BJ Penn as a White Belt competing against a Black Belt in a Judo tournament

[pellius]

It really is kind of sad how things are going for BJ Penn because back in the day when Jiu-Jitsu was starting to grow and tournaments were popping up all over the place, BJ was the talk of the town. Since people knew I was from Hawaii I was constantly told about this prodigy from Hilo that was smoking everyone. He would always compete in weight classes two divisions heavier than he was and during training as a Blue Belt, he was already catching Blacks. Of course, I thought it was exaggerated as BBJ was brand new in Hawaii and couldn't possibly have the same training level as those in Brasil and even Southern California where the Gracie's and their cousins immigrated to.

It takes the average person about 10 years to become a Black Belt from a legit instructor (one who could trace his promotion all the back to the original Gracie's (Helio, Carlos...). But there are "civilian" Black Belts and the Black Belt athletes. I mean, Dan Inosantos, Chuck Norris, Ed O'Neil... are all Black Belts but they would last three minutes with an advance competition geared Purple Belt. BJ Penn, who was already being accused of "sand bagging" (when an instructor holds back promoting a student so he can win tournaments and collect trophies for himself and his school to get a rep as producing champions) because he would just walk through his opponents, got his Black-Belt in less than four years. And not only did he get a Black Belt so quickly (fastest ever in the history of Jiu-Jitsu at the time) but he also competed in the Mundials (The World Championship) with the best in the world in the most competitive weight class. And once again he cleaned up. For most, getting a Black Belt means the beginning of running with the top dogs and you're back down in the pecking order. Not BJ, a newly minted Black Belt, and now he is the world champ. The first-ever American to win the Worlds competing against opponents who grew up training in Jiu-Jitsu.

This further convinced me that I have been lied to all along. That phrased that "a champion is not born" but made was wrong. At that level, they all train hard. They all give their hearts and souls to their endeavor. It's ultimately talent that takes you to the top. BJ's opponents, the best in the world, were all already seasoned and decorated athletes before Jiu-Jitsu even came to Hawaii. But there are a precious few that are randomly chosen to be blessed. Life is not fair should be a lesson taught at an early age.

[Matt]

My friend actually told me his instructor held him back from advancing, so his school could collect trophies. I didn't know that's a common thing.

I was sad to see BJ Penn's 2017 fight. He made it to the second round, but it was sad to see him take such a beating.

I hope he doesn't have any permanent brain damage from his MMA career.

pellius - GSP versus Mariusz Pudzianowski...does GSP have the skill to overcome that big of a weight disparity?

[hardgainerj]

wasnt there a technicality were he had to wear a white belt since he had no rank in judo?

[Dave D]

My friend actually told me his instructor held him back from advancing, so his school could collect trophies. I didn't know that's a common thing.

I was sad to see BJ Penn's 2017 fight. He made it to the second round, but it was sad to see him take such a beating.

I hope he doesn't have any permanent brain damage from his MMA career.

pellius - GSP versus Mariusz Pudzianowski...does GSP have the skill to overcome that big of a weight disparity?

I'll take the liberty of answering for Pellius on this one Matt. GSP wins.

[pellius]

My friend actually told me his instructor held him back from advancing, so his school could collect trophies. I didn't know that's a common thing.

I was sad to see BJ Penn's 2017 fight. He made it to the second round, but it was sad to see him take such a beating.

I hope he doesn't have any permanent brain damage from his MMA career.

pellius - GSP versus Mariusz Pudzianowski...does GSP have the skill to overcome that big of a weight disparity?

I think skill can overcome size and does routinely, but it does depend on the disparity of size and the disparity of skill. A Ramy has no chance against even the scrawny Nick Diaz but Pudzianowski has come a long, long way since his beating by an out of shape, skinny fat, doughy Tim Silvia.

Pudz is not just some big strong guy flexing his muscles, he was and is a talented athlete and has spent a lot of years now seriously training in the fighting arts. This is not a match I would want to bet on.

[Matt]

I'll take the liberty of answering for Pellius on this one Matt. GSP wins.

Interesting. Another Getbigger said that when I asked [maybe 5+ years ago].

I mentioned Mariusz Pudzianowski because he actually has fight training. Not at the same level as GSP...but he does have actual fight training, as opposed to just being big and strong.

[pellius]

wasnt there a technicality were he had to wear a white belt since he had no rank in judo?

You know something, that is a damn good point that I did not consider. Sure talent is talent but you still have to learn a few moves. BJ was not doing or moving like a White Belt in Jiu-Jitsu.

