Author Topic: Machines vs. Free Weights  (Read 15390 times)

ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2019, 03:40:21 PM »
closer and close to failure means youre more tired both mentally and physically, which means it gets more difficult to use proper form which leads to higher risk of injury.




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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2019, 06:27:55 PM »
I've been following this thread closely and gathering data. Based on my statistical analysis and use of SPSS, these are the results I have come up with. In order to build a superior physique, this is the breakdown:

Genetics: 70%
Drugs: 28%
Dieting: 2%
Machines or free weights: doesn't matter
X

chaos

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2019, 06:31:01 PM »
What's never been done? Building a competitive physique.


What would be the result of both after, say, six months? Six years? Would the person using free weights have better results than his clone? We have no idea, it's never been done.
Most people logically use free weights and machines. Free weights can't be beat for large, compound lifts. Squats > leg press and so on.
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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2019, 06:31:28 PM »
I've been following this thread closely and gathering data. Based on my statistical analysis and use of SPSS, these are the results I have come up with. In order to build a superior physique, this is the breakdown:

Genetics: 70%
Drugs: 28%
Dieting: 2%
Machines or free weights: doesn't matter


Drugs will make you huge and muscular but your physique might not be aesthetic.

pellius

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2019, 07:41:50 PM »
Most people logically use free weights and machines. Free weights can't be beat for large, compound lifts. Squats > leg press and so on.

Because something has never been done does not discount speculating on a hypothetical scenario. For example, say Basile actually lifted weights instead of lecturing us on how to lift weights, would there be any qualitative difference in his physique after, say, six months?

pellius

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2019, 10:36:51 PM »
closer and close to failure means youre more tired both mentally and physically, which means it gets more difficult to use proper form which leads to higher risk of injury.





Getting injured due to poor form and execution is quite a different issue than getting injured from high intensity training. You don't have to train hard or to failure to use sloppy form and get injured. That's why machines are safer. It forces you to maintain that plane of resistance. For example, with the hack squat machine, you don't start bending forward risking a back injury as you would with the barbell squat as you start to fatigue.

My point was that intensity per se, training to failure, does not increase your risk for injury. If anything, those last few reps that you can barely eek out are actually the safest reps. Again assuming your form has not been compromised

ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #131 on: January 08, 2019, 02:29:25 AM »
let's say people do 8 reps of an exercise.

my guess is that more people, of those who injured themselves, did that on the last reps, not the first.

so no i wouldnt agree that the last reps are the safest.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #132 on: January 08, 2019, 04:03:16 AM »
Torn muscles usually occur during the first rep or two but degenerative injuries probably not.

ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #133 on: January 08, 2019, 06:56:48 AM »
Torn muscles usually occur during the first rep or two but degenerative injuries probably not.

even when using high rep-range like 8-12? someone who would easy bang out 10 reps on bench, would then hurt himself on his first reps when he's the most rested, focused and have the most energy to perform perfect reps

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #134 on: January 08, 2019, 12:04:37 PM »
even when using high rep-range like 8-12? someone who would easy bang out 10 reps on bench, would then hurt himself on his first reps when he's the most rested, focused and have the most energy to perform perfect reps
I think it is because of having the most energy and contraction in the first rep that makes it the most dangerous.  The first couple reps should be the slowest and speed up as the set progresses.  At least that is my bro science opinion.

pellius

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #135 on: January 08, 2019, 03:22:58 PM »
let's say people do 8 reps of an exercise.

my guess is that more people, of those who injured themselves, did that on the last reps, not the first.

so no i wouldnt agree that the last reps are the safest.

I can see how it would seem counter-intuitive to claim that the last most difficult reps are actually safer than the initial "easier" reps. After all, just look at our hypothetical trainee taking those 8 reps to absolute failure unable to do a 9th despite his best efforts. He's relatively cruising in the beginning whereas toward the end he's grimacing, straining and even groaning at those last few reps. It would seem obvious that in that state of great effort, the highest intensity level, he would hurt himself.

It reminds me of my days taking Physic classes how things seemed so obvious whereas in fact I was completely wrong on how things worked in nature.

