The crash survivor "miracle"

[Howard]

I knew of this survivor and he was badly hurt in the crash and walked with a permanent limp.
He wasn't shy about talking of the accident and claimed it was "proof" that GOD worked miracles.

Considering what he'd been thru, I never challenged him on his miracle assertions.


BUT, I often wonder, why does it take a tragic and often painful disaster to prove GOD's miracles?
*Wouldn't a better miracle be moving him out of harms way and AVOIDING the crash?

[Man of Steel]

Some folks have to be completely broken before they acknowledge the work of God in their lives or their need for the work of God in their lives.

So often people say, "I was at my lowest and I looked up to God and he restored me."

Nothing wrong with that, but I myself have had 1 foot in the grave....hours from death......and what I found is that Christ is the rock.....our foundation.

When I was at my lowest I was completely broken and dying and I didn't need to look up to Jesus in that moment because he met at rock bottom and restored and revived me.

I wish I wasn't so stubborn, but the Lord allowed me to broken so that in my healing he would be glorified and then I could be developed to become his instrument to reach the broken.

I give all glory to God!!

God Bless,
MOS

[IroNat]

I was training at my gym in a rural town 20 years ago. On a wall near the front door, they
had a blown up picture of a horribly smashed semi-truck cab.
Under it was a brief story of how one of gym members survied this crash due a mircale of GOD.

I knew of this survivor and he was badly hurt in the crash and walked with a permanent limp.
He wasn't shy about talking of the accident and claimed it was "proof" that GOD worked miracles.

Considering what he'd been thru, I never challenged him on his miracle assertions.
 Sometimes, you need to shut up and be polite. Besides, the guy had been thru enough.
He didn't need some douchebag like me questioning his experience. WTF, he wasn't trying to sell me a book on it LOL.

BUT, I often wonder, why does it take a tragic and often painful disaster to prove GOD's miracles?
*Wouldn't a better miracle be moving him out of harms way and AVOIDING the crash?

A few faithful Christains have told me, that GOD needs to show us "miracles" by allowing the initial tragedy.
If that truck diver wasn't smashed to near death, how can we know a miracle occured?

Ok, so GOD alimighty is some cold hearted dick that needs to crash people to prove his miracles?
I think NOT.

It's a coping mechanism.  

Human beings as a rule must find meaning, they must find reasons for things happening.  Humans look for patterns.  

The reality, as Bhuddists believe, is that there is no meaning.  Things just "are". You get hit by lightning.  You get in a car accident.  You get cancer.  You win the lottery.

There is no grand plan.  Shit just happens.

For most people this is not acceptable and would cause depression so they believe in sky wizards.

[IroNat]

Maybe? 
I see no harm in using FAITH as a coping mechanism.
That's a lot better then drugs or booze.

Like you, I don't think an omnipotent GOD gets involves with every detail of human life.
I think we all live within the physical laws that govern our universe , like gravity.

For me , merely gazing in awe and wonder at the stars on  clear night is why I believe in GOD.
"Something" had to create it and in my humble view I call it GOD.

That's cool.

As long as no human sacrifices, jihads, or other weird and harmful practices are involved.

[IroNat]

Bingo!

That's the real key to religious diversity.

In fact, religeous types start to lose me when they claim that I'm going to spend enternity in hell.
Ok, so I don't belive YOUR religeous dogma and GOD will eternally sentence me to burn and suffer?
Sounds more like a cult dominated with a fear based belief.

[Agnostic007]

Good quote ( above) Iron Nat.

Regardless of the religion, they all come down to buying into some
unproven, principles you just have to believe.

That's why I refuse to belong to any one religion.
I know the Universe and planet earth exist and since something had to make 'em I figure that's "GOD".

I don't think it's a matter of refusing, and I say that because I think it's important. Often times fundies accuse non believers of refusing to believe their version of what religion is, or their god. It really isn't a matter of refusing to believe or belong, it's a matter of simply not believing what their religion says happened or is "true" for lack of empirical evidence 

[avxo]

I was training at my gym in a rural town 20 years ago. On a wall near the front door, they
had a blown up picture of a horribly smashed semi-truck cab.
Under it was a brief story of how one of gym members survied this crash due a mircale of GOD.

Dumb marketing.

They should have posted the news but said that this was obviously the result of the hard work he put at the gym, building up his bis, tris, quads and glutes.

[Dos Equis]

Dumb marketing.

They should have posted the news but said that this was obviously the result of the hard work he put at the gym, building up his bis, tris, quads and glutes.

Do you believe in miracles?

[avxo]

Do you believe in miracles?

That’s a an overly broad and vague question, but if your definition of a miracles incorporates some kind of divine intervention, then the answer is “no”.

I know things that are unlikely do occur. You can call an unlikely event a miracle, but god isn’t required.

I also accept that things which we can’t explain can occur. But the unexplained isn’t necessarily miraculous; it’s more likely that it’s the result of our flawed or incomplete understanding of the event or the natural laws involved.