I'm not sure what the rules are but Royler and Royce Gracie use to compete in Judo tournaments when they were Black Belts even though they were never affiliated with any Judo school or Team. Royler, especially, was very active in his day in Judo tournaments although all his training was done in Jiu-Jitsu and with his family. Even when the Gracie's went to the legendary Howard Nishioka's Judo academy, Howard did comment on Royler's Judo as being very good and that Rickson had some potential.

[pellius]

Interesting. Another Getbigger said that when I asked [maybe 5+ years ago].

I mentioned Mariusz Pudzianowski because he actually has fight training. Not at the same level as GSP...but he does have actual fight training, as opposed to just being big and strong.

Yes, martial artist often like to say that size doesn't matter. That's just irrational bullshit. To argue that strength doesn't play any role in a physical sport does not comport with common sense. Take GSP right now and match him with a GSP clone except 75 pounds heavier. Who wins?

All else being equal, the bigger stronger man wins every time.

[Matt]

Yes, martial artist often like to say that size doesn't matter. That's just irrational bullshit. To argue that strength doesn't play any role in a physical sport does not comport with common sense. Take GSP right now and match him with a GSP clone except 75 pounds heavier. Who wins?

All else being equal, the bigger stronger man wins every time.

That's what my friend who was "sandbagged" said.

He said he would put strength over size, but they both matter. And obviously skill, more than anything.

Do you think Mariusz Pudzianowski could do well against GSP?

I only ask because it's something like an 80-lb weight disparity, and an even greater strength disparity.

Something about BJ Penn is that he figured several men out of his weight class. That takes some skill and confidence to fight a top welterweight like GSP when BJ Penn himself only weighed around 167-lb.

[pellius]

My friend actually told me his instructor held him back from advancing, so his school could collect trophies. I didn't know that's a common thing.

I was sad to see BJ Penn's 2017 fight. He made it to the second round, but it was sad to see him take such a beating.

I hope he doesn't have any permanent brain damage from his MMA career.

pellius - GSP versus Mariusz Pudzianowski...does GSP have the skill to overcome that big of a weight disparity?

I really don't think his instructor, which at the time was Ralph Gracie, held him back. I mean, he got his Black Belt faster than anyone in BJJ history at the time. It's just that his skill set advance so quickly. It sometimes causes jealousy when someone is promoted so quickly. Most spend 3 years as a blue-belt, often longer. I was a blue-belt for over three years. If you go from Blue to Purple in a year people pay attention. And you can also get promoted faster if you petition for yourself (literally dripping hints or even asking when you are getting promoted) For my part, I never gave a crap about the color of my belt. I cared only about how actually performed on the mat. The only problem I felt as an advance
Blue was the higher belts don't want to roll with you because they don't want to look bad.
I remember rolling with a Brown as a Blue Belt who was considerably smaller than I was. 135 lb max. I found myself holding back because I didn't want him to look bad and he, and the other watching me, wouldn't want to roll with me. But I knew for sure I could have tapped him because I caught him in a collar choke but made it look like he escaped. I didn't care that he tapped me. I never got pissed when I lost -- which was often. I was disappointed in myself but never angry with my opponent and threw a fit. Even if there was an obviously bad call I kept my mouth shut and let my coach make the case for me. I didn't think it was my place. And I knew the audience also could tell I was screwed.

I swear I shoved my finger up his nose and not his eye and the bitch was just looking for an easy way out and not getting a loss on his record.

[pellius]

That's what my friend who was "sandbagged" said.

He said he would put strength over size, but they both matter. And obviously skill, more than anything.

Do you think Mariusz Pudzianowski could do well against GSP?

I only ask because it's something like an 80-lb weight disparity, and an even greater strength disparity.

Something about BJ Penn is that he figured several men out of his weight class. That takes some skill and confidence to fight a top welterweight like GSP when BJ Penn himself only weighed around 167-lb.

In those days Penn was around 150.

I don't think GSP would have an easy time with Mariuz. He's not going to knock him out with strikes because GSP never was really a heavy hitter. And on the ground strength matters a lot more. GSP is a world-class wrestler but not a submission specialist. When he competed in Abu Dhabi he got schooled in the first round. He takes guys down and grounds and pounds them and not choke them out which is the best submission against a big guy. Grounding and pounding today's Mariuz won't be so easy.

But like I said. I wouldn't know who to beat on but would love to see how it would play out.

[Matt]

In those days Penn was around 150.

