Author Topic: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.  (Read 15055 times)

Primemuscle

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2018, 03:01:20 PM »
We did it in Vietnam. We did it in Iraq. And now we are doing it in Syria.

Thousand of innocent people were slaughtered then. Thousands will be slaughtered now. And under a Republican President no less.

I just don't get it.

General James Mattis just announced his retirement.

This is a very bold move on his part.

Primemuscle

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2018, 03:05:46 PM »
Who is General Maddox?

Jesus...

I think we all know he meant General James Mattis.

Primemuscle

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2018, 03:10:31 PM »
I've have often thought we (the U.S.) should stay out of other countries' business. Unfortunately, it is never as simple as that. Everything has consequences.

pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2018, 03:32:25 PM »
I'd find it hard to say the US military is underfunded.

Regarding Saddam Hussein (who the US put in power...he was our Assad) do you really believe the Middle East is more stable today with him gone?



Actually, Hussein and Iraq was a client State of the Soviet Union. Iran was our ally under Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi.  After Carter turned his back on Reza the Islamic Revolution took off with full steam and the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power and this is what led to what we have today.

IroNat

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2018, 05:05:56 PM »
Actually, Hussein and Iraq was a client State of the Soviet Union. Iran was our ally under Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi.  After Carter turned his back on Reza the Islamic Revolution took off with full steam and the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power and this is what led to what we have today.

Good one, Pellius.

After the overthrow of the Shah of Iran the US began to support Saddam and the Soviets stopped.

You are correct about the Soviets initially backing Saddam before that.

lilhawk1

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2018, 06:39:19 PM »
The best move Trump has made in office as of yet.

I don't take it for granted either. It took balls and probably < 5 people knew of it. Well planned.

Well planned?  He doesn't plan anything, he doesn't have a fuckin clue what he is doing.  He did this to appease Putin, period.  Nobody agrees with this except Russia.  Nobody does shit like this without consulting anyone like this dumbass did. 

chaos

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2018, 07:49:23 PM »
Well planned?  He doesn't plan anything, he doesn't have a fuckin clue what he is doing.  He did this to appease Putin, period.  Nobody agrees with this except Russia.  Nobody does shit like this without consulting anyone like this dumbass did. 
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

anabolicguru

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2018, 07:58:34 PM »
"Defense"?  You are a child.  Go to your room, little boy.  I merely state what I hold true.  I'm not here to change the diaper that is your mind. 

I know...You'll need to ponder that and maybe even ax yo' mammy.  Later, lib.


lol again, doesn't point out anything related to thread, but "shut up queer".  You must look as dumb as you sound, lol
I

beakdoctor

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2018, 09:57:25 PM »
Won't? It's can't. The Kurds are fierce fighters but they have neither the numbers or resources to win. It's always like that when it's a totalitarian regime versus the people.

And, the truth of the matter is, that force, or the threat of force, solves everything. Or rather wins everything. You can debate and discuss all you want but if you can't back it by a threat of force then you lose. Economic sanctions, essentially starving someone, is a form of force.

And change for good absolutely does not happen over time. Look at the world. American, a relatively peaceful, safe, free and prosperous nation is an anomaly. And it didn't just happen over time. A lot of brave and selfless men spilled their blood so that both of us can sit here in our climate controlled environment, sipping a beverage, typing of a computer.

Sorry pelli is, this is not one of your stronger posts and i think you are wrong on every point youve made here. Root causes that lead to extremism need to be addressed. Jobs, education,  strong economy, production.... how many radicals come to America with plans of pulling off another 9/11 only after they get here they find that they like strip clubs and cheeseburgers and ipods and gym memberships and getting laid and driving sports cars? More often than you think. Afghanistan has been war torn for 40 fucking years. The US has been doing the fighting for the past 20. What do you think will happen?

War is an industry. It's not meant to be "won"

fredrollon

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2018, 02:09:17 AM »
Actually, Hussein and Iraq was a client State of the Soviet Union. Iran was our ally under Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi.  After Carter turned his back on Reza the Islamic Revolution took off with full steam and the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power and this is what led to what we have today.

I don't get it.

Some of us might remember the good old days of the Iran-Iraq War of the 80's,which pitted Arabs against Persians.

At that time, the CIA,supplied arms to Iran,under Ayatollah Khomeini, and used the profits to secretly fund right-wing Contra rebels in Nicaragua.

