Insulin actual mechanism of growth is probably this, not "nutrient shuttling"

[pupil B]

editted in disclaimer: I was encouraged to post explaining this in another thread, and I am doing so very quickly and without much effort here to just get this concept out for research by you guys and to facilitate discussion. I have put only about 15 mins into this post, it is not very comprehensive or all encompassing, I am merely trying to get the ideas into your heads so you can think about this and help research it more to help give or take away its credibility and relevance to how insulin causes growth in bodybuilding. I have never seen this mentioned even once in all my time researching steroids/hormones/drugs or I would not be bothering to write a post about it myself.

I just got back from a long day of traffic, lab, and lectures and I am dead tired but i'll just write brief off the top of my head. I am a medical student and we learned something interesting about insulin some time ago and this is honestly way more likely to be the cause of insulins growth properties than simply shuttling nutrients. The professor was explaining that there is this concept in biochemistry called "spare receptors", where a specific cell has say, 100 receptors for a specific ligand, but only 10 of those are required for the full downstream effect to take place within the cell. Insulin is one of these ligands that "spare receptors" applies to. So whether you have 10 molecules of insulin bound to 10 receptors or 100 molecules bound to 100 (made up numbers obviously, you get the point), it does not matter, the maximum effect is achieved and the resulting downstream effect that results inside the cell is the same.  It was further explained that many of these ligands (such as insulin) that have spare receptors often have secondary effects when present in large concentrations. Insulin is the example that was used throughout this discussion, and so it was explained how insulin in high concentrations actually binds to the IGF-1 receptor and causes growth this way, organs were mentioned as an example (think of the "hgh gut" people, makes perfect sense). And this is talking about relatively "high" concentrations in terms of normal people amounts. I would imagine their term "high" is absolutely nothing in comparison to actually astronomical amounts, such as... bodybuilders injecting hundreds of units of insulin per day).

In my full write up I was planning on doing, I would have done some research for each specific substances affinity for each receptor relevant to this discussion. Upon very very brief research in order to simply just get this concept out there for discussion,

"dose-dependent effects of GH and IGF-1 treatments on nitrogen metabolism, intestinal structure, and hepatic IGF-1-messenger RNA (mRNA) expression in postoperative parenterally fed rats"

"1 mg/kg/d of IGF-1 were equivalent to those of 0.66 IU/kg/d of GH"

One mole of IGF-1 weighs about 33.4% more than one mole of insulin, and one iu of insulin = 0.0347mg (numbers were googled very quickly and may be error prone I am dead tired and not putting much effort into this right now). So 1mg/kg/d of igf-1 = 0.75mg/kg/d of insulin or 21.6iu/kg/day. THIS IS NOT ACCOUNTING FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL AFFINITY FOR THE IGF-1 RECEPTORS, THIS IS WHERE IT IS A WILD BASELESS ESTIMATE, but my point is not to give precise numbers, it is to show the general concept.

So take a 100kg bodybuilder. If we say that 1mg of igf-1 (keep in mind the price of this shit... people pay I think ~$130-180 for a ONE MILLIGRAM VIAL because of the results) = 0.75mg of insulin or 21.6iu... With the pros injecting insulin like water, let's say 300 (i have seen much more than this and this might even be a low estimate. no these doses of long acting insulin are not gonna kill them from hypo.), that's approximately the equivalent of 14mg igf-1 or like $2000 worth of shit each day?

Again the exact numbers are irrelevant and useless without somehow researching insulins affinity for every igf-1 receptor in the body, but this is the general point and I am sure you understand. This is not me pulling shit out of my ass this whole idea is due to what a ph.d in both molecular biology and biochemistry said regarding insulin and igf-1 receptors when teaching at a medical school. And you must admit that it makes much more sense than simply "pushing nutrients into cells". I am no ph.d but what else would the food do if not go into the muscles even without hundreds of units of insulin, stay in your blood stream to take a nice enjoyable bath, and then proceed to magically disappear without being used for either fat or muscle? It is also not as if the body doesn't produce insulin of its own when food is ingested (although obviously not in obscene BB amounts). It does not make much sense that the whole nutrient pushing thing is solely responsible for such massive growth, I believe this explanation is much more sensible and again it comes from a ph.d in molecular biology and biochemistry.

All the research I used here was found quickly on google I am sure I could get better and more concrete numbers/examples given time but I just wanted to get this out here quickly now so people could discuss it, and before I got too lazy to do it. I was intending this as a quick reply to a post in a thread where I said I would briefly explain it but I got slightly carried away and thought this deserves its own thread.

edit: no i will not show you the original medical school materials, I cannot risk being caught doing that especially on a forum about illegal drugs and ruin my life.

