Question(s) for Johnny Apollo

[Oldschool Flip]

*Sigh*

The proper reply is burn them, Nazi-Bot.

I guess you have never watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail since you were to busy attending Hitler Youth Group meetings.

Dude, THAT WAS FUNNY!

[Colossus_500]

JA, when you said you were once a Jesus freak, does it mean that you confessed yourself to be a sinner, you accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior over your life, and that you believe God to be the true deity?  Did you share this with others? 

[Johnny Apollo]

JA, when you said you were once a Jesus freak, does it mean that you confessed yourself to be a sinner, you accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior over your life, and that you believe God to be the true deity?  Did you share this with others? 

Yes for everything except past tense.


I no longer believe in any God's.

[Mr. Intenseone]

I no longer believe in any God's.

Why? Is there anyone you look up too as a role model (besides Hitler )?

[Oldschool Flip]

Why? Is there anyone you look up too as a role model (besides Hitler )?

Ummm........Grand Dragon of the KKK?

[CC3]

Hmmm.  Do you think every book of the bible was written by goatherders?

I don't think your "detailed investigation into theology and history" was very thorough

Note: I will be using the word "spirituality" and not "religion" in this post, as I seriously dislike the negative connotations that come with that word.

Please do not misunderstand me to think that I am "jumping on Johnny's side" here.  I disagree with the kid about many things (specifically his political beliefs and lack of respect for humanity as a whole).

But I have to respond to this...do you believe the Bible was written as an exact account of the way things were and are supposed to be? 

Do you belive the Bible was written by true contemporaries of Jesus?  Are you aware that Luke, the first book detailing aspects of Jesus' life, was not even written until 80 years after his death?  Do you know how much a story can change by word of mouth over 80 years?

Are you aware that the current Bible was not even formed until the Council of Nicea, 323 years after Jesus' death?  Are you aware that many books that were part of early Christian doctrine were deemed "heretical" and ordered to be destroyed, yet some survived that seriously challenge many of the things said in the King James Bible?  Do a search on the Nag Hammadi texts.

Are you aware that the original books of the New Testament were written in Aramaic, a dead language so commonly mistranslated and misunderstood that even Bible scholars can tell you many of the things written in the contemporary Bible may be different than they were originally intended to be? 

These are things that I believe are worthy of exploration, especially by Christians.  If you are going to be something, don't you want to understand it for what it truly is and where it really came from?  Blindly accepting something just because someone told you that's the way it is or was is very dangerous, IMO.

So that I am not being misunderstood, I will say this.  I am a spiritual person.  I believe in God.

But, growing up, I found it too hard to accept many of the things I was being told.  I believe, by "trying to make sense of it all" I am stronger in my belief now than I was growing up and going to Sunday School every week.  I understand that we cannot find the answers to everything.  Some things are just the will of a higher power in my opinion. 

But the same thing can be said for science, math, biology, etc.  Why does F=ma?  Why does e=mc^2?  Why does 1+1=2?  I mean, can anyone really explain those things, at the very core of what they are?  No, they just are what they are.  I don't know...whoever made this all happen just decided that's how it's going to be, and that's the way it is...

Spiritualists need not be so scared of science, science need not be so scared of spirituality.  After some of the things I've learned and studied, I honestly believe there is a very spiritual side to science.  There are just too many things in this world that are so perfectly alligned (from a scientific and/or mathematical point of view) for me to believe that the universe "just happened".  I touched on that in another thread...

[24KT]

STella it's like this:
I used to sell expensive vacuums door to door. A lot of people bought them. But every once in awhile you get a customer who got bad service and will do ANYTHING to make sure other people don't have the same thing happen. Of course there are others that have gotten great service and recommend the cleaner.

Johnny is the guy who got BAD SERVICE!

I love this guy!

Oldschool, you've just summed up in a nutshell why Goatboy & Havenbull so vehemently detest network mtkg.

Because religion is dangerous. Case in point September 11th 2001. This was due to religion. Over 2,000 people died because of religion and it's nonsense.

Are you sure 911 was about religion? I'm surprised that someone who places as much value as you do on logic and reason, could so easily dismiss a mountain of evidence that suggests something other than religion was behind 911

Religion isn't based on a foundation of logic and reason so the people who believe in it by definition aren't logical or reasonable. You could even say they are mentaly ill. Religion is like neurosis. Anyone who believes in some magical being who made the world and watches over us all and believes some old book which is actually composed of dozens of books by various random authors is the "word of God" CAN'T be sane!