On the other side,they also supplied intelligence to the Iraqis and looked the other way when the Iraqi army acquired chemical weapons,with the aid of western firms. These weapons were used against the Iranian army and Iranian population centres and against the Kurds(who were allies of the Iranians), turning the tide of the war in favour of the Iraqis.

The US state department even tried to pin the gas attacks against the Kurds on the Iranians. At the time it seems the US was slightly closer to Iraq than Iran and obviously did not want to get blamed for the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction:

"The U.S. State Department, in the immediate aftermath of the incident, took the official position that Iran was partly to blame. A preliminary Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) study at the time reported that Iran was responsible for the attack, an assessment which was used subsequently by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for much of the early 1990s. The CIA's senior political analyst for the Iran-Iraq war, Stephen C. Pelletiere, co-authored an unclassified analysis of the war which contained a brief summary of the DIA study's key points. Pelletiere claimed that blue discolorations around the mouths of the victims and in their extremities suggested that a blood agent using cyanide was used in the attack at Halabja, and that only Iran was known to have used blood agents during the war. No proof that Iran had previously used hydrocyanic gas, as asserted by the DIA, was ever presented."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack#Allegations_of_Iranian_involvement

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1990/11/22/iraqs-chemical-warfare/



So,without letting each country get a decisive victory in that war,the US, under Reagan, got two of the most powerful countries in the Middle East to grind each other to dust. And the policy made a lot of strategic sense. If either did achieve total supremacy over each other, they could end  up being an existential threat to neighbouring Israel or the strategic Arabian peninsula,with its massive oil and gas reserves.


That's what most people now don't get. Didn't the 2003 invasion ,with the destruction of the Iraqi Ba'ath party and the end of Sunni minority rule in Iraq, simply hand over Shiite-majority Iraq to Iran and ,so, allow Iran to potentially dominate the Middle East?


It seems the exact opposite of the cynical but effective US policy ,of the 80's.


fredrollon

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2018, 02:23:14 AM »
You are correct about the Soviets initially backing Saddam before that.

On that point,I believe  the Kurds were Marxists before the 90's and supported by the Soviets. They wanted to carve a Communist state out of eastern Turkey. So they have these ties to Russia. The Turks of course are part of NATO and longstanding US allies .


Back to Iraq and Saddam,  the French were very good friends too:





Could've been so different.......








_bruce_

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2018, 02:45:06 AM »
Sorry pelli is, this is not one of your stronger posts and i think you are wrong on every point youve made here. Root causes that lead to extremism need to be addressed. Jobs, education,  strong economy, production.... how many radicals come to America with plans of pulling off another 9/11 only after they get here they find that they like strip clubs and cheeseburgers and ipods and gym memberships and getting laid and driving sports cars? More often than you think. Afghanistan has been war torn for 40 fucking years. The US has been doing the fighting for the past 20. What do you think will happen?

War is an industry. It's not meant to be "won"


Exactly - why are the bottom people, who are fed to the monies-machine, so feverishly ignorant of that simple point?
.

Yamcha

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2018, 03:36:37 AM »
We did the absolute right thing in taking out Hussein. If we didn't, due to his expansionist policies and attacking every one of his neighbors, we would be living in a different world today and not just because of high gas prices.

Erdogan has vowed to destroy the Kurds. We have just given him the green light. I know some people don't care about the wholesale slaughter of innocent men, women, and children. You should thank God that you live in this country and not have to worry, or even care, about the suffering of others, a blessing you did nothing to earn or deserve. You just won one of life's lottery.

I care, and so do many others, about all people, not just Americans. If we can save innocent lives then we should.
We have an all-volunteer Army. Everyone who joins the military understands, or should understand, that despite all the other benefits they get, their primary duty is to defend and fight for this country for its interest. And if we are going to be a force for good in this world, and we are, then that also means defending those who are innocent and can't defend themselves.

 

 ::) ::) ::)

history is written by the victors. force for good my ass... it was a damn lie that got us into Iraq (wmd's)

and never accuse me of not loving America or appreciating her.... or else I may have to do some digging into your past posts about 15 yr old girls, etc.
a

IroNat

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #88 on: December 22, 2018, 03:59:59 AM »
The enemy of my enemy is my friend until he becomes my enemy then the enemy of him is my friend until he becomes my enemy and then the... :P

Conker

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2018, 05:13:23 AM »
Sorry pelli is, this is not one of your stronger posts and i think you are wrong on every point youve made here. Root causes that lead to extremism need to be addressed. Jobs, education,  strong economy, production.... how many radicals come to America with plans of pulling off another 9/11 only after they get here they find that they like strip clubs and cheeseburgers and ipods and gym memberships and getting laid and driving sports cars? More often than you think. Afghanistan has been war torn for 40 fucking years. The US has been doing the fighting for the past 20. What do you think will happen?

