RIP Kobe Bryant

[Al Doggity]

So you think Tracy McGrady could not train and work as hard Kobe because he was injury prone and that would just accelerate his injuries? Or would the extra work have included preventive training?

If anything this furthers the idea of Kobe's elite genetics/giftings as he was able to push his body further than a typical NBA star could before he broke down. Dirk is another example of extreme dedication although his peak was no where near Kobe's.

I'm looking back over this conversation, trying to figure out how this became a matter of one over the other.  Arguments can be made for both because both were extremely important.  You can do well with either good genetics or a dogged work ethic, but combining both is a recipe for being elite.

There's actually a name for this concept where once your proficiency in something begins to improve, it begins to improve exponentially, not gradually. It comes not just from the fact that you practice more, but because you are motivated to make greater improvements once you get past certain hurdles. 

[G_Thang]

https://heavy.com/sports/2020/01/ari-shaffir-kobe-bryant/

LOL, if Kobe had raped her and she didn't f##k another dude less 24 hrs before him, he would have been under the jail with Cosby and Sharper.  But because he was an incident he got to walk with white convicts like Weinstein, Stacy, Rosenberger, Woody Allen, and Stanford dumpster f#ckboy.   

[Dave D]

I'm looking back over this conversation, trying to figure out how this became a matter of one over the other.  Arguments can be made for both because both were extremely important.  You can do well with either good genetics or a dogged work ethic, but combining both is a recipe for being elite.

There's actually a name for this concept where once your proficiency in something begins to improve, it begins to improve exponentially, not gradually. It comes not just from the fact that you practice more, but because you are motivated to make greater improvements once you get past certain hurdles. 

I think Pelius implied that great athletes are born, which to an extent is true.  As my point was if Kobe was a 5'9 male from Thunderbay, Canada he could have had the same work ethic but would have likely not ended up in the NBA, let alone been an all time great.

Conversely Kobe would have likely had multiple opportunities to play basketball at the elite/professional level putting forth minimal effort based on his physical gifts alone (Korelone Young was considered a diamond in the rough based on his physical gifts and he was drafted in the 2nd round 2 years after Kobe. But he wasnt mentally muture enough to be a professional).

It can be either or but RARELY is either one alone enough to be "great".

[Army of One]

I'm looking back over this conversation, trying to figure out how this became a matter of one over the other.  Arguments can be made for both because both were extremely important.  You can do well with either good genetics or a dogged work ethic, but combining both is a recipe for being elite.

There's actually a name for this concept where once your proficiency in something begins to improve, it begins to improve exponentially, not gradually. It comes not just from the fact that you practice more, but because you are motivated to make greater improvements once you get past certain hurdles. 

Dogged work ethic is genetics.

[Al Doggity]

I think Pelius implied that great athletes are born, which to an extent is true.  As my point was if Kobe was a 5'9 male from Thunderbay, Canada he could have had the same work ethic but would have likely not ended up in the NBA, let alone been an all time great.

Conversely Kobe would have likely had multiple opportunities to play basketball at the elite/professional level putting forth minimal effort based on his physical gifts alone (Korelone Young was considered a diamond in the rough based on his physical gifts and he was drafted in the 2nd round 2 years after Kobe. But he wasnt mentally muture enough to be a professional).

It can be either or but RARELY is either one alone enough to be "great".

I would say that either or is NEVER enough to be truly great, but greatness is defined differently in different fields, so I guess it's possible for that not to be true in some cases. I don't think it could ever be the case in basketball.

I could be missing your point (and the point of the convo and if so I apologize for that),  but it sounds like you're  saying he had a predisposition to be good at basketball because he was tall and agile. Those aren't qualities that are rare among nba players, so it wasn't like those things preordained him for greatness.

There's a book by Malcolm Gladwell called The Outliers. I'm sure you've heard of it and probably read it or some stuff related to it. Anyway, he makes the argument that the people who achieve greatness are people who have had 10,000 hours to perfect their craft. That's a huge simplification of the book, but he makes what I considered to be a good case- obviously, ymmmv. Kobe excelling so early is like the embodiment of what he argued in the book in some aspects.

[Al Doggity]

Dogged work ethic is genetics.

Disagree. You can start out as an unmotivated person and develop a strong work ethic. Likewise, you can be highly motivated in one aspect of your life and other aspects of your life could be in shambles. There are many examples of athletes and entertainers who are hard workers almost exclusively when it comes to their craft. You can't be tall or agile or stronger than average only when you're motivated to be so.

[illuminati]

Born with the Right / Best Genetics for your chosen sport
Coupled with Strength of Mind / Determination & Hard Work / Practice

Makes for the Top Tier ATG.

[Army of One]

Disagree. You can start out as an unmotivated person and develop a strong work ethic. Likewise, you can be highly motivated in one aspect of your life and other aspects of your life could be in shambles. There are many examples of athletes and entertainers who are hard workers almost exclusively when it comes to their craft. You can't be tall or agile or stronger than average only when you're motivated to be so.

I'll tell that to the down syndrome kids, that it isn't their genetics, just that they are not developing a strong work ethic.

[Al Doggity]

I'll tell that to the down syndrome kids, that it isn't their genetics, just that they are not developing a strong work ethic.

But someone with down's syndrome can have an admirable work ethic. They just have mental and physical limitations that limit what they can achieve. Those are two separate things. Someone without down's syndrome can have a strong work ethic, too, but may not have a body that is naturally strong or fast. Someone who is a natural runner could beat them in a race, but that says nothing about either racer's work ethic. Work ethic =/= potential, it's how close you get to reaching your potential.

