Was Mike Mentzer Circumcised?

[Titus Pullo]

Bullshit!  His training methods were and are shit.  Not one shred of evidence that HIT is superior to any other style of training.  Mentzer was entertaining but not nearly as smart as he or anyone else thought.

Don't put words in my mouth.  I never said his training was superior.  I said most of his critics can't get beyond childish ridiculing.  Is that very difficult to understand?

You also apparently missed how I myself criticized his latter-day methods.  The only difference between me and the average "hurhur, it is bullshit!" is that I identify where he went wrong.

That said, his early stuff, which was a lot more like DC training than Dante would care to admit, WAS solid.  I am not as fond of pre-exhaustion stuff as he was, but the core of the routine which employed that "rotation for recovery" split worked for a lot of people.  And why shouldn't it?  At that stage, Mike was doing 4-8 hard sets to bodypart, not including probably that many warm up sets.  That's PLENTY fucking volume when everything is trained three times in a fortnight, the intensity is high and you're getting stronger on a regular basis.

[oldschoolfan]

The positive thing about the Mentzer video is that the reps are done slow and controlled which really seems to stress the muscle.

In contrast I read that fast negatives do damage the fibers the most but it's kinda hard to gauge what to believe. Vince and his bicep-cyborg approach are trying to be scientific but I would like to see a huge number of people visiting him, training according to his principles and then presenting their progress... otherwise it's all theory that sounds great.

bruce, great point slow reps are the best to avoid injury as well and hard as hell to do .  mikes views later on, i agree were a lil out of wack training once per week for a few sets will get you nothing, but his routines in the  70's  were quite effective.

[oldschoolfan]

Mike's mistake was taking all that speed he took to "be productive".  It fucked him up physically and mentally.  That coupled with his loss to Arnold and his subsequent inability to get over, if not "around" that, destroyed him.

Arnold took his earlier loss to Zane and used it to his benefit. Same with his loss to Sergio.  After the '80 Olympia Mike just went south and when he couldn't go any deeper, began to dig.  He had every right to complain but instead he wound up bitching.  And in the process, became one. 

I still employ his H.I.T in my training.  As for the OP's "topic"?  FTN. 

mr scott i do h.i.t training as well.of course i make sure i am thoroughly warmed up , training all out without a warm up can get you hurt, i think this is the misconception alot of people get with one all out set.

mikes routines in the 70's i think were the best.

[Humble Narcissist]

mr scott i do h.i.t training as well.of course i make sure i am thoroughly warmed up , training all out without a warm up can get you hurt, i think this is the misconception alot of people get with one all out set.

mikes routines in the 70's i think were the best.

But he built most of his mass with volume as stated before.  After he trained with Jones he seemed to go downhill fast.  He used meth to cut and used a stupid 800 calorie a day diet with almost no sleep.  He burned out only a few years after Heavy Duty and looked like shit the rest of his life.  With his genetics he could have done benches and curls with light weights and looked great into old age.

[Titus Pullo]

I respectfully disagree that he built most of his mass with volume.  He started quite young, working out with a pair of powerlifters his dad knew.  Mike said they weren't volume training, but it certainly wasn't HIT either.  They lifted in a garage three times a week, working toward big numbers on the basics.  He said he could bench and squat 350 and 500 respectively when he was only 15.

After that, by 18 or so, he WAS doing high volume.  He also said he was still progressing, but not as fast as when he powerlifted.

I agree he would have grown doing almost anything worthwhile.  I also say volume doesn't suck (produced waaaaay too many good bodybuilders), and I concur that Mike was wrong about many things.  My main objection to guys saying "Heavy Duty sucks" is mostly rooted in how one defines "Heavy Duty."  Some strawmander it to silly extremes; e.g., one set to failure with no acclimation sets once every time the planet's align just so . There were many routines he swore by that weren't that radical, especially after Dorian came along.

[Titus Pullo]

But he built most of his mass with volume as stated before.  After he trained with Jones he seemed to go downhill fast.  He used meth to cut and used a stupid 800 calorie a day diet with almost no sleep.  He burned out only a few years after Heavy Duty and looked like shit the rest of his life.  With his genetics he could have done benches and curls with light weights and looked great into old age.

No disagreement there.  The poor guy's mental issues, greatly exacerbated by using so much speed, ruined his life.  That and the chain-smoking.

[Humble Narcissist]

I respectfully disagree that he built most of his mass with volume.  He started quite young, working out with a pair of powerlifters his dad knew.  Mike said they weren't volume training, but it certainly wasn't HIT either.  They lifted in a garage three times a week, working toward big numbers on the basics.  He said he could bench and squat 350 and 500 respectively when he was only 15.

After that, by 18 or so, he WAS doing high volume.  He also said he was still progressing, but not as fast as when he powerlifted.