The majority of injuries in resistance training is when the upper limits of a muscle or tendon tensile strength and integrity are exceeded. This can happen due to poor form and a joint is placed in a vulnerable position, say, for example, the knee is subject to a twisting type of stress rather than the bend and straighten hinge-type movement it was designed for. But since the argument is whether extreme effort, intensity, is more likely to injure someone rather than low-intensity effort we will put the issue of poor and sloppy form aside for now though it is absolutely correlated, though not limited to, with the intensity of effort.

The reason for this is the relationship, rather the inverse relationship, between force and intensity. The force generated in moving the weight in the course of a set, and the intensity, the cognitive and physical effort, required to move that weight as the set progresses.

Taking our example of a person performing eight reps to absolute failure, with say, 200 lbs, unable to do a ninth rep despite his best effort. The first rep will be quite easy. He easily generates over 200 pounds and does so with ease. So during the first, and subsequent initial reps, the force is relatively high and the intensity is low. As the set progresses, as the reps start to increase, his strength starts to go down, the force he is able to generate diminishes, while at the same time his intensity increases. His intensity of effort starts to increase dramatically as the force he is able to generate, his momentary strength starts to diminish.

So since injury occurs when one generates too much force on a muscle or tendon, those last reps actually become safer because you are simply too weak to injure yourself.

Again this is only to address the safety or increased risk as it pertains to intensity of effort. It does not take into account sloppy form which can occur whether you are fresh or tired. And, of course, your form is much more likely to get sloppy as you fatigue but that just means it's sloppy form, and not fatigue per se, that causes injury. That's why that the very thing that many claim why machine training makes one more likely to get injured, you are forced into a fixed unnatural plane of motion, which is true, but it is actually the very aspect as to what makes training on a machine safer -- you are forced into a fixed and stable plane of motion.

As you fatigue during a set of squats. As the strength and force you are able to generate from your hips and thighs begins to diminish as the set progressives, you start to bend forward as the bar isn't moving up as easily so you start to bend forward, essentially crushing your body as the bar slows down or remains stationary in mid-air, folding your body in half putting undue strain on the much weaker and vulnerable muscles of the lower back. With, say, the machine Hack squat, your body and back are fixed, i.e., forced into a fixed and stable plane of motion, to remain upright and stable no matter how much stress is put your quads. The worse that would happen is that you would not be able to rise up and have to replace the pins in the lower position.

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #136 on: January 08, 2019, 03:36:48 PM »
Free weights make me much bigger and stronger.I usually free weight as hard an heavy as possible for 8-10 months then hit machines for a month or two when im burnt out or injured.But nothing builds size and strength like free weight.

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #137 on: January 08, 2019, 06:27:41 PM »
Because something has never been done does not discount speculating on a hypothetical scenario. For example, say Basile actually lifted weights instead of lecturing us on how to lift weights, would there be any qualitative difference in his physique after, say, six months?
You weren't speaking in hypotheticals, you were speaking as though it was fact based off of one supposed instance.
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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #138 on: January 09, 2019, 01:35:38 PM »
Free weights make me much bigger and stronger.I usually free weight as hard an heavy as possible for 8-10 months then hit machines for a month or two when im burnt out or injured.But nothing builds size and strength like free weight.

Could that be what logicians call a "false cause"?

I'm not disputing free weights' usefulness.  I would argue that it's especially hard to improve upon weighted dips and chin ups. 

However, I have read your posts for awhile now, and even though you are clean, you are quite big and strong, and making fairly regular progress, nay?  I would posit that the fact you hammer a particular exercise for a bunch of sets, routinely get stronger and (I presume) eat a lot is what's helping you to kick so much ass lately...in other words, you could be benching on an Icarian or similar get-up with comparable intensity, and all things being equal, the actual muscle development would be the same.

Just out of curiosity, would you be so kind as to walk me through a typical bench session?  Do you not failure often, etc.  I am genuinely curious because, like Pellius and The Scott, you seem to be more interested in talking training than trannies :D

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #139 on: January 09, 2019, 03:20:19 PM »
You weren't speaking in hypotheticals, you were speaking as though it was fact based off of one supposed instance.

