Machines vs. Free Weights

[ratherbebig]

Tell me, when was the last time you ever read a book?   

your lengthy posts are the closest thing to a book that i read these days.

and just like a book, they make me feel sleepy.

[Humble Narcissist]

This debate overlooks an import fact. Machine design and function have evolved over the decades. Before 1982 Smith machines used chains to keep the bar horizontal. I believe I was the first to use linear bearings in a Smith Machine about 1982. The use of those low friction bearings forever changed those machines and friction was no longer an issue. Chains were discarded. Over the years some versions of those machines were angled about 10 to 15 degrees to give a better movement in squats and bench presses, etc. Some machines used counterweights to allow lower resistance on the apparatus.

When we discuss machines vs free weights it is imperative to specify what machines and who manufactured them. Not all machines are equal and few are 'perfect'. However, companies have been copying each other and there has been a convergence to more or less proper pivot points and movements.

I doubt any company makes a line that is the best of each apparatus. A super gym might have many versions of arm machines from several companies for example.

There is also the issue of fads in machine lines. Over 40 years ago people started using Nautilus machines. Bodybuilders as a group didn't favour them. If you trained at Golds Venice super gym you would know that the second room that had the Nautilus machines wasn't frequented much by muscleheads. They preferred the converging machines made by Hammer Strength. Soon enough Hammer was accepted as great machines by bodybuilders and even gym owners. The truth is some of those machines are great and others not so great.

So this discussion is way more complex that most here imagine. Let us take dumbbells versus biceps machines. Well, which biceps machines? There is only one biceps-supinator machine that I know of so how can any discussion be fair without assessing the worth of all such biceps machines? Nautilus made a few different biceps machines. The position of the user is important as well in these machines. The user can replicate seated dumbbell curls or they can have pads at 45 degrees, or pads at 90 degrees to the user or even pads adjacent to the head. When I designed my biceps machine I concluded that the seated position replicating dumbbell curls is the strongest position.  

My point here is a well designed machine with the proper motion and pivot points will be just as good as dumbbells and probably better for many reasons. What has never been established by the free weight advocates is how are they superior to all machines? Arthur Jones wrote volumes about how his machines were superior to barbells. Sometimes he claimed his machines were barbells but improved barbells. From my experience as a designer and builder of gym equipment I would say that the best machines are superior to free weights. Eventually bodybuilders will gravitate to using whatever helps them improve their physiques. That is exactly what we see champion bodybuilders using. Plenty of machines and some free weights. Could these champions use only machines. Absolutely.

But dumbbells weigh the same regardless of the company that makes them.

[pellius]

Just a thought - Could you not use a light dumbbell or small weight disc if the machine friction is too much.
Doing a light weight for a few more reps may help with getting some blood in the area before doing
Forced / assisted reps.

Or as Vince says maybe try working them indirectly

Injuries are the worst to deal with & work around - Very Frustrating

It's not really an injury per se but it is a result of an injury. I tore the rotator cuff but the tendon retracted into the joint on both shoulders and could not be reattached. So part of the muscle is unable to function.

And yes, I do thoroughly warm up the area starting with performing various shoulder movements with no weights at all before moving to the 2.5 lb plate and the 5 pounders but that I need to assist. I don't have an issue with the first 45 degrees with the lateral raise or any angle. It's after that as I start to get to shoulder level that strength drops off considerably. So if I use a weight that I can get to shoulder level it would be way too light in the beginning part of the movement as to be worthless. So I use a weight that is challenging for the first 45 degrees of motion and then assists myself the rest of the way and try to fight the negative portion of the movement as much as I can.

[IRON CROSS]

 I must get around to building my own triceps machine.[/color]

Will sell in 10 000's , just like "biceps suppinator machine"  

but gym is needed