War is an industry. It's not meant to be "won"

if pelius had any clue what he was on about he wouldn't be talking about the kurds as the "people" . the kurds see themselves as a separate ethnic group and have no interest in toppling assad, their only goal is to secure an autonomous region in northern syria and they fight all comers.

the only reason the kurds are now being heralded as some great US ally is because they're pretty much all that's left of the resistance. all the jihadi groups that the US were covertly backing have capitulated. the kurdish fighters the US is funding are for all intents and purposes part of the same group that is also on your list of proscribed terrorist organisations!

the US aim was to see the country stay splintered into sectarian regions for as long as possible(like libya) so it would no longer be a useful iranian ally. there's an admission of exactly that in the DoD document i posted a link to earlier.

and then you have a ton of braindead sheple like pelius that actually believe US involvement in syria was some sort of humanitarian mission.


2ND COMING

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2018, 07:51:38 AM »
Well planned?  He doesn't plan anything, he doesn't have a fuckin clue what he is doing.  He did this to appease Putin, period.  Nobody agrees with this except Russia.  Nobody does shit like this without consulting anyone like this dumbass did. 


pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2018, 12:54:35 AM »
Sorry pelli is, this is not one of your stronger posts and i think you are wrong on every point youve made here. Root causes that lead to extremism need to be addressed. Jobs, education,  strong economy, production.... how many radicals come to America with plans of pulling off another 9/11 only after they get here they find that they like strip clubs and cheeseburgers and ipods and gym memberships and getting laid and driving sports cars? More often than you think. Afghanistan has been war torn for 40 fucking years. The US has been doing the fighting for the past 20. What do you think will happen?

War is an industry. It's not meant to be "won"

Sorry, you don't get jobs, education, and a strong economy in a totalitarian state.

Wars are indeed won and things change. Whether for good or bad depends on the winner and what side you are on. WW1, WW2, The Civil War, Kuwaiti War, War of 1812, Revolutionary War that created America, Mexican/American War, Spanish/American War.

Nothing to do with Banks or Bankers. Nothing to do with oil except fot Kuwait.

pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2018, 12:59:17 AM »
I don't get it.

Some of us might remember the good old days of the Iran-Iraq War of the 80's,which pitted Arabs against Persians.

At that time, the CIA,supplied arms to Iran,under Ayatollah Khomeini, and used the profits to secretly fund right-wing Contra rebels in Nicaragua.

On the other side,they also supplied intelligence to the Iraqis and looked the other way when the Iraqi army acquired chemical weapons,with the aid of western firms. These weapons were used against the Iranian army and Iranian population centres and against the Kurds(who were allies of the Iranians), turning the tide of the war in favour of the Iraqis.

The US state department even tried to pin the gas attacks against the Kurds on the Iranians. At the time it seems the US was slightly closer to Iraq than Iran and obviously did not want to get blamed for the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction:

"The U.S. State Department, in the immediate aftermath of the incident, took the official position that Iran was partly to blame. A preliminary Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) study at the time reported that Iran was responsible for the attack, an assessment which was used subsequently by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for much of the early 1990s. The CIA's senior political analyst for the Iran-Iraq war, Stephen C. Pelletiere, co-authored an unclassified analysis of the war which contained a brief summary of the DIA study's key points. Pelletiere claimed that blue discolorations around the mouths of the victims and in their extremities suggested that a blood agent using cyanide was used in the attack at Halabja, and that only Iran was known to have used blood agents during the war. No proof that Iran had previously used hydrocyanic gas, as asserted by the DIA, was ever presented."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack#Allegations_of_Iranian_involvement

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1990/11/22/iraqs-chemical-warfare/



So,without letting each country get a decisive victory in that war,the US, under Reagan, got two of the most powerful countries in the Middle East to grind each other to dust. And the policy made a lot of strategic sense. If either did achieve total supremacy over each other, they could end  up being an existential threat to neighbouring Israel or the strategic Arabian peninsula,with its massive oil and gas reserves.


