31 years ago today Nov 22 1986, Mike Tyson becomes the youngest HW champ

[oldschoolfan]

as a long time boxing fan, to me tyson wasted his own talent, for a span of 3 years he was untouchable. by his own admission he stopped training hard. holmes probably the most underated.

[Humble Narcissist]

Yes, if Tyson would have stayed with Kevin Rooney for training and if Cus D'Amato hadn't died early who knows.

[plebian]

Tyson went the distance with bums like Mitch Green.  The jab from tall fighters like Buster Douglas and Lennox Lewis were Tyson's Krytonite.  His defense against bums was awesome in the mid '80's I agree.  A prime Tony Tucker, are you serious?  Larry Holmes as an old man.  Berbeck and "Bone Crusher" Smith along with tiny little Spinks were great exciting fights to see mediocre fighters get knocked out.

If Tyson fought a decade earlier against a prime Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Liston, etc, he would have had serious problems.  Even a prime Gerry Cooney would have given him fits.  The mid 80's was very weak for heavyweight boxers so he came around at the perfect time.  Not trying to shit on Tyson as he was my favorite boxer growing up but even he has admitted he was not close to the best of all time in interviews.  The fact that he is honest and humble makes me respect him even more.

Its hard to say the mid 80s was "weak" in the sense of talent level. Its hard to produce any solid rationale for why that would be. More realistically, the HW division was regarded as weak simply because there was a massive decline in household popularity before Tyson came along and (through brilliant marketing employed by his original management) revitalized viewing figures and became literally the 2nd most recognizable athlete in the world next to Ali. One of the reasons promoters from that era talk about is the lack of personalities. The golden era isnt just marked by great boxers - it was marked by big personalities and big rivalries.

I agree Ali and Foreman would've given tyson trouble. Ali mostly because he was durable, his most underrated quality that allowed him to have a 2nd career Not so much Liston and certainly not Cooney. Cooney has been dropped by guys who aren't even known as punchers.

While i think most people overrate Tyson because of the success of how he was marketed, I think you on the other hand are underrating him in a bit of an exaggerated manner. He would do well in any era, because he was such a physical specimen and because of the systematic development D'amato put he through.

[Mothballs]

Its hard to say the mid 80s was "weak" in the sense of talent level. Its hard to produce any solid rationale for why that would be. More realistically, the HW division was regarded as weak simply because there was a massive decline in household popularity before Tyson came along and (through brilliant marketing employed by his original management) revitalized viewing figures and became literally the 2nd most recognizable athlete in the world next to Ali. One of the reasons promoters from that era talk about is the lack of personalities. The golden era isnt just marked by great boxers - it was marked by big personalities and big rivalries.

I agree Ali and Foreman would've given tyson trouble. Ali mostly because he was durable, his most underrated quality that allowed him to have a 2nd career Not so much Liston and certainly not Cooney. Cooney has been dropped by guys who aren't even known as punchers.

While i think most people overrate Tyson because of the success of how he was marketed, I think you on the other hand are underrating him in a bit of an exaggerated manner. He would do well in any era, because he was such a physical specimen and because of the systematic development D'amato put he through.

The way you know the late 80s was weak is that other than Larry Holmes, no fighter from the era makes anyone’s list of top 50 heavyweights. So basically, Tyson beat one ‘top heavyweight’ at the tail end of his career and a bunch of journeymen. His record against top heavyweights is a staggering 1-4. To think he could lose to a bum like Buster Douglas and yet somehow have beaten Muhammad Ali is hilarious.

[Darren Avey]

To think that was peak Mental and physical Tyson V DOuglas is hilarious.
There are accounts of him drinking vodka, snorting coke and fucking prozzys 24 hours before the fight! And that's not excuses from his team that hotel staff, security guys etc who witnessed it.
It was a long time ago but I remember one security guy who saw the way Tyson was behaving put money on Douglas.

[Humble Narcissist]

Its hard to say the mid 80s was "weak" in the sense of talent level. Its hard to produce any solid rationale for why that would be. More realistically, the HW division was regarded as weak simply because there was a massive decline in household popularity before Tyson came along and (through brilliant marketing employed by his original management) revitalized viewing figures and became literally the 2nd most recognizable athlete in the world next to Ali. One of the reasons promoters from that era talk about is the lack of personalities. The golden era isnt just marked by great boxers - it was marked by big personalities and big rivalries.

I agree Ali and Foreman would've given tyson trouble. Ali mostly because he was durable, his most underrated quality that allowed him to have a 2nd career Not so much Liston and certainly not Cooney. Cooney has been dropped by guys who aren't even known as punchers.

While i think most people overrate Tyson because of the success of how he was marketed, I think you on the other hand are underrating him in a bit of an exaggerated manner. He would do well in any era, because he was such a physical specimen and because of the systematic development D'amato put he through.