"Man must work with his intellect. He must develop his mental body so that he can express himself as an autonomous individual and gain mastery over the material world. But at the same time he must see to it that his intellect does not gain ascendancy to the detriment of all his other faculties and possibilities for exploration, something which is happening more and more these days. Based on what we see manifesting in most of our contemporaries, we could say the intellect is becoming an instrument of destruction. The more people rely on it, on the way in which it addresses questions and draws conclusions, the more they cut themselves off from other beings, both visible and invisible, for the subtle life of the universe, of the soul and spirit, escapes their investigations." --Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov

[24KT]

Note: I will be using the word "spirituality" and not "religion" in this post, as I seriously dislike the negative connotations that come with that word.

Please do not misunderstand me to think that I am "jumping on Johnny's side" here.  I disagree with the kid about many things (specifically his political beliefs and lack of respect for humanity as a whole).

But I have to respond to this...do you believe the Bible was written as an exact account of the way things were and are supposed to be? 

Do you belive the Bible was written by true contemporaries of Jesus?  Are you aware that Luke, the first book detailing aspects of Jesus' life, was not even written until 80 years after his death?  Do you know how much a story can change by word of mouth over 80 years?

Are you aware that the current Bible was not even formed until the Council of Nicea, 323 years after Jesus' death?  Are you aware that many books that were part of early Christian doctrine were deemed "heretical" and ordered to be destroyed, yet some survived that seriously challenge many of the things said in the King James Bible?  Do a search on the Nag Hammadi texts.

Are you aware that the original books of the New Testament were written in Aramaic, a dead language so commonly mistranslated and misunderstood that even Bible scholars can tell you many of the things written in the contemporary Bible may be different than they were originally intended to be? 

These are things that I believe are worthy of exploration, especially by Christians.  If you are going to be something, don't you want to understand it for what it truly is and where it really came from?  Blindly accepting something just because someone told you that's the way it is or was is very dangerous, IMO.

So that I am not being misunderstood, I will say this.  I am a spiritual person.  I believe in God.

But, growing up, I found it too hard to accept many of the things I was being told.  I believe, by "trying to make sense of it all" I am stronger in my belief now than I was growing up and going to Sunday School every week.  I understand that we cannot find the answers to everything.  Some things are just the will of a higher power in my opinion. 

But the same thing can be said for science, math, biology, etc.  Why does F=ma?  Why does e=mc^2?  Why does 1+1=2?  I mean, can anyone really explain those things, at the very core of what they are?  No, they just are what they are.  I don't know...whoever made this all happen just decided that's how it's going to be, and that's the way it is...

Spiritualists need not be so scared of science, science need not be so scared of spirituality.  After some of the things I've learned and studied, I honestly believe there is a very spiritual side to science.  There are just too many things in this world that are so perfectly alligned (from a scientific and/or mathematical point of view) for me to believe that the universe "just happened".  I touched on that in another thread...

BRAVO!!!

[Johnny Apollo]

Why? Is there anyone you look up too as a role model (besides Hitler )?

Of course....I look up to alot of people but I don't have any "role models".

Carl Sagan.

Charles Darwin

Albert Einstein

Issac Newton

Stephen Hawking

ect..

ect...

[Mr. Intenseone]

Of course....I look up to alot of people but I don't have any "role models".

Carl Sagan.

Charles Darwin

Albert Einstein

Issac Newton

Stephen Hawking

ect..

ect...

I used to do Carl Sagans landscaping when I was younger. Dude was a nice guy but very reclusive and weird, he couldn't look me straight in the eye when I or anyone else talked to him!

[Johnny Apollo]

But the same thing can be said for science, math, biology, etc.  Why does F=ma?  Why does e=mc^2?  Why does 1+1=2?  I mean, can anyone really explain those things, at the very core of what they are?  No, they just are what they are.  I don't know...whoever made this all happen just decided that's how it's going to be, and that's the way it is...

Explaining why the universe is the way it is, is being discovered everyday in new physics. Look into M-Theory or String Theory as far as to why our physical laws are the way they are in this universe. Nothing "spiritual" or "Godly" about that.

need not be so scared of science, science need not be so scared of spirituality.  After some of the things I've learned and studied, I honestly believe there is a very spiritual side to science.  There are just too many things in this world that are so perfectly alligned (from a scientific and/or mathematical point of view) for me to believe that the universe "just happened".  I touched on that in another thread...