No, I was referring to two scenarios. When one posits a universal theory ("always" or "never") as Basile rightly points out, it's either right or wrong. If you find just one example to the contrary then the whole theory goes out the window.

You're right that no one has built and won a serious physique competition just using machines. Just as no one has built and won a serious physique competition just using free weights. But we, or at least some, can speculate given past findings and examples. We have an example where a high-level competitive bber improved on an already advanced physique, at an age where he was past his physical prime. I don't think it would be a great leap in logic that it would suggest that he could have attained that same physique he had while actively competing using the same protocol, using just free weights, that he did later in life.

One of the reasons I believe, and again it's never been proven nor do I think it will in our lifetime, that one can achieve the same, and probably greater, level of development using just machines is that there are some muscles that cannot be optimally targeted and stimulated using just free weights. With modern, and continually advancing, machines every muscle can be optimally targeted and stimulated.   

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2019, 03:45:17 PM »
massive overthinking in this thread. machines - free weights each have their pros and cons. you can build an excellent physique with either or a mixture of both.

phill heath apparently mainly used machines, the dominant champion before that mainly used free weights.

i remember seeing phil heath saying something like he only eats fish in the closing stages of a contest prep because it gives him thin skin. BBing isn't a sport that requires some great level of thinking or understanding to excel.

just lift up heavy sht and put it down. if you're hitting every muscle group with equal intensity it's really going to make very little difference whether you use free weights or machines.

robcguns

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2019, 03:54:06 PM »
Could that be what logicians call a "false cause"?

I'm not disputing free weights' usefulness.  I would argue that it's especially hard to improve upon weighted dips and chin ups.  

However, I have read your posts for awhile now, and even though you are clean, you are quite big and strong, and making fairly regular progress, nay?  I would posit that the fact you hammer a particular exercise for a bunch of sets, routinely get stronger and (I presume) eat a lot is what's helping you to kick so much ass lately...in other words, you could be benching on an Icarian or similar get-up with comparable intensity, and all things being equal, the actual muscle development would be the same.

Just out of curiosity, would you be so kind as to walk me through a typical bench session?  Do you not failure often, etc.  I am genuinely curious because, like Pellius and The Scott, you seem to be more interested in talking training than trannies :D

Just did a bench routine today and it went like this 135 for 30,225x5,275x3,315x2,then work sets are always to failure 365x10,405x4,405x3,405x3,365x8,365x7,365x6,365x5,315x10,315x9,315x8,275 paused for 3-5 seconds for 10,225 paused for 15 same as last set.So yeah i hammer certin exercises if i like them and feel them as i dont waste anytime with movements i dont like and dont feel in the desired area.I do eat a good amount,not as much as i used to but around 3k.

i suppose if i used hammer strength and went at it as hard as i do free weight i couod maybe get close to what i get from free weight.

All work sets taken to failure,i used to take all sets including warm ups to failure but lately wanted to bench more so only do warm ups sets for a few.

ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2019, 04:19:41 PM »
Quote
Just as no one has built and won a serious physique competition just using free weights.

oh i think quite a few have.


IRON CROSS

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2019, 04:23:03 PM »
Because something has never been done does not discount speculating on a hypothetical scenario. For example, say Basile actually lifted weights instead of lecturing us on how to lift weights, would there be any qualitative difference in his physique after, say, six months?


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ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2019, 04:23:49 PM »
whats with this failure business? jay cutler dont train to failure, 4x mr olympia!!

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2019, 04:24:50 PM »
No useless biceps suppinators in Steve Reves, Steve Stanko & John Grimek time !?.

pellius

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2019, 04:38:42 PM »

ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2019, 04:43:08 PM »
Name one.

is this going to be one of those "see, he did use leg extensions so he didnt 100% use free weights!" shitty kinda of arguments?

youre esentially saying a winning physique cannot be had without the aid of at least one or more machines.

pellius

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2019, 04:43:18 PM »
whats with this failure business? jay cutler dont train to failure, 4x mr olympia!!

But Dorian did. And?...

ratherbebig

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Re: Machines vs. Free Weights
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2019, 04:44:03 PM »
But Dorian did. And?...

and injured himself in the process.