Too bad we can't take all the fighters from the past and have them fight each other in their prime.  Imagine some of the fights:

Frazier vs Tyson (this would be a bloodbath)

Ali vs Hollyfield

Lennox Lewis vs Ken Norton

Sonny Liston vs Riddick Bowe

and how about Tyson vs Jack Dempsey

[old-school-lifter]

im not sure what having “short arms” being too short  has too do with being considered one of the best of all time

Going on that logic I guess Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, jake lamota, etc etc were sub par fighters because they were short.

If we are talking about a PRIME mike Tyson his Cardio was more than sufficient in his PRIME (1980s) he went the distance several times and still had gas in the tank.

The being “hit” bye the jab comment is abit bizarre...the Jab never bothered him one little bit in his prime simply because he very rarely EVER got hit bye the jab (or anything else on a consistent basis) his defence was incredible in the 80s...

and that’s the the very thing most people don’t understand about him back then....it was his DEFENCE that set him apart from the top heavyweights of the era and for every punch the top fighters in the 80s would miss he’d hit them back twice as hard and fast...his foot speed and hand speed were incredible (in his prime)

A case can definitely be made about the bully angle but let’s not forget a lot of heavyweights did not fear him and still got knocked out, mikes moment of “truths” he came up short after Douglas showed the way but it’s amazing how everyone “jumped” ship on him when he started losing forgetting the fact he SINGLE handily Unified all 3 belts beating Berbick, Smith and a prime Tony tucker doing it and anilated Spinks, Bruno, Williams, etc.

After 1990 his regression was predictable...once that head movement stopped...he started catching punches his style was always based on hit...and not getting hit followed up with incredible hand speed and power, the closest thing too Tyson was Roy jones in the sense that in his prime...nobody could actually HIT HIM...and that’s what made those 2 so special...

but a lot of people don’t understand that...both of them were so good that when they actually started getting distracted, not taking the game seriously, or just flat out losing the desire too dedicate and train properly...they got hit...and when that happens consistently you’ll lose.

Everything is judged and rated after the facts and the final fact for Tyson is imo he will not be seriously considered in the top 10 all time greats because of those loses in key moments AFTER 1990...

but if we are talking about a absolutley Prime mike Tyson, the youth, defensive genius, hand speed, foot speed, power in both hands, right hand, left hook, uppercut and ruthless body shots....THAT Tyson imo was as great as ANY of the all time greats.

After 1990....well...pick a number how far down the list you’ll rate him.

great and accurate analysis right here

prime Tyson-  very good defense, head movement, hard to hit with a clean shot and had a great chin , also forgotten were his very fast hand and foot speed and ability to counterpunch

[Humble Narcissist]

Watch the Teddy Atlas interview with Joe Rogan on Youtube.  He completely exposes Tyson for what he really was, a physical phenom with no self discipline.  Anytime the fight didn't go exactly as planned he lost.  0-5 all time in real fights.  Evander Hollyfield was a much better boxer and a true ring warrior.

[Darren Avey]

Watch the Teddy Atlas interview with Joe Rogan on Youtube.  He completely exposes Tyson for what he really was, a physical phenom with no self discipline.  Anytime the fight didn't go exactly as planned he lost.  0-5 all time in real fights.  Evander Hollyfield was a much better boxer and a true ring warrior.

ATlas is a bitter sack of shit with a grudge against Tyson

[Humble Narcissist]

ATlas is a bitter sack of shit with a grudge against Tyson

And he admits that in the interview.

[Earl1972]

agree with Darren Avey here

Lewis  was very overrated- the Tyson fight a shot , old Tyson who was may be 30% of prime Tyson gave prime Lewis all he could handle in the 1st round of their fight. Prime Tyson would have KO'd LEwis in under 6 rounds

never fought anybody decent in their prime
 
Lewis had a weak chin- bad one punch KO losses to McCall and Rahman

a fading Ray Mercer beat Lewis- that was such a robbery

lewis knocked out bowe in the olympics

he avenged his losses in dominant fashion

he is better than every 80's and 90's heavyweight

tyson was scared to fight him and ducked him for years, same thing with holyfield

that says it all

E

[Humble Narcissist]

lewis knocked out bowe in the olympics

he avenged his losses in dominant fashion

he is better than every 80's and 90's heavyweight

tyson was scared to fight him and ducked him for years, same thing with holyfield

that says it all

E

Yes and the people in the boxing industry consider him one of if not THE most underrated champs in history.

[Danimal77]

Anyone who doesn't have Ali and Joe Louis in the top two slots is most likely on the spectrum.

Joe Frazier needs to be up there as well.

[Humble Narcissist]

Frasier should have won 2 of the 3 fights against Ali.

[AbrahamG]

Yes and the people in the boxing industry consider him one of if not THE most underrated champs in history.