"Spirituality" is by definition unscientific. Science is about tests and observations and figuring observable things out. "Spirituality" is about mumbo jumbo and nonsense.

Secondly you brought up "perfectly alligned"? This is the "fine tuning argument" for a God. It's flawed. Since you like looking things up yourself look that up also to spare me explaining it to you.

Science doesn't say the "Universe just happened" anymore than it says "things go up must just go down!" Science does it's best to explain them all with the resources it has. It doesn't say "it just happened." RELIGION says that!

[Johnny Apollo]

I used to do Carl Sagans landscaping when I was younger. Dude was a nice guy but very reclusive and weird, he couldn't look me straight in the eye when I or anyone else talked to him!

Sagan suffered from myelodysplasia later in his life(why he died) and he was on medical watch during that time, Which is why he stayed at home alot.

However I find it hard to believe what you say about him since I met him prior to his death and he was very upright and polite and intelligent.

[CC3]

Explaining why the universe is the way it is, is being discovered everyday in new physics. Look into M-Theory or String Theory as far as to why our physical laws are the way they are in this universe.

Hmm, I looked M-theory up but couldn't really find anything that directly relates it to explaining the origins of physical laws.  Perhaps you could provide a link?

I also see that it is highly disputed even in the scientific community, as it's purely theoretical and not backed by any experimental evidence.  I'm not necessarily using this as an argument for my case; it's mostly just an observation.  Even the relativity equation is disputed in many circles, so that was probably a bad example to use for the point I was trying to make in my previous post.  However, I guess the point I'm making now is that even science relies on "faith" to a certain extent. 

[Just an interesting tidbit, Ed Witten apparently stated that the M stands for "Magic, mystery, or matrix according to taste."]

Secondly you brought up "perfectly alligned"? This is the "fine tuning argument" for a God. It's flawed. Since you like looking things up yourself look that up also to spare me explaining it to you.

I was never aware of the "fine-tuning argument" (at least, not the term); thanks for the heads up.  I did find some very interesting stuff on that, notably the essays by Theodore Drange.  The problem I see with his rebuttal (and many others to fine-tuning) is that it relies on, for lack of a better term, "maybe/maybe not" arguments, which again conjures up thoughts of arguments based on "faith", which I really have a problem with.  For example, he says that, in answer to the fixation of the physical constanst, "Other Values for Physical Constants May Not Be Physically Possible", "Other Values for Physical Constants May Be Highly Improbable", "There May Be an Ensemble of Other Worlds", and so on and so forth.   

Also, his argument for the possibility of existence of other worlds (or other dimensions of reality in the writings of some) is something I found common to many arguments against fine-tuning.  I guess my answer is, why is it so hard to believe that if God made this universe he wouldn't create others?  I'm hardly conceited or ignorant enough to believe that we are the only form of life that could possibly exist.  And even so, accepting the idea that other worlds exist, how does that prove that whatever created this universe wasn't behind those, as well?  I don't really see how that refutes the idea that something created this world and all of the others out there.

Please understand that I am not trying to be close-minded here.  I just don't personally believe that existence as we know it came from nothingness.  No amount of science has ever been able to back up such a claim.

Let me ask you this: what is your explanation for how the universe began?  Can you actually comprehend the idea that something came from absolutely nothing (I mean really thinking about that concept very hard) and still believe that that's possible?

[Mr. Intenseone]

Sagan suffered from myelodysplasia later in his life(why he died) and he was on medical watch during that time, Which is why he stayed at home alot.

However I find it hard to believe what you say about him since I met him prior to his death and he was very upright and polite and intelligent.

I worked for Mr. Sagen for 2 1/2 years and known him just as long (a working relationship only) and saw him on a fairly regular basis. I never said he wasn't those things you mentioned, he a VERY nice man, extremely intelligent (to the point I was nervous and intimidated) he was generous as well. At that time i was not a Christian, but even if he was alive now and knowing what I have researched, I would have never wanted to get into a debate with him even though we would not agree. I had much respect for the man!

[Johnny Apollo]

Hmm, I looked M-theory up but couldn't really find anything that directly relates it to explaining the origins of physical laws.  Perhaps you could provide a link?