[XFACTOR]

I know what’s certain and what’s certain is Lebron is about to will his way to a title. I’m no Bron fan but it’s about to be lights out for everyone not wearing yellow and purple.

[Fortress]

Who?

[mazrim]

I know what’s certain and what’s certain is Lebron is about to will his way to a title.

How would he be willing his way to a title when he has Anthony Davis? That's like saying he willed himself to the title in Miami when he had two top 10 players beside him. They are favorites.

[XFACTOR]

How would he be willing his way to a title when he has Anthony Davis? That's like saying he willed himself to the title in Miami when he had two top 10 players beside him. They are favorites.

He didn’t will himself to a title before. They aren’t the best team in the league as they don’t have the bench. He’s going to need to play almost every min of every game come playoffs

[Bevo]

What if leBron died tomorrow? Would that be as significant as kobe?

[XFACTOR]

What if leBron died tomorrow? Would that be as significant as kobe?

Good question. As a Raptors season ticket holder and having watched him destroy us year in and year out when he was at Cleveland I might not be as upset

[pellius]

I once read that of all the athletes in various sports the most gifted are pro basketball players. One of the reasons they gave is simply their height. The average height for men in the world is 5'7". The average height for an American male is 5'10". The percentage of men over 6 feet tall is 14.5%. The percentage of men 6'4" and over is 1%. You now get into fractions of a percent when you're talking Kobe Bryant's height.
So just by height alone makes them part of the elite.

In addition, what makes them also so special is that after about 6'4" a man becomes more awkward and less stable. Graceful movement is compromised as height increases. This is because most of a person's height comes from their legs. Try it some time. Find someone that's considerably taller than you are and then sit down next to each other.  Now they are not towering over you as much.

So when you are essentially walking on stilts it is that much harder doing layups and dribbling down court -- unless you are gifted, as all pro basketball players are to various degrees.

[Powerlift66]

The world is acting like an epic leader (Ghandi or some shit) died.

Very bizarre...

[Army of One]

The world is acting like an epic leader (Ghandi or some shit) died.

Very bizarre...

In a city that has the most famous people in the world, once they finished playing fancy dress and cowboys and Indians for the day, they all paid thousands of dollars to sit courtside and feel inferior to someone with real physical talent. They worshipped him in L. A thus the media outpoor and coverage. Maybe the first biggest star to die who had his peak since the social media generation? When people see someone so much on TV and Internet, they feel like they know them.

[Bevo]

I once read that of all the athletes in various sports the most gifted are pro basketball players. One of the reasons they gave is simply their height. The average height for men in the world is 5'7". The average height for an American male is 5'10". The percentage of men over 6 feet tall is 14.5%. The percentage of men 6'4" and over is 1%. You now get into fractions of a percent when you're talking Kobe Bryant's height.
So just by height alone makes them part of the elite.

In addition, what makes them also so special is that after about 6'4" a man becomes more awkward and less stable. Graceful movement is compromised as height increases. This is because most of a person's height comes from their legs. Try it some time. Find someone that's considerably taller than you are and then sit down next to each other.  Now they are not towering over you as much.

So when you are essentially walking on stilts it is that much harder doing layups and dribbling down court -- unless you are gifted, as all pro basketball players are to various degrees.

Funny, I read somewhere it was pro baseball players, all around ultimate athletes

On getbig, majority of getbiggers are 6’4 and over....

[pellius]

The world is acting like an epic leader (Ghandi or some shit) died.

Very bizarre...

I don't see that at all. They are mourning someone that they have followed, admired, and brought them joy for twenty years.

I really don't get this attitude. I don't why it's so hard to believe that a lot of people cared about Kobe and are shocked that he died so young and tragically.

And it is certainly not bizarre but quite common. The same will happen when Stallone or Arnold dies.

[pellius]

In a city that has the most famous people in the world, once they finished playing fancy dress and cowboys and Indians for the day, they all paid thousands of dollars to sit courtside and feel inferior to someone with real physical talent. They worshipped him in L. A thus the media outpoor and coverage. Maybe the first biggest star to die who had his peak since the social media generation? When people see someone so much on TV and Internet, they feel like they know them.

You think fans, whether of sports or entertainment, feel inferior when they watch them? Is that what happens to you when you watch sports or a movie? For me that thought doesn't even enter my mine. For instance, I just watch and enjoy watching MMA. Watching a high level of skill that has evolved so quickly as well as the drama of conflicting personalities finally settling the matter. The idea that they could easily beat the crap out of me doesn't even enter my mind.

[pellius]

Funny, I read somewhere it was pro baseball players, all around ultimate athletes

On getbig, majority of getbiggers are 6’4 and over....

What were some of the attributes they highlighted to come to this conclusion?

[Army of One]

I would say basketball too and have heard this many times before. The sport demands you have a good/great vertical leap which is probably the best assessment of fast twitch fibers, along with huge amounts of stamina needed to play 82 games minimum a season. Throw in the fact the NBA has the highest average salary in the world so will attract all the best athletes.

[pellius]

I would say basketball too and have heard this many times before. The sport demands you have a good/great vertical leap which is probably the best assessment of fast twitch fibers along with huge amounts of stamina to play 82 games minimum a season.

Watching that guy take one leap from the free-throw line all the way to the basket to dunk the basketball was just jaw-dropping.

[Army of One]

Watching that guy take one leap from the free-throw line all the way to the basket to dunk the basketball was just jaw-dropping.

Which guy? Farthest out I've ever seen dunk is Mike Conley the ex long jumper and James "flight" white, both dunked from around a foot behind the free throw line.