Exactly this.  Plus, the fighters of the 90's era knew what was up.  David Tua was a beast at the time Lennox fought him.  Lennox touched his body in round 2 and the fight was taken out of Tua.  Tua had just fought Ike Ibeabuchi in probably the best 10 round heavyweight I've ever seen.  Lennox did the same to Holyfield early in their first fight.  He practically lifted him off the ground with a body shot.  Scott Ledux, a tough guy from the 70's & 80's said he did a very light sparring session with Lennox.  He said Lennox jabbed him in the arm and he wanted to cry.  Razor Ruddock went 19 toe to toe rounds with a still young, very good Mike Tyson.  Lewis obliterated him in under two rounds.  Golota just got done dominating Bowe twice.  Guess what?  First round annihilation.  He ruined Michael Grant, who was looking like the real deal until Lennox got him.  An old and woefully unprepared Lewis almost took Vitali Klitchko's eye.  He may have been down four rounds to two (I had it even) but make no mistake, Vitali was done.  He was going to be decapitated in round 7.  Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight since Larry Holmes.  Period. 

[hardgainerj]

prime damato tyson finishes both fury and wilder

[DooM_]

Exactly this.  Plus, the fighters of the 90's era knew what was up.  David Tua was a beast at the time Lennox fought him.  Lennox touched his body in round 2 and the fight was taken out of Tua.  Tua had just fought Ike Ibeabuchi in probably the best 10 round heavyweight I've ever seen.  Lennox did the same to Holyfield early in their first fight.  He practically lifted him off the ground with a body shot.  Scott Ledux, a tough guy from the 70's & 80's said he did a very light sparring session with Lennox.  He said Lennox jabbed him in the arm and he wanted to cry.  Razor Ruddock went 19 toe to toe rounds with a still young, very good Mike Tyson.  Lewis obliterated him in under two rounds.  Golota just got done dominating Bowe twice.  Guess what?  First round annihilation.  He ruined Michael Grant, who was looking like the real deal until Lennox got him.  An old and woefully unprepared Lewis almost took Vitali Klitchko's eye.  He may have been down four rounds to two (I had it even) but make no mistake, Vitali was done.  He was going to be decapitated in round 7.  Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight since Larry Holmes.  Period. 

lennox lewis . . . all he had going for him was size , but boxing skills ??

[Humble Narcissist]

Exactly this.  Plus, the fighters of the 90's era knew what was up.  David Tua was a beast at the time Lennox fought him.  Lennox touched his body in round 2 and the fight was taken out of Tua.  Tua had just fought Ike Ibeabuchi in probably the best 10 round heavyweight I've ever seen.  Lennox did the same to Holyfield early in their first fight.  He practically lifted him off the ground with a body shot.  Scott Ledux, a tough guy from the 70's & 80's said he did a very light sparring session with Lennox.  He said Lennox jabbed him in the arm and he wanted to cry.  Razor Ruddock went 19 toe to toe rounds with a still young, very good Mike Tyson.  Lewis obliterated him in under two rounds.  Golota just got done dominating Bowe twice.  Guess what?  First round annihilation.  He ruined Michael Grant, who was looking like the real deal until Lennox got him.  An old and woefully unprepared Lewis almost took Vitali Klitchko's eye.  He may have been down four rounds to two (I had it even) but make no mistake, Vitali was done.  He was going to be decapitated in round 7.  Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight since Larry Holmes.  Period. 

In the 90's me and my friends always thought Lewis was ducking all the other champs. It wasn't until later that I found out the other guys were ducking him.

[Darren Avey]

Exactly this.  Plus, the fighters of the 90's era knew what was up.  David Tua was a beast at the time Lennox fought him.  Lennox touched his body in round 2 and the fight was taken out of Tua.  Tua had just fought Ike Ibeabuchi in probably the best 10 round heavyweight I've ever seen.  Lennox did the same to Holyfield early in their first fight.  He practically lifted him off the ground with a body shot.  Scott Ledux, a tough guy from the 70's & 80's said he did a very light sparring session with Lennox.  He said Lennox jabbed him in the arm and he wanted to cry.  Razor Ruddock went 19 toe to toe rounds with a still young, very good Mike Tyson.  Lewis obliterated him in under two rounds.  Golota just got done dominating Bowe twice.  Guess what?  First round annihilation.  He ruined Michael Grant, who was looking like the real deal until Lennox got him.  An old and woefully unprepared Lewis almost took Vitali Klitchko's eye.  He may have been down four rounds to two (I had it even) but make no mistake, Vitali was done.  He was going to be decapitated in round 7.  Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight since Larry Holmes.  Period.  

Tua hadnt "just" fought Ike!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tua Lewis was in 2000, Tua Ike was in 1997!
Also no one who had a clue about boxing thought Grant was the next big thing. He wasnt much more than a bum.

[Earl1972]

lennox lewis . . . all he had going for him was size , but boxing skills ??

what was wrong with his boxing skills?  he beat every single one of his opponents including guys just as big or bigger than him

E

[AbrahamG]

Tua hadnt "just" fought Ike!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tua Lewis was in 2000, Tua Ike was in 1997!
Also no one who had a clue about boxing thought Grant was the next big thing. He wasnt much more than a bum.

Still believe Tua's only loss at prior to Lewis was Ike.  My point still stands.  Michael Grant was a legit #1 contender.  He slowly fought his way up the ladder.  Lewis just ruined him.  A prepared Lennox Lewis who feared his opponent was nearly unbeatable, in any era.