I agree he would have grown doing almost anything worthwhile.  I also say volume doesn't suck (produced waaaaay too many good bodybuilders), and I concur that Mike was wrong about many things.  My main objection to guys saying "Heavy Duty sucks" is mostly rooted in how one defines "Heavy Duty."  Some strawmander it to silly extremes; e.g., one set to failure with no acclimation sets once every time the planet's align just so . There were many routines he swore by that weren't that radical, especially after Dorian came along.

Volume and HIT can build a great physique but HIT guys get injured and burnout.  Haney, Zane, Arnold, Scott, Pearl, Ray, etc, etc,etc all trained volume and never had any torn muscles or serious injuries.  Why train balls to the wall (whether volume or HIT) and destroy your body like Platz, Mentzer, Coleman and Yates did?  As Lee Haney said, "stimulate don't annihilate!"

[Titus Pullo]

Volume and HIT can build a great physique but HIT guys get injured and burnout.  Haney, Zane, Arnold, Scott, Pearl, Ray, etc, etc,etc all trained volume and never had any torn muscles or serious injuries.  Why train balls to the wall (whether volume or HIT) and destroy your body like Platz, Mentzer, Coleman and Yates did?  As Lee Haney said, "stimulate don't annihilate!"

Agreed. 

[Fortress]

I respectfully disagree that he built most of his mass with volume.  He started quite young, working out with a pair of powerlifters his dad knew.  Mike said they weren't volume training, but it certainly wasn't HIT either.  They lifted in a garage three times a week, working toward big numbers on the basics.  He said he could bench and squat 350 and 500 respectively when he was only 15.

After that, by 18 or so, he WAS doing high volume.  He also said he was still progressing, but not as fast as when he powerlifted.

I agree he would have grown doing almost anything worthwhile.  I also say volume doesn't suck (produced waaaaay too many good bodybuilders), and I concur that Mike was wrong about many things.  My main objection to guys saying "Heavy Duty sucks" is mostly rooted in how one defines "Heavy Duty."  Some strawmander it to silly extremes; e.g., one set to failure with no acclimation sets once every time the planet's align just so . There were many routines he swore by that weren't that radical, especially after Dorian came along.

That mofo never benched and squatted 350 and 500 at 15. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

His and his brother’s squats were mile-high and performed in power cages with the safety rails set. Partial reps in the extreme. I’ve heard them described by folks who were THERE.

At 15, Mike would have sat on his heels with 500 ... and never came back up with the bar still on his back.

It’s like the nonsense that Arnold could press 500.

At his most gassed, he was good for a few reps in the early 400s.

Anyway, I digress ...

I met Mike in the mid-nineties and he was totalled. All fucked up.

[OneMoreRep]

Looking at these pictures and studying the business end of Mike's wiener has me thinking he was not circumcised. I thought he was Jewish.

J

Quality thread.

Strong work!

"1"

[Bevo]

He was a trainwreck in the 90ies. Just watch his video on youtube where he trains the German gaylord "Markus". Even if his overall rough look was due to stimulant abuse it seemed that his back was done for from the weights.

Disclaimer:
take your anti depressants before watching this video

He looks like a wreck and he was only in his 40’s

[Humble Narcissist]

He died shortly after that was filmed, so yeah.

[wes]

The positive thing about the Mentzer video is that the reps are done slow and controlled which really seems to stress the muscle.

In contrast I read that fast negatives do damage the fibers the most but it's kinda hard to gauge what to believe. Vince and his bicep-cyborg approach are trying to be scientific but I would like to see a huge number of people visiting him, training according to his principles and then presenting their progress... otherwise it's all theory that sounds great.

I agree with the negative aspect of training.......you can always slowly lower more weight than you can raise/lift so more muscle damage will occur.

Just my opinion of course.........I`m no Vince Basile!

[oldschoolfan]

He died shortly after that was filmed, so yeah.

actually mike died the night that was filmed and i believe  ray two days later

[oldschoolfan]

I agree with the negative aspect of training.......you can always slowly lower more weight than you can raise/lift so more muscle damage will occur.

Just my opinion of course.........I`m no Vince Basile!

mr wes did you ever train with these two beasts

[Humble Narcissist]

actually mike died the night that was filmed and i believe  ray two days later

I've always wondered if Ray committed suicide after Mike died as his best friend and brother were gone which also meant no kidney that he needed.

[Titus Pullo]

As predictable as the sun rises

That mofo never benched and squatted 350 and 500 at 15. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Twas what he told me, Rob.  

I have no doubt his squat was a klick high, but after three years of training, I have little reason to believe a genetic freak like Mentzer could flat bench 350.  As I recall, that was the same year he'd gorged himself up to a very fat 250, believing some Weider supplement bullshit about gaining a lb. of muscle daily.  (He later noted that he had to diet for a year to get the flab off.)