EDIT: PROOF I AM not pulling this out of my ass, again just short amounts of googling due to a PM request:
https://www.karger.com/Article/PDF/184146
https://www.karger.com/Article/ShowPic/184146/?image=000184146-1.jpg
... "Thus, stimulation of IGF-1 receptors may be obtained in vitro with high amounts of insulin."

[Irongrip400]

You’re worse than fucking Matt.

[robcguns]

You’re worse than fucking Matt.

Hahaha

[pupil B]

You’re worse than fucking Matt.

surely fucking a specimen as sexy as matt can't be such bad thing ,,

[harmankardon1]

editted in disclaimer: I was encouraged to post explaining this in another thread, and I am doing so very quickly and without much effort here to just get this concept out for research by you guys and to facilitate discussion. I have put only about 15 mins into this post, it is not very comprehensive or all encompassing, I am merely trying to get the ideas into your heads so you can think about this and help research it more to help give or take away its credibility and relevance to how insulin causes growth in bodybuilding. I have never seen this mentioned even once in all my time researching steroids/hormones/drugs or I would not be bothering to write a post about it myself.

I just got back from a long day of traffic, lab, and lectures and I am dead tired but i'll just write brief off the top of my head. I am a medical student and we learned something interesting about insulin some time ago and this is honestly way more likely to be the cause of insulins growth properties than simply shuttling nutrients. The professor was explaining that there is this concept in biochemistry called "spare receptors", where a specific cell has say, 100 receptors for a specific ligand, but only 10 of those are required for the full downstream effect to take place within the cell. Insulin is one of these ligands that "spare receptors" applies to. So whether you have 10 molecules of insulin bound to 10 receptors or 100 molecules bound to 100 (made up numbers obviously, you get the point), it does not matter, the maximum effect is achieved and the resulting downstream effect that results inside the cell is the same.  It was further explained that many of these ligands (such as insulin) that have spare receptors often have secondary effects when present in large concentrations. Insulin is the example that was used throughout this discussion, and so it was explained how insulin in high concentrations actually binds to the IGF-1 receptor and causes growth this way, organs were mentioned as an example (think of the "hgh gut" people, makes perfect sense). And this is talking about relatively "high" concentrations in terms of normal people amounts. I would imagine their term "high" is absolutely nothing in comparison to actually astronomical amounts, such as... bodybuilders injecting hundreds of units of insulin per day).

In my full write up I was planning on doing, I would have done some research for each specific substances affinity for each receptor relevant to this discussion. Upon very very brief research in order to simply just get this concept out there for discussion,

"dose-dependent effects of GH and IGF-1 treatments on nitrogen metabolism, intestinal structure, and hepatic IGF-1-messenger RNA (mRNA) expression in postoperative parenterally fed rats"

"1 mg/kg/d of IGF-1 were equivalent to those of 0.66 IU/kg/d of GH"

One mole of IGF-1 weighs about 33.4% more than one mole of insulin, and one iu of insulin = 0.0347mg (numbers were googled very quickly and may be error prone I am dead tired and not putting much effort into this right now). So 1mg/kg/d of igf-1 = 0.75mg/kg/d of insulin or 21.6iu/kg/day. THIS IS NOT ACCOUNTING FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL AFFINITY FOR THE IGF-1 RECEPTORS, THIS IS WHERE IT IS A WILD BASELESS ESTIMATE, but my point is not to give precise numbers, it is to show the general concept.

So take a 100kg bodybuilder. If we say that 1mg of igf-1 (keep in mind the price of this shit... people pay I think ~$130-180 for a ONE MILLIGRAM VIAL because of the results) = 0.75mg of insulin or 21.6iu... With the pros injecting insulin like water, let's say 300 (i have seen much more than this and this might even be a low estimate. no these doses of long acting insulin are not gonna kill them from hypo.), that's approximately the equivalent of 14mg igf-1 or like $2000 worth of shit each day?

Again the exact numbers are irrelevant and useless without somehow researching insulins affinity for every igf-1 receptor in the body, but this is the general point and I am sure you understand. This is not me pulling shit out of my ass this whole idea is due to what a ph.d in both molecular biology and biochemistry said regarding insulin and igf-1 receptors when teaching at a medical school. And you must admit that it makes much more sense than simply "pushing nutrients into cells". I am no ph.d but what else would the food do if not go into the muscles even without hundreds of units of insulin, stay in your blood stream to take a nice enjoyable bath, and then proceed to magically disappear without being used for either fat or muscle? It is also not as if the body doesn't produce insulin of its own when food is ingested (although obviously not in obscene BB amounts). It does not make much sense that the whole nutrient pushing thing is solely responsible for such massive growth, I believe this explanation is much more sensible and again it comes from a ph.d in molecular biology and biochemistry.