[Dos Equis]

That’s a an overly broad and vague question, but if your definition of a miracles incorporates some kind of divine intervention, then the answer is “no”.

I know things that are unlikely do occur. You can call an unlikely event a miracle, but god isn’t required.

I also accept that things which we can’t explain can occur. But the unexplained isn’t necessarily miraculous; it’s more likely that it’s the result of our flawed or incomplete understanding of the event or the natural laws involved.

I don't necessarily mean divine intervention.  I mean things that cannot be explained using science, medicine, physics, etc. 

[illuminati]

I don't necessarily mean divine intervention.  I mean things that cannot be explained using science, medicine, physics, etc. 

Perhaps UFO’s can be classed as Miracles as there is no explanation as to what they are or come from.

[Dos Equis]

Perhaps UFO’s can be classed as Miracles as there is no explanation as to what they are or come from.

I guess so?  Which UFOs are you talking about? 

[avxo]

I don't necessarily mean divine intervention.  I mean things that cannot be explained using science, medicine, physics, etc. 

No, I don’t believe that there are occurrences in the Universe that cannot be explained using science, medicine, physics, etc.

This doesn’t mean we can explain everything now; a few centuries ago, we couldn’t explain lightning or earthquakes. Before that we couldn’t explain the process of recreation or the workings of our immune system or the process of photosynthesis.

Back in the days of the Ancient Greeks, thunder was the magical power of Zeus. Unexplained at the time, yes; but not unexplainable and certainly not miraculous.

A miracle is a clear violation of established laws of physics or logic.
A miracle is a human being shooting laser beams from their eyes.
A miracle is a person with terminal congestive heart failure having their heart restored by prayer.
A miracle is a car going off the side of a cliff and continuing to drive normally in mid-air as if a road was underneath it.

Do I think miracles like those have happened? No, I don’t.

[illuminati]

I guess so?  Which UFOs are you talking about? 

Ha - I don’t Know which UFO’s as They’re UFO’s
I say any and all Unidentifiable Flying Objects - When they become identifiable they no longer are miracles
As they can be explained.

As Miracle is so all encompassing they must fall into this category & Sent From God to Show us what
He is capable of. 

[Dos Equis]

No, I don’t believe that there are occurrences in the Universe that cannot be explained using science, medicine, physics, etc.

This doesn’t mean we can explain everything now; a few centuries ago, we couldn’t explain lightning or earthquakes. Before that we couldn’t explain the process of recreation or the workings of our immune system or the process of photosynthesis.

Back in the days of the Ancient Greeks, thunder was the magical power of Zeus. Unexplained at the time, yes; but not unexplainable and certainly not miraculous.

A miracle is a clear violation of established laws of physics or logic.
A miracle is a human being shooting laser beams from their eyes.
A miracle is a person with terminal congestive heart failure having their heart restored by prayer.
A miracle is a car going off the side of a cliff and continuing to drive normally in mid-air as if a road was underneath it.

Do I think miracles like those have happened? No, I don’t.

Just to clarify:  I'm not trying to convince you that divine intervention is the cause of certain things that have no logical explanation or trap you into admitting that you believe in divine intervention, etc.  Just genuinely curious about how you explain things that cannot logically be explained.

For example, you've never heard of someone being completely cured of a terminal disease?

What about the people whose hearts have stopped beating for longer science allows for and survive?  There are countless other others that defy medical explanations. 

[Dos Equis]

Ha - I don’t Know which UFO’s as They’re UFO’s
I say any and all Unidentifiable Flying Objects - When they become identifiable they no longer are miracles
As they can be explained.

As Miracle is so all encompassing they must fall into this category & Sent From God to Show us what
He is capable of. 

Well if you're using the term that broadly then no, I wouldn't call a UFO a miracle. 

[illuminati]

Well if you're using the term that broadly then no, I wouldn't call a UFO a miracle. 

That’s Fair enough.
I wonder if god believers would consider them miracles as they are not explainable??

[illuminati]

Just to clarify:  I'm not trying to convince you that divine intervention is the cause of certain things that have no logical explanation or trap you into admitting that you believe in divine intervention, etc.  Just genuinely curious about how you explain things that cannot logically be explained.

For example, you've never heard of someone being completely cured of a terminal disease?

What about the people whose hearts have stopped beating for longer science allows for and survive?  There are countless other others that defy medical explanations. 

Your examples are good & valid - I tend to think of them as a Numbers Thing
If only 100 people on Earth the chances of any of those would likely be zero
As the Numbers increase so do the chances - And as we have 7billion+ the chances
Of Freak things occurring to Humans gets greater & greater.

“The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare. In fact, the monkey would almost surely type every possible finite text an infinite number of times.”

[avxo]

Just to clarify:  I'm not trying to convince you that divine intervention is the cause of certain things that have no logical explanation or trap you into admitting that you believe in divine intervention, etc.  Just genuinely curious about how you explain things that cannot logically be explained.

Simple: either the thing happened through a mechanism that, though unknown to us, can be discovered and understood and is internally consistent, or we misinterpreted what happened to begin with.