I don't think GSP would have an easy time with Mariuz. He's not going to knock him out with strikes because GSP never was really a heavy hitter. And on the ground strength matters a lot more. GSP is a world-class wrestler but not a submission specialist. When he competed in Abu Dhabi he got schooled in the first round. He takes guys down and grounds and pounds them and not choke them out which is the best submission against a big guy. Grounding and pounding today's Mariuz won't be so easy.

But like I said. I wouldn't know who to beat on but would love to see how it would play out.

Penn was only around 150? That's even more impressive.

I'm intrigued by the hypothetical GSP versus Mariusz fight even more after reading your post.

I know better than to ask about a random strongman...I mentioned Mariusz because he actually has some fight training.

I had no idea that GSP got schooled in Abu Dhabi. I guess that's the thing about MMA fighters - they are generally not the strongest in multiple areas; just well-rounded.

John Danaher said on the Joe Rogan podcast that GSP has been submitting some high-level Jiu-jitsu fighters in the lead-up to the Bisping fight.

He didn't mention any names though.

[Matt]

I really don't think his instructor, which at the time was Ralph Gracie, held him back. I mean, he got his Black Belt faster than anyone in BJJ history at the time. It's just that his skill set advance so quickly. It sometimes causes jealousy when someone is promoted so quickly. Most spend 3 years as a blue-belt, often longer. I was a blue-belt for over three years. If you go from Blue to Purple in a year people pay attention. And you can also get promoted faster if you petition for yourself (literally dripping hints or even asking when you are getting promoted) For my part, I never gave a crap about the color of my belt. I cared only about how actually performed on the mat. The only problem I felt as an advance
Blue was the higher belts don't want to roll with you because they don't want to look bad.
I remember rolling with a Brown as a Blue Belt who was considerably smaller than I was. 135 lb max. I found myself holding back because I didn't want him to look bad and he, and the other watching me, wouldn't want to roll with me. But I knew for sure I could have tapped him because I caught him in a collar choke but made it look like he escaped. I didn't care that he tapped me. I never got pissed when I lost -- which was often. I was disappointed in myself but never angry with my opponent and threw a fit. Even if there was an obviously bad call I kept my mouth shut and let my coach make the case for me. I didn't think it was my place. And I knew the audience also could tell I was screwed.

I swear I shoved my finger up his nose and not his eye and the bitch was just looking for an easy way out and not getting a loss on his record.

Whoops - I wasn't clear there:

My friend was allegedly sandbagged.

His name is Arthur Novack. I think he fights out of Toronto. I went to high school with him. He was a great wrestler, and trains BJJ now.

Arthur said his BJJ instructor held him from advancing in belts quickly, so Arthur could win tournaments, and the school could get credit.

I didn't know that was something common in the BJJ world.

[pellius]

Penn was only around 150? That's even more impressive.

I'm intrigued by the hypothetical GSP versus Mariusz fight even more after reading your post.

I know better than to ask about a hypothetical strongman...I mentioned Mariusz because he actually has some fight training.

I had no idea that GSP got schooled in Abu Dhabi. I guess that's the thing about MMA fighters - they are generally not the strongest in multiple areas; just well-rounded.

John Danaher said on the Joe Rogan podcast that GSP has been submitting some high-level Jiu-jitsu fighters in the lead-up to the Bisping fight.

He didn't mention any names though.

Yes, there's a difference between high-level Jiu-Jitsu players, those that are standouts in a particular school and local tournaments, and world class competitors from all around the world. Abu Dhabi is like the Mr. Olympia in no gi submission wrestling. Not only do you have to establish your name to get an invitation by winning a major tournament you still have to go through the Abu Dhabi trials.

It is worth noting that of the elite, the best of the best, world class Jiu-Jitsu players with a few exceptions have not fared that well in modern MMA. The few are Jacare, Demian Maia, Fabricio Verdum, and recently, Raphael LoVato Jr. who just won the middle weight title in Bellator over Gegard Mousasi. The two considered the best of the best in world, head and shoulders above the rest, Roger Gracie and Marcello Garcia, tried their hand at MMA and wisely decided to stick to Jiu-Jitsu.

I think a D-1 wrestler is more combat suited than a Jiu-Jitsu player even though Jiu-Jitsu is more combat-oriented because of submissions. All else being equal, taking a wrestler and teaching him BJJ and striking will do better than taking a BBJ Black Belt and teaching him wrestling and striking.