That's what most people now don't get. Didn't the 2003 invasion ,with the destruction of the Iraqi Ba'ath party and the end of Sunni minority rule in Iraq, simply hand over Shiite-majority Iraq to Iran and ,so, allow Iran to potentially dominate the Middle East?


It seems the exact opposite of the cynical but effective US policy ,of the 80's.



Both were our enemies. Didn't matter that they were killing each other. We tried to get what we could out of it. The Iran Contra deal was, as Oliver North out it, "a neat idea". American hostages were freed, the war against Communist expansion was further financed.
Iran and Iraq continued to kill each other.

A neat idea.

pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2018, 01:02:57 AM »
On that point,I believe  the Kurds were Marxists before the 90's and supported by the Soviets. They wanted to carve a Communist state out of eastern Turkey. So they have these ties to Russia. The Turks of course are part of NATO and longstanding US allies .


Back to Iraq and Saddam,  the French were very good friends too:





Could've been so different.......









Didn't watch the video but very glad you are reminding people that seem to forget, or never knew, that Saddamn Hussein did build a nuclear reactor which proved that he had designs to build a nuclear weapon and control the Middle East, oil supply, and destroy Israel.

pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2018, 01:09:00 AM »
::) ::) ::)

history is written by the victors. force for good my ass... it was a damn lie that got us into Iraq (wmd's)

and never accuse me of not loving America or appreciating her.... or else I may have to do some digging into your past posts about 15 yr old girls, etc.

Imagine a world without America. Fascism, Communism, Socialism -- take your choice. And then in the same breath say you love America.

As far as your threats -- yawn. I know who I am. God knows who I am. This board knows who I am. And even you don't believe I am a pedophile. It is a meme started by ND that people use when they have nothing else. Doesn't faze me anymore. I've said some horrible things on this board. And if I had the interest and desire to go through your entire post history I'm sure I'll find some on you. But I have much better things to do.

And people say I take this board too seriously

pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #95 on: December 23, 2018, 01:16:32 AM »
if pelius had any clue what he was on about he wouldn't be talking about the kurds as the "people" . the kurds see themselves as a separate ethnic group and have no interest in toppling assad, their only goal is to secure an autonomous region in northern syria and they fight all comers.

the only reason the kurds are now being heralded as some great US ally is because they're pretty much all that's left of the resistance. all the jihadi groups that the US were covertly backing have capitulated. the kurdish fighters the US is funding are for all intents and purposes part of the same group that is also on your list of proscribed terrorist organisations!

the US aim was to see the country stay splintered into sectarian regions for as long as possible(like libya) so it would no longer be a useful iranian ally. there's an admission of exactly that in the DoD document i posted a link to earlier.

and then you have a ton of braindead sheple like pelius that actually believe US involvement in syria was some sort of humanitarian mission.



Once again you lie and just make things up. I never said the Kurds wanted to topple Assad. I never said it was a humanitarian mission.

Other than that I agree with the rest of what you said. Surprised that you have some understanding, better than most, of this situation. Maybe you're not completely hopeless.

Now get back to the chicken plant

K A N N I B A L

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2018, 01:55:32 AM »
Well planned?  He doesn't plan anything, he doesn't have a fuckin clue what he is doing.  He did this to appease Putin, period.  Nobody agrees with this except Russia.  Nobody does shit like this without consulting anyone like this dumbass did. 

Trumps fans arent exactly smart. He could murder their children and theyd find a way to call him a genius

pellius

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2018, 03:27:28 AM »
Trumps fans arent exactly smart. He could murder their children and theyd find a way to call him a genius

Hillary supporters aren't exactly smart. She could allow an American diplomat to be murdered or give classified information to our enemies and they would still vote for her.

IroNat

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2018, 04:25:07 AM »
why is Iran a bigger threat to the US than Saudi Arabia?

"cause they kicked out our boy, the Shah.

I remember in school the textbook telling us what a great guy the Shah was.

The reality was he a sick, twisted bastard.

The Saudi's are sick, twisted bastards too but they are our sick, twisted bastards (who funded and committed 9/11 and fund radical, whacked out Wahhabism).

chaos

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Re: History repeats itself. Innocent people will die.
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2018, 10:54:54 AM »
Everyone concerned about the US securing Syria and their border but not our own border ???
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!