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Author Topic: Anti religion people  (Read 933 times)
chaos
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Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan


« on: April 21, 2016, 12:01:27 PM »

Just as bad or worse than religious people in trying to shove their beliefs down everyones throats Huh
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2016, 06:45:16 AM »

Sharing and debating beliefs and values is fine, enforcing bad laws or acting unkindly towards someone based on these views is where it goes wrong.
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chaos
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Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan


« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2016, 07:09:22 AM »

I'm talking about the kind of people that make it their lifes mission to tell everyone there is no God. The kind of person that travels around social media bashing people that believe. That guy is just as bad as a Jesus freak waving his sign around telling everyone to believe.
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2016, 09:18:48 AM »

I'm talking about the kind of people that make it their lifes mission to tell everyone there is no God. The kind of person that travels around social media bashing people that believe. That guy is just as bad as a Jesus freak waving his sign around telling everyone to believe.
Yes...believe what you believe and leave people alone. Everyone would be happier!
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2016, 10:41:14 AM »

Yet the Christian has a divine command to spread the good news.  The atheist is following a personal whim grounded in nothing (or subjectivity at best).

The Christian desires to help.  The atheist desires to thwart.
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2016, 12:42:58 PM »

Yet the Christian has a divine command to spread the good news.  The atheist is following a personal whim grounded in nothing (or subjectivity at best).

The Christian desires to help.  The atheist desires to thwart.
How does telling people to believe in a man in the sky help?
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2016, 10:13:06 PM »

0+0=0

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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2016, 02:05:35 AM »

Yet the Christian has a divine command to spread the good news.

You may have a divine command to spread the "good news" (which amount to "you'll die unless you kiss my God's ass!") but no "divine right" to impose on others to listen to you.


The atheist is following a personal whim grounded in nothing (or subjectivity at best).

Let's recap it for a second: God created humans, and they didn't turn out the way he wanted. So he decided that all humans will be punished and there's nothing they can do to escape punishment. He then had a change of heart, asexually reproduced a clone of himself which was then sent to be killed so as to save the yet unborn humans from the wrath of the punishment that he imposed.

Yep... you're on solid granite there buddy.
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2016, 02:36:33 AM »

Yep... you're on solid granite there buddy.

You're simplifying everything here to the point of absurdity.
As a atheist I recommend you read a short book called "The Consolation of Philosophy' written in 523AD which discusses topics such as providence and free will which should give you a better understanding of the punishment and salvation of man as laid out in the bible.
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2016, 02:53:31 AM »

You're simplifying everything here to the point of absurdity.

Really? The problem is the simplification? Can you point to anything I wrote that is actually inaccurate?


As a atheist I recommend you read a short book called "The Consolation of Philosophy' written in 523AD which discusses topics such as providence and free will which should give you a better understanding of the punishment and salvation of man as laid out in the bible.

I appreciate the recommendation. I've already read Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy", as well as his more religious Theological Treatise. I've done a lot of research on Christianity and though I am by no means a Biblical scholar, I wouldn't hesitate to go toe-to-toe with one; in fact, I'd be very interested in doing so.
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2016, 03:17:29 AM »

Really? The problem is the simplification? Can you point to anything I wrote that is actually inaccurate?
I've already read Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy",  
God created humans, and they didn't turn out the way he wanted. So he decided that all humans will be punished and there's nothing they can do to escape punishment
Good to hear that you've read it, with this in mind don't you think that God knew before he created humans what their fate will be? There's a difference between God knowing that humans will be punished and saying he decided they'll be..and there are / were ways to prevent this punishment.

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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2016, 05:06:51 AM »

Good to hear that you've read it, with this in mind don't you think that God knew before he created humans what their fate will be? There's a difference between God knowing that humans will be punished and saying he decided they'll be..and there are / were ways to prevent this punishment.

If he knew what each human would choose then the humans weren't free to choose. And unless a choice is free, it isn't a choice. If God punishes us for something that isn't our choice, he's unjust and immoral.
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2016, 07:15:29 AM »

How does telling people to believe in a man in the sky help?

Only way to be free of our sin is through Jesus Christ. 
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2016, 07:18:31 AM »

You may have a divine command to spread the "good news" (which amount to "you'll die unless you kiss my God's ass!") but no "divine right" to impose on others to listen to you.


Let's recap it for a second: God created humans, and they didn't turn out the way he wanted. So he decided that all humans will be punished and there's nothing they can do to escape punishment. He then had a change of heart, asexually reproduced a clone of himself which was then sent to be killed so as to save the yet unborn humans from the wrath of the punishment that he imposed.

Yep... you're on solid granite there buddy.

LOL, I'm not going to waste time AGAIN unraveling your twisted wording....been there, done that.

You're just tooooo smart for God avxo!
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2016, 07:23:37 AM »

Only way to be free of our sin is through Jesus Christ. 
But what makes you so sure that Allah isn't the correct path? Or that maybe the rock outside your house is?

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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 09:49:35 AM »

LOL, I'm not going to waste time AGAIN unraveling your twisted wording....been there, done that.

You're just tooooo smart for God avxo!

Can you identify even one inaccuracy in what I wrote? Never mind - it's a rhetorical question.
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2016, 03:29:37 PM »

Can you identify even one inaccuracy in what I wrote? Never mind - it's a rhetorical question.

Yes, I know you wrote "rhetorical", but I'll give you one from the first part of your statement.  God created man and was pleased....they turned out exactly as he created them. 
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2016, 04:35:50 PM »

Yes, I know you wrote "rhetorical", but I'll give you one from the first part of your statement.  God created man and was pleased....they turned out exactly as he created them.