Besides, you speak as if a 15-year-old kid couldn't come anywhere close to those weights.  You base this on...what, exactly?  After lifting for almost two years, I benched 245 with a pause, and I was very lean at the time, maybe 155.  A year later, I was closing on 300, and I rarely trained below five reps.  VERY fat guys at other local high schools were pressing in the low threes, or so second-hand accounts said.

Mike was in another class vis a vis building strength and muscle.  Maybe he was bullshitting me?  To what purpose, I cannot say.  Bragging about easy gains as a youngster whilst doing something he thought incompatible with Heavy Duty...doesn't seem to fit his sales pitch, nay?

His and his brother’s squats were mile-high and performed in power cages with the safety rails set. Partial reps in the extreme. I’ve heard them described by folks who were THERE.

Congratulations . That is a total red herring, but I'm well aware of Ray's talk about squatting 920 (ish?) "raw."  I know it's bullshit.

At 15, Mike would have sat on his heels with 500 ... and never came back up with the bar still on his back.

It’s like the nonsense that Arnold could press 500.

At his most gassed, he was good for a few reps in the early 400s.

Anyway, I digress ...

I met Mike in the mid-nineties and he was totalled. All fucked up.

Aww, come on...a few reps with low fours at his prime?  He was stronger than that.  Any hard trainer should be able to bury 440ish for a few after a good cycle or two.  

I appreciate your insights and efforts to cut through the outright lies and nonsense, but I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree this time, my good man.  

[Titus Pullo]

I've always wondered if Ray committed suicide after Mike died as his best friend and brother were gone which also meant no kidney that he needed.

Honestly?

I did not know Ray, but I strongly suspect he did commit suicide after Mike died.  How he did it is the real question:  by refusing further dialysis treatment?  Something more, like ingestion of pills?  The executrix of their estate doesn't want to talk about it.

[Humble Narcissist]

Honestly?

I did not know Ray, but I strongly suspect he did commit suicide after Mike died.  How he did it is the real question:  by refusing further dialysis treatment?  Something more, like ingestion of pills?  The executrix of their estate doesn't want to talk about it.

It would be a rare event for brothers to die a couple days apart if suicide wasn't involved.  Of course the family might never admit it as to not demonize Ray.

[Primemuscle]

I've always wondered if Ray committed suicide after Mike died as his best friend and brother were gone which also meant no kidney that he needed.

I've read  about this suicide conjecture before. The reason given for Mike's passing was heart failure.

[Bevo]

“Mike you been smoking for 20 minutes”

“I don’t have 200 dollars to pay you”

Hahaha

[funk51]

Looking at these pictures and studying the business end of Mike's wiener has me thinking he was not circumcised. I thought he was Jewish.

J

               all of the 3 stooges were Jewish

[Humble Narcissist]

Mentzer was not Jewish.

[Griffith]

Mentzer was not Jewish.

American doctors apparently used to circumsise all male babies. Don't know if they still do.

[The Scott]

Mentzer built most of (if not all) of his mass on steroids.    He was no more a mesomorph than a great many other men out there.  We need only look at Phildo Heath to know that steroids work wonders on the genetically pathetic.

Having said what I believe to be true I should also like to state that I think his 70s Heavy Duty routines are his best and will produce the most results for the most men that give them an honest try.  I personally train between 2 and 4 times a week.  I have Mike's last book and gave that a serious try a few years ago.

Ouch.

I was sore for days.  No make that two weeks.  I trained once every week or two and I went at it like a madman.  Fully warmed up I would for example train back thus -  Close grip palms up pull downs to UTTER failure via forced reps, drop sets and negatives (if I could find someone crazy enough to train with me)  followed immediately by barbell rows and then (maybe) deadlifts.  That's it. 

The same workout included biceps.  Barbell curls with a 2.5" thick bar.  A single drop set that included forced and negative reps toward the end.  Again, I could only do the forced and negative reps if someone was training with me.  Few wanted to.  When training alone I would do rest/pause for my final reps on everything. 

Rest.  And lots of it.  And I HURT.  I also got a brutal pump that seemed to last for hours.

I did not get stronger every workout.  I did not go up in reps every workout.  I did not truly expect to because I am older now and a natural wussy!  Gradually I did get bigger and stronger and view this type of training along the same lines as "Dinosaur Training" (which I also think highly of).  There are times when I will do sets of 50 reps on biceps and triceps for example for up to 5 to 10 sets but usually no more than a couple sets each.  There's also times when I just walk out or never go to the gym or to the weights I have in my garage.

Mentzer used to write about the "cornucopia" of drugs the "champions" were on and how they made recovery much quicker and better.  This is the difference between us and them.  Drugs.  I learned that truth from Robbie Robinson over 40 years ago in the original Gold's.  He was quite honest about it as were pretty much all of them. 

If how you train works for you then great!  There's nothing wrong with volume training if it works for you.  I used to train twice a day, six days a week.  It didn't work for me but I was stoooopid and believed the Weider BS Principals.