All the research I used here was found quickly on google I am sure I could get better and more concrete numbers/examples given time but I just wanted to get this out here quickly now so people could discuss it, and before I got too lazy to do it. I was intending this as a quick reply to a post in a thread where I said I would briefly explain it but I got slightly carried away and thought this deserves its own thread.

edit: no i will not show you the original medical school materials, I cannot risk being caught doing that especially on a forum about illegal drugs and ruin my life.

EDIT: PROOF I AM not pulling this out of my ass, again just short amounts of googling due to a PM request:
https://www.karger.com/Article/PDF/184146
https://www.karger.com/Article/ShowPic/184146/?image=000184146-1.jpg
... "Thus, stimulation of IGF-1 receptors may be obtained in vitro with high amounts of insulin."

This isn't a bad theory as to some of the mechanism of insulin growth.... But it doesn't explain the extra benefit when adding insulin in with already very high levels of igf present with gh and igf use, as is the case in pro bodybuilders..

One thing the phD doesn't think about is the overall physiological state of these bbers, they are not normal people, physiologically speaking, due to the cocktail of drugs they take....

The largest determination of the benefit found by a bber using insulin is their degree of insulin sensitivity. Large pro bbers use a large amount of growth hormone every day, this has been found to cause insulin resistance, so the bber using all this gh is no longer optimally utilising the nutrients he takes in, bber adds insulin all of a sudden he starts gaining a lot of muscle.....

This is further supported by the fact that aas users who do not use gh don't get great gains from adding insulin to their drug protocols because they are not insulin resistant from gh abuse (I experienced this myself when I have used insulin in the past). These observations support the theory that insulins main mechanism of growth is its ability to transport nutrients.

It's a nice theory though and could very well be adding some muscle gain benefits along with the main effect that insulin has... Imo.

[harmankardon1]

Remember that a gh or igf using bber will have very high levels of igf hormones in their body already present and that these ligands bind their receptors in a dose dependent affinity to their receptor, so the fact that there are already very high levels of these hormones in these individuals mean that these receptors will be already heavily bound and that off target binding by adding insulin is made even less likely.....

It's true insulin may off target Bind to igf receptors due to the similar molecular structure of the two molecules but in cases where the actual molecule is present in high amounts (eg igf1) there will be likely very little off target binding of insulin to any igf receptors as the igf molecules already present in large amounts have a much greater affinity to their respective receptors....

[pellius]

A bit over my head but there is one point that resonated with me. The idea of pushing more nutrients into the muscle. Say you ingest 200 grams of carbs and take 20 ius of Humulin R. Yes, that insulin will help shuttle the glucose from those carbs into the cells (I'm not sure if it's just muscle cells) but my question is, so what? No matter how many carbs you consume, if you are healthy, your body is always going to produce enough insulin to shuttle those nutrients in any way. Does it really matter with muscle hypertrophy if it takes an hour (taking that 20ius) or two hours to do this? As posted, where are all these "extra" glucose going to go? As long as there is glucose in the blood at a specific level a healthy body is always going to produce enough insulin to shuttle it to the muscles or fat cells.

[Grape Ape]

TL:DR:GFY

[pellius]

To me, it does make sense to use insulin prior to a workout so that you have it in your system working while training while at the same time you supply your body with predigested nutrients (amino acids, dextrose, creatine...). That way you are pumping nutrient-rich blood into the muscles cells instead of going into a catabolic state and having to "catch up" post workout.

As Milos explained it:

So here is rationale behind it. Men have about 5L of blood and women have about 4L distributed all over the body which is constantly circulating around. In a state of rest at maximum about 10 -12 % of that blood finds its way in to our skeletal muscles, as there is no real physiological demand at the time of a low physical activity period. However, when we become active, blood is sent to our working muscles… and that increased blood flow to exercising muscles (Hyperemia) can achieve an astonishing 60% increase in blood flow or more during weight training. This happens ONLY during the workout!

So as my father suggested, if I supply all the necessary anabolic nutrients in a pre-digested form (e.g; ATP, glucose, amino acids etc) into the blood stream right before training and then continue delivering more of the same nutrients during my training session whilst raising the most anabolic hormone in our body – insulin – I will create an immediate and maximal anabolic environment.