For example, you've never heard of someone being completely cured of a terminal disease?

I’ve heard it many times. But I’ve yet to see a plausible and well documented story of a spontaneous recovery from a terminal illness.

What about the people whose hearts have stopped beating for longer science allows for and survive?

I’ve heard of that too. Most times, mitigating circumstances are involved (e.g. the person whose heart stopped had drowned in ice-cold water) that can provide an explanation based on well-understood biological mechanisms.

But even in times where a precise mechanism of action is not understood, I don’t think in terms of miracles. I think in terms of “oh, an as of yet not understood mechanism allowed for this out of the ordinary result.”

There are countless other others that defy medical explanations. 

Come on. “Countless others that defy medical explanations” is a bit much. I’m betting most such cases, if not all, are anecdotal and those that aren’t don’t really “defy medical explanations”.

I mean, I’m sure that “parishioner with advanced cancer made a miraculous recovery” sounds amazing on the Church’s weekly newsletter and whips the congregation into a religious frenzy, but I doubt the story includes details about the actual treatment nor are most readers able to evaluate the medical condition on its merits; all they know is that someone made a recovery. At best it’ll say “Doctors had all but given up” or “All doctors could do was ease the pain.”

And, of course, when the poor parishioner doesn’t recover, the newsletter won’t say “miracle failure occurred.” It says “Our parishioner is now home and in the presence of the Lord. He’s no longer is pain but bathed in eternal love” or some such trite bullshit.

Long story short: miracles are bullshit.

[Dos Equis]

That’s Fair enough.
I wonder if god believers would consider them miracles as they are not explainable??

Well I'm a God believer.  lol

I think most people use UFOs in the context of alien spaceships.  I don't think we have solid evidence of alien spaceships.  Or do we?

[Dos Equis]

Simple: either the thing happened through a mechanism that, though unknown to us, can be discovered and understood and is internally consistent, or we misinterpreted what happened to begin with.

I’ve heard it many times. But I’ve yet to see a plausible and well documented story of a spontaneous recovery from a terminal illness.


I’ve heard of that too. Most times, mitigating circumstances are involved (e.g. the person whose heart stopped had drowned in ice-cold water) that can provide an explanation based on well-understood biological mechanisms.

But even in times where a precise mechanism of action is not understood, I don’t think in terms of miracles. I think in terms of “oh, an as of yet not understood mechanism allowed for this out of the ordinary result.”

Come on. “Countless others that defy medical explanations” is a bit much. I’m betting most such cases, if not all, are anecdotal and those that aren’t don’t really “defy medical explanations”.

I mean, I’m sure that “parishioner with advanced cancer made a miraculous recovery” sounds amazing on the Church’s weekly newsletter and whips the congregation into a religious frenzy, but I doubt the story includes details about the actual treatment nor are most readers able to evaluate the medical condition on its merits; all they know is that someone made a recovery. At best it’ll say “Doctors had all but given up” or “All doctors could do was ease the pain.”

And, of course, when the poor parishioner doesn’t recover, the newsletter won’t say “miracle failure occurred.” It says “Our parishioner is now home and in the presence of the Lord. He’s no longer is pain but bathed in eternal love” or some such trite bullshit.

Long story short: miracles are bullshit.

Thanks for the responses.  Now I'm curious myself about many of the stories I've heard.  I'm going to look into some and post later.

[illuminati]

Well I'm a God believer.  lol

I think most people use UFOs in the context of alien spaceships.  I don't think we have solid evidence of alien spaceships.  Or do we?

Correct - Most people do think / see them as Alien Space crafts - Though as we don’t know what they
Are - It leaves the door open that they Could Be from A God & Hence Miracles.

[Dos Equis]

Correct - Most people do think / see them as Alien Space crafts - Though as we don’t know what they
Are - It leaves the door open that they Could Be from A God & Hence Miracles.

Sounds like an overly expansive view of miracles.  From that outlook, we humans are all miracles (if you believe in intelligent design). 

[illuminati]

Sounds like an overly expansive view of miracles.  From that outlook, we humans are all miracles (if you believe in intelligent design).  

Yes I Maybe generalising a bit - Then again a lot of unexplainable things / events are called Miricles
More so if it can be related to a god like occurance- That also quite vague & expansive I’d say.

Do you not think it is A Miracle how we are here on this planet
And what about the Miracles of Nature

[Dos Equis]

Yes I Maybe generalising a bit - Then again a lot of unexplainable things / events are called Miricles
More so if it can be related to a god like occurance- That also quite vague & expansive I’d say.

Do you not think it is A Miracle how we are here on this planet
And what about the Miracles of Nature

Yes you're right.  Our bodies, nature, the planet, sun, moon, etc. and they way they are all in harmony with each other is miraculous.  It's one of the reasons why I believe in God.  I spend a lot of time outdoors and there is just no way that what I see in nature is an accident.  Same with our bodies.  Absolutely amazing stuff.