek to become a threshold nuclear power after ten years, and is more likely to use its newfound resources for domestic growth, not international adventurism.

But if one feels that Iranian leaders will not moderate and their unstated but very real goal is to get relief from the onerous sanctions, while still retaining their nuclear ambitions and their ability to increase belligerent activities in the Middle East and elsewhere, then one should conclude that it would be better not to approve this agreement.

Admittedly, no one can tell with certainty which way Iran will go. It is true that Iran has a large number of people who want their government to decrease its isolation from the world and focus on economic advancement at home. But it is also true that this desire has been evident in Iran for thirty-five years, yet the Iranian leaders have held a tight and undiminished grip on Iran, successfully maintaining their brutal, theocratic dictatorship with little threat. Who’s to say this dictatorship will not prevail for another ten, twenty, or thirty years?

To me, the very real risk that Iran will not moderate and will, instead, use the agreement to pursue its nefarious goals is too great.

Therefore, I will vote to disapprove the agreement, not because I believe war is a viable or desirable option, nor to challenge the path of diplomacy. It is because I believe Iran will not change, and under this agreement it will be able to achieve its dual goals of eliminating sanctions while ultimately retaining its nuclear and non-nuclear power. Better to keep U.S. sanctions in place, strengthen them, enforce secondary sanctions on other nations, and pursue the hard-trodden path of diplomacy once more, difficult as it may be.

For all of these reasons, I believe the vote to disapprove is the right one."

Charles Ellis Schume

My Position on the Iran Deal

08.06.15




https://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/my-position-on-the-iran-deal

Lol, I was reading this thinking "who the fuck ghost-wrote this thing for Trump?"  Got to the end and realized  ;D

mazrim

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Mike Pompeo testified last month that Iran was in full compliance with JCPA

those are the rules that we set up


Not "we". Only a "few" and hence another reason why Trump was voted in to get rid of another stupid decision.



loco

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Lol, I was reading this thinking "who the fuck ghost-wrote this thing for Trump?"  Got to the end and realized  ;D

 ;D

Yamcha

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https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/trump-orders-u-turn-to-get-china-s-zte-back-into-business-1.3493787


Trump orders U-turn to get China’s ZTE back into business
Telecom group hit by US clampdown works with Denis O’Brien’s Digicel
.
.
Sanctions violation

ZTE has been trying to resolve the blockade that Trump’s commerce department imposed in April as punishment for violating the terms of a 2017 sanctions settlement, then lying about it. The department banned shipments of US technology to ZTE for seven years, saying the company had failed to reprimand employees who violated US trade controls on Iran and North Korea.

That cut off access to the US technology it needs to build most of its products, from Qualcomm’s semiconductors to optical chips from Lumentum Holdings.

In an April 16th statement the US commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, said ZTE made false statements to the US government and “covered up the fact” that the company paid full bonuses to employees that had engaged in illegal conduct. “This egregious behaviour cannot be ignored,” Mr Ross said.

Denis O'Brien - Look into his ties with the Clintons & their Haiti "Relief" efforts
a

Straw Man

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Not "we". Only a "few" and hence another reason why Trump was voted in to get rid of another stupid decision.




yep, just a few

US, UK, France, China, Russia and Germany

Iran  was in compliance and Trumptard reneged

Today is was reported that Trumptard is talking about sanction our European allies

Good luck with that

Yamcha

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yep, just a few

US, UK, France, China, Russia and Germany

Iran  was in compliance and Trumptard reneged

Today is was reported that Trumptard is talking about sanction our European allies

Good luck with that

The ones that were reportedly bribed to accept the deal?
a

Straw Man

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The ones that were reportedly bribed to accept the deal?

LOL - sure thing


Yamcha

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Aside from not knowing which of  them is the bigger slimeball the significant issue here is that it appears that at the same time as banning trade with Iran, extending that ban to 3rd party countries Mr Trump seems to be advocating an exception for a company that has previously defied a previous ban

it's cute that you give a shit about "3rd party countries" - stop virtue signaling;  do you really want to mimic the path that these euro countries have taken as of late?

do you think the exception for ZTE helps or hurts US corporations/workers?
a

IroNat

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The nature of international politics is to do whatever is in the best interests of your own country, regardless of the interests of anybody else.

Iran has never stopped it's nuke program.  It would be against their self-interest.

Yamcha

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What I dont understand is why Mr trump is supporting this company

Ask Qualcomm
a