Uh huh... so, what you're saying, is that God intended for Adam and Eve to be deceived by the snake, eat from the tree of knowledge and to be cast out of Paradise? If that's the case, why punish Adam and Eve (and, by extension, the rest of humanity) at all?
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2016, 09:07:04 AM »

Uh huh... so, what you're saying, is that God intended for Adam and Eve to be deceived by the snake, eat from the tree of knowledge and to be cast out of Paradise? If that's the case, why punish Adam and Eve (and, by extension, the rest of humanity) at all?

Actually what I'm saying is what I just wrote in that God created man and woman and was pleased.

Now, what you're asking is if God knew they would rebel why punish them?  

Short answer:  Because they rebelled.  

God's foreknowledge isn't forceknowledge....it doesn't dictate the choices made (we've discussed this previously).  They broke the only rule he gave them and suffered punishment because of that law breaking.  Now, if a person is going to make a genuine choice to accept or reject God they can't have the deck stacked against them either way.  They need access to all potential choices and the ability to freely choose them.  That's why he allowed Satan to tempt in them.  You have God righteously commanding them to choose not to sin and you have Satan unrighteously tempting them to sin and they chose to defy God, align with unrighteousness and were punished (because God also demands justice).  

That sinful act permanently stained/flawed their human physical form bringing decay and eventual death to Adam and Eve and all humanity that descended from them.  The human body was now in perpetual state of decay and would die.   Further their sinful act spiritually corrupted them giving them full knowledge of good and evil and a proclivity for sin (some define this as a sinful nature).....they were also spiritually dead in sin.   It's not that people can't choose to do good (many of us do), but all will also choose to sin (in varying degrees of sin as well) and will be held accountable for that sin....God prophetically professed in his foreknowledge that all have sinned.   We all also know God's law both directly (via the scripture) and instinctively (via our consciences).

      
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 09:06:00 PM »

Actually what I'm saying is what I just wrote in that God created man and woman and was pleased.

So he "created" them perfect, they just went bad later...


Now, what you're asking is if God knew they would rebel why punish them?

No, I'm asking why would he create them with an, apparently, fatal flaw: the ability to sin.


Short answer:  Because they rebelled.

Why allow them to do that?


God's foreknowledge isn't forceknowledge...

Right... your favorite trick. God's foreknowledge isn't really foreknowledge as we understand it. Just like how God's love isn't really love as we understanding it, and God's justice isn't really justice as we understand it, and so on and so forth for every quality you choose to ascribe to God. You use a word, but the word means something other than its plain meaning. At which point why use it?


it doesn't dictate the choices made (we've discussed this previously).

Yes, we have discussed this previously, so I'll just only briefly remind you that you cannot have inerrant foreknowledge of everything (which God, supposedly, has according to the Bible, to the point that he knew, from the beginning, who would be saved and who would not, after all is said is done) and freedom of choice at the same time.


They broke the only rule he gave them and suffered punishment because of that law breaking.

He knew they'd break the rule, so what's the point in testing them?


Now, if a person is going to make a genuine choice to accept or reject God they can't have the deck stacked against them either way.

The deck is ALREADY stack when you have original sin and, as  you admit, humans have a proclivity to sin.


They need access to all potential choices and the ability to freely choose them.  That's why he allowed Satan to tempt in them.

Just to be clear this "freedom of choice" that your God grants equates to: "I already know what you'll choose, but let's pretend you're choosing freely anyways. And remember, if you choose wrong you - and everyone after you - will suffer the consequences. Ready? Let's play... LIFE!"

And after, apparently, failing in this test, God goes on to punish his creations and their descendants and continues punishing them for centuries. And instead of simply stopping this punishment and saying "enough is enough with this craziness... I need to take a deep breath and talk to a shrink about my anger issues", he concocts a plan whereby he'll sacrificing himself to appease himself.


You have God righteously commanding them to choose not to sin and you have Satan unrighteously tempting them to sin and they chose to defy God, align with unrighteousness and were punished (because God also demands justice).

Justice you say? Where is the justice in your God punishing not just Adam and Eve, but the entire human race? Where is the justice in "Original Sin"?


That sinful act permanently stained/flawed their human physical form bringing decay and eventual death to Adam and Eve and all humanity that descended from them.

Yep, the sins of the parents are imposed on the children. Very just... we could learn a lot from God's divine justice.


The human body was now in perpetual state of decay and would die.

Even if it was, surely that's something God could fix. Shit, he breathed life into Adam and made Eve from a rib. You'd imagine he could fix this little problem with toenail clippings and some saliva or something.


Further their sinful act spiritually corrupted them giving them full knowledge of good and evil and a proclivity for sin (some define this as a sinful nature).....they were also spiritually dead in sin.

If people have a proclivity for sin, then punishing them for sinning is like forcing them to play a game with loaded dice and make them liable for their losses. It's unjust and immoral.


It's not that people can't choose to do good (many of us do), but all will also choose to sin (in varying degrees of sin as well) and will be held accountable for that sin....

Holding people to a standard that is, by the standard-holder's own admission, impossible to live up to and punishing those who fail to live up to it is unjust and immoral.

God prophetically professed in his foreknowledge that all have sinned.   We all also know God's law both directly (via the scripture) and instinctively (via our consciences).

You conscience tells you not to eat shellfish?
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