So instead of losing nutrients (protein degradation or catabolism) we are creating a greater nutritional uptake by our muscle cells (protein synthesis or anabolism) and simultaneously preventing anti-catabolism… everything we need to great the maximal results we are after. So we need to remember that we only have this opportunity during training, not before or after as blood will not be in the muscle to this extent.

It doesn’t make sense to send an empty plane from Sydney to LAX with no passengers on it does it? So why send empty blood through the working muscle, when you have a unique opportunity to insert all these nutrients into our cells?

[JuicedKangaroo]

Great post, very interesting.

You’re worse than fucking Matt.

Come on, he's not talking about slit or penile length 

[harmankardon1]

A bit over my head but there is one point that resonated with me. The idea of pushing more nutrients into the muscle. Say you ingest 200 grams of carbs and take 20 ius of Humulin R. Yes, that insulin will help shuttle the glucose from those carbs into the cells (I'm not sure if it's just muscle cells) but my question is, so what? No matter how many carbs you consume, if you are healthy, your body is always going to produce enough insulin to shuttle those nutrients in any way. Does it really matter with muscle hypertrophy if it takes an hour (taking that 20ius) or two hours to do this? As posted, where are all these "extra" glucose going to go? As long as there is glucose in the blood at a specific level a healthy body is always going to produce enough insulin to shuttle it to the muscles or fat cells.

 ^ you said it "if the body is healthy"... pro bodybuilders that abuse gh become insulin resistant and don't optimally utilise nutrients they consume...

Also I think there is a benefit to ramming nutrients with greater than normal physiological doses of insulin as anyone that eats 100gram's of carbs constantly or in a single meal there is going be added insulin resistance on that front also that insulin use can overcome.

[pellius]

^ you said it "if the body is healthy"... pro bodybuilders that abuse gh become insulin resistant and don't optimally utilise nutrients they consume...

Also I think there is a benefit to ramming nutrients with greater than normal physiological doses of insulin as anyone that eats 100gram's of carbs constantly or in a single meal there is going be added insulin resistance on that front also that insulin use can overcome.

Don't you think it matters what kind of carbs you eat? If you are eating complex carbs you don't get the insulin spike that you do with simple carbs. The difference between eating jelly beans versus oatmeal. The complex carbs are more "time released" and give you a more sustained energy release and no insulin spike.

Also, what do you think of Milos' theory about supplying nutrients, predigested nutrients, that go right into your bloodstream and into your muscle while you are training since that's the only time when the muscles get such a large influx of blood supply and using insulin to shuttle it in there fast when you most need it? 

[harmankardon1]

Don't you think it matters what kind of carbs you eat? If you are eating complex carbs you don't get the insulin spike that you do with simple carbs. The difference between eating jelly beans versus oatmeal. The complex carbs are more "time released" and give you a more sustained energy release and no insulin spike.

Also, what do you think of Milos' theory about supplying nutrients, predigested nutrients, that go right into your bloodstream and into your muscle while you are training since that's the only time when the muscles get such a large influx of blood supply and using insulin to shuttle it in there fast when you most need it? 

When talking about nattys i don't think it matters as much because you don't have that anabolic environment from super high androgens, gh igf and insulin..... so really spiking insulin then in natural amounts, I don't know that you are really getting that big anabolic response you are when your jacked up on everything.

I'm not a fan of milos, I think his attitude is just take more and more insulin and it's the answer for everything.... His "scientific" explanations are always full of errors.

The big takeaway imo is that whilst there are drug protocols that generally speaking we can all more or less follow, the same is not true of nutrition. We all make different amounts of different enzymes and have substantial differences metabolically, so what works great for one will not work so great for the next guy, this means unfortunately we all have to try different things nutritionally and see what works in our bodies.

This is a reason nutritional research is so hit and miss and not really great for individuals, as they average the data from a large group of people who all have different responses to whatever they are testing. Stats are good for working through data and estimating large groups, (like giving general guidelines for a population), but cannot predict an individual response.

[pellius]

When talking about nattys i don't think it matters as much because you don't have that anabolic environment from super high androgens, gh igf and insulin..... so really spiking insulin then in natural amounts, I don't know that you are really getting that big anabolic response you are when your jacked up on everything.

I'm not a fan of milos, I think his attitude is just take more and more insulin and it's the answer for everything.... His "scientific" explanations are always full of errors.

The big takeaway imo is that whilst there are drug protocols that generally speaking we can all more or less follow, the same is not true of nutrition. We all make different amounts of different enzymes and have substantial differences metabolically, so what works great for one will not work so great for the next guy, this means unfortunately we all have to try different things nutritionally and see what works in our bodies.