I also see that it is highly disputed even in the scientific community, as it's purely theoretical and not backed by any experimental evidence.  I'm not necessarily using this as an argument for my case; it's mostly just an observation.  Even the relativity equation is disputed in many circles, so that was probably a bad example to use for the point I was trying to make in my previous post.  However, I guess the point I'm making now is that even science relies on "faith" to a certain extent. 

[Just an interesting tidbit, Ed Witten apparently stated that the M stands for "Magic, mystery, or matrix according to taste."]

Faith is defined as a BELIEF not supported by evidence.

What science relies on "faith"?

Also, his argument for the possibility of existence of other worlds (or other dimensions of reality in the writings of some) is something I found common to many arguments against fine-tuning.  I guess my answer is, why is it so hard to believe that if God made this universe he wouldn't create others?  I'm hardly conceited or ignorant enough to believe that we are the only form of life that could possibly exist.  And even so, accepting the idea that other worlds exist, how does that prove that whatever created this universe wasn't behind those, as well?  I don't really see how that refutes the idea that something created this world and all of the others out there.

The idea of fine tuning is that this universe's physical constants are just right for life to evolve in them or for matter to exist in them.

The rebuttal that this may not be the only universe and there could be many more explains that problem.

If this is the ONLY universe it would be very odd that it had it's physical laws just so matter could form and life could evolve.

The fine tuning argument really doesn't work because in effect all it proves is this universe as it is is fit for matter and life to form. That's it. It doesn't prove a "God" did it or any such thing like that.

If there are an unlimited number of universes we just got delt the better hand in however universes form.

Please understand that I am not trying to be close-minded here.  I just don't personally believe that existence as we know it came from nothingness.  No amount of science has ever been able to back up such a claim.

1.No science says our universe came from "nothing".

2.You didn't even know what the M-Theory was so how could you claim no Science has backed up the claim that our universe has came from nothing? THAT would be close-minded.

Let me ask you this: what is your explanation for how the universe began?  Can you actually comprehend the idea that something came from absolutely nothing (I mean really thinking about that concept very hard) and still believe that that's possible?

I don't know what the cause of our universe was or exactly how it began. I have no idea.

Not knowing how doesn't mean a "God" did it.

Inorder to establish a "God" did it you'd need evidence a God did not not a fallacy of argument from ignorance.


If our universe must of had to of had a cause...Then what caused that cause? If everything needs a cause then what caused the cause of our universe? And caused that cause? so on and so forth?


Secondly...You can't comprehend our universe coming from "nothing"? Why not? What's stopping something from coming from nothing? NOTHING!

[OzmO]

Johnny,

Did "time" have a point of origin?  (this is not some loaded question,  i really do want to read your answer)

[Johnny Apollo]

Johnny,

Did "time" have a point of origin?  (this is not some loaded question,  i really do want to read your answer)

Yes

[OzmO]

Please explain.

How?  why?  etc.   

thank you.

[Mr. Intenseone]

Please explain.

How?  why?  etc.   

thank you.

He's "googling" as we speak!

[Mr. Intenseone]

What science relies on "faith"?

 

You have "Faith" is scientists to find answers don't you?

[Johnny Apollo]

Please explain.

How?  why?  etc.   

thank you.

Don't know.

[Johnny Apollo]

You have "Faith" is scientists to find answers don't you?

That sentence made no sense.


I don't have "faith" science can answer the questions I have.

I might have "hope" that science can but "faith"? No.

"Faith" is a belief. "Hope" is a desire. Big difference.

I don't believe anything unless it's supported by facts and evidence. Therefor "faith" is an oxymoron as far as science is concerned.

[OzmO]

Don't know.

Then how do you know it did?

[Johnny Apollo]

Then how do you know it did?

Don't know for sure it was just an educated guess.


I haven't done any real research into the physics of the Big Bang so I don't know much about it.

[OzmO]

I would think that there had to be time before the BIG bang.

I heard someone say time is infinite in both directions, past and future. 

That's kind of what i was eluding to earlier in the evolution post about the linier conecpt of time and the posibility of God's creations outside the traditional framework of time.  If time wasn't real before the Big bang then some thing's creation might not  be influfnced by time even  through there was a sequence to it's development.  And yah yah yah yah,  no need to go into the whole facts, evidence blah blah blah.   this is about time not evolution.