Tournament Jiu-Jitsu where you are wearing a gi is very technical and ofter slow-moving. A lot, if not most, of high level BJJ comes from the guard. Because you can use both legs and arms there are more submission opportunities while you are on your back than the top position and many prefer fighting off their back. Well, being on you back when punches are factored into the equation is pretty much not a good position to be. In a tournament, you have to break free, i.e., "pass" the guard before the fight can continue or you will be penalized for stalling. In MMA there is no imperative to pass the guard when you can just sit there and keep dropping bombs for five minutes racking up points or getting a stoppage or knock out.

Also, wrestlers are more aggressive, their takedowns are more practical and on a higher level than BJJ, they can control you better with their bodyweight whereas in BJJ they use the gi to control you (no gi in MMA), and wrestlers are generally in better shape, more accustom to maintaining a high level of intensity for longer periods, and tougher mentally.  

Again this is just a generalization stemming on how both disciplines are run. Wrestling is run solely as a sport catering solely to high-level athletes. So you are just naturally in a higher-level environment and competition and if you don't perform its "Bub Bye". It's like being in a calculus math class at a State college and a calculus class at Cal Tech or MIT. Jiu-Jitsu, on the other hand, is generally run primarily as a business first and there is zero danger of being "cut" from the team because you suck. D-1 college wrestling is brutal and many who would normally excel in BJJ would break mentally in a D-1 training camp.

[pellius]

Whoops - I wasn't clear there:

My friend was allegedly sandbagged.

His name is Arthur Novack. I think he fights out of Toronto. I went to high school with him. He was a great wrestler, and trains BJJ now.

Arthur said his BJJ instructor held him from advancing in belts quickly, so Arthur could win tournaments, and the school could get credit.

I didn't know that was something common in the BJJ world.

Well, as BJJ has gotten so popular and has attracted athletes from other sports another situation has arisen. You get a good wrestler with zero BJJ experience who will crush a Blue or Purple belt. Not because he's better in BJJ but because he's a better athlete and his advance wrestling trumps a beginner BBJ player. So just because you beat a Blue or Purple belt doesn't necessarily mean you are at a that level of knowledge and skill in BJJ. I remember that happening when a guy started training with us. He was big and strong, tough as fuck, and though he never trained in BJJ he trained in Sambo and wrestling and as a White Belt pretty much crushed everybody in the school except for Rickson. I forget his name but he was mentioned on this board recently because he just passed away. I didn't know he was in movies but someone posted a pic of him with Van Damm in some shower scene. He didn't have the skills that BJJ Blue Belt would have. Didn't know how to snap on a triangle or Uma Plata, but with him it didn't matter. What he knew was more than enough to make mincemeat of us mere mortals. God, I wish I could remember his name. Had a beard, looked like a wolf, was no-nonsense, I tried to avoid him during free training.

[hardgainerj]

My friend actually told me his instructor held him back from advancing, so his school could collect trophies. I didn't know that's a common thing.

I was sad to see BJ Penn's 2017 fight. He made it to the second round, but it was sad to see him take such a beating.

I hope he doesn't have any permanent brain damage from his MMA career.

pellius - GSP versus Mariusz Pudzianowski...does GSP have the skill to overcome that big of a weight disparity?

gsp has enough skill to sink an rear naked choke on pudz

[Kwon]

BJ Penn in a street fight in August

[pellius]

BJ Penn in a street fight in August

I know. I know.

Sad.

Well, at least we still have Max Holloway.

[Kwon]

I know. I know.

Sad.

Well, at least we still have Max Holloway.

And Hawaii also has Pellius, destroyer of cheeseburgerthieves!


Gotta make a statement to them bums and thieves.

[ponal]

And Hawaii also has Pellius, destroyer of cheeseburgerthieves!


Gotta make a statement to them bums and thieves.

yes 

[pellius]

yes 

Still following me around like a little puppy.

And to think that you are so obsessed with someone you've never met, would be too afraid to show yourself, yet I occupy your every waking hour.

I've really done a number on you.

Now that's really sad.

[oldtimer1]

BJ Penn was an outstanding fighter. Like all fighters and athletes they have an expiration date. For the rest of his life he will be able to beat black belts in pure BJJ and MMA but against the best of today his time is gone.

[ponal]

guys like pelius seem to think that BJJ makes them invincible… 

[Kwon]

BJJ does make people invincible, not just Penne that thinks so.

[mrbham]

That was not a Judo tournament, you can't pull guard.  Being a Judo blackbelt doesn't mean you can't defend against submissions from a high level (purple belt or higher) jiu jitsu guy.