This is a reason nutritional research is so hit and miss and not really great for individuals, as they average the data from a large group of people who all have different responses to whatever they are testing. Stats are good for working through data and estimating large groups, (like giving general guidelines for a population), but cannot predict an individual response.

Very thoughtful and informative posts. You seem very well educated on this subject. I'd like to get VanB on here as this is right up his alley.

[harmankardon1]

Very thoughtful and informative posts. You seem very well educated on this subject. I'd like to get VanB on here as this is right up his alley.

Cheers mate

[willl]

thanks pupil, i got the idea now

but to me it doesn't resonate with the claims you made first
"insulin is not the reason for larger muscle through nutrient shuttling"

insulin is (in great part) responsible for shuttling nutrients in muscle cells
the texts and info you provided offer additional information as to what else is or can be done with insulin when it's "spilling over"
and that's good stuff, so thanks

[willl]

Also I think there is a benefit to ramming nutrients with greater than normal physiological doses of insulin as anyone that eats 100gram's of carbs constantly or in a single meal there is going be added insulin resistance on that front also that insulin use can overcome.

i don't think you can treat insulin resistance by adding in more exogenous insulin

[willl]

Don't you think it matters what kind of carbs you eat? If you are eating complex carbs you don't get the insulin spike that you do with simple carbs. The difference between eating jelly beans versus oatmeal. The complex carbs are more "time released" and give you a more sustained energy release and no insulin spike.

Also, what do you think of Milos' theory about supplying nutrients, predigested nutrients, that go right into your bloodstream and into your muscle while you are training since that's the only time when the muscles get such a large influx of blood supply and using insulin to shuttle it in there fast when you most need it? 

digestion and the time it takes to digest carbs is what will determine the rate at which glucose is released

the milos theory works in practice

but i do believe large amounts of slin will also increase gut swelling..

[willl]

The big takeaway imo is that whilst there are drug protocols that generally speaking we can all more or less follow, the same is not true of nutrition. We all make different amounts of different enzymes and have substantial differences metabolically, so what works great for one will not work so great for the next guy, this means unfortunately we all have to try different things nutritionally and see what works in our bodies.

This is a reason nutritional research is so hit and miss and not really great for individuals, as they average the data from a large group of people who all have different responses to whatever they are testing. Stats are good for working through data and estimating large groups, (like giving general guidelines for a population), but cannot predict an individual response.

i think the opposite regarding the drug protocol part
i think most people will have a very different reaction to a similar drug protocol

for example a 10mg dbol pill a day can do wonders for some and nothing for others

i think it's all very individual, the training, the food, the drugs, the everything

[joswift]

TL:DR:GFY

this...

[Van_Bilderass]

A lot could be said about insulin but even though igf-1
probably plays a part in its pro-anabolic effects it's not like igf is responsible for the massive and quick weight gain. It's water. Neither IGF nor GH causes massive muscle gain , by themselves they build virtually no muscle. No one is gaining 30lbs of muscle in a month due to insulin cross-reacting with IGF receptors.

I think the main beneficial effects of insulin from a bodybuilder's POV is the water volumization, simply a cosmetic effect, which is no small thing for a competitive bb. Anyone who has used it knows you can put on a bunch of pounds overnight and it goes away just as fast when you stop. It's like filling a balloon with water.
It fixes the insulin resistance from gh or more correctly puts a band-aid on it. It's very anti-catabolic and long term I would guess this is its main benefit for real muscle growth. Milos' idea of using it before workouts does make sense especially if one does very catabolic giant set marathon workouts. Increased blood flow to muscle while having aminos in the blood may be beneficial for muscle growth and apart from the workout insulin itself increases blood flow. Since we are constantly breaking down and building muscle, if we can reduce breakdown we end up with more muscle.

What many don't know about insulin is the main mechanism behind the blood glucose lowering effect, and it may be worth knowing. It is not by opening up the cells so they accept glucose. Insulin stops glucose release from the liver. From what I remember reading diabetics who skip their insulin keep storing glucose but since there is no break to stop liver glucose production BG skyrockets.

So yeah, maybe "nutrient shuttling" isn't the major reason it seems to "work" for bodybuilders.

[harmankardon1]

i don't think you can treat insulin resistance by adding in more exogenous insulin

You can, this is well established medical fact.... If you couldn't type two diabetics would all die from the condition.

I don't think you have a great understanding here.

[harmankardon1]

digestion and the time it takes to digest carbs is what will determine the rate at which glucose is released

the milos theory works in practice

but i do believe large amounts of slin will also increase gut swelling..

Gut swelling?

[Hulkotron]

TL,DR,FO

[JuicedKangaroo]

i don't think you can treat insulin resistance by adding in more exogenous insulin