Getbig scientists: Are microtears bro-science?

[Al Doggity]

When internet physiologists describe how you build muscle, the most common description is that intense physical activity creates microtears in the muscle and it repairs itself into denser and stronger fiber, a lot like scar tissue.

However, there have been plenty of studies that have shown you can build muscle without working out at all while on gear. So, that seems to suggest that there's another type of muscle building process going on while using peds. There's also the concept of "muscle memory". If you were in very good shape at one point, you have a leg up to get in good shape again quickly if you take a hiatus. Once again, this doesn't seem like a matter of breaking down muscle.

I've always thought the microtear thing sounded like bullshit, but assumed it was solid science. I've been  thoroughly researching this matter (via a handful of half-assed google searches) and I'm actually not sure it is solid science. It seems like something people just keep repeating because someone said it at one point.

For those of you who follow studies (or are better at googling than I am), are microtears  a dumber concept than deadlifts?

[el numero uno]

I still remember when I rushed to eat/drink something as postworkout worrying about missing the anabolic window and going catabolic.

[a_pupil]

I still remember when I rushed to eat/drink something as postworkout worrying about missing the anabolic window and going catabolic.

I use to get the whey (in water, for immediate absorption), waxy maze/dextrose, creatine and glutamine shake within 30 minutes, then a post workout meal within 1.5 hours.

the innocent days 

[Flexacon]

I use to get the whey (in water, for immediate absorption), waxy maze/dextrose, creatine and glutamine shake within 30 minutes, then a post workout meal within 1.5 hours.

the innocent days  

You forgot the salt! You've ruined the window of opportunity and that's why you remain a tiny tit.

[Tbomzisback!]

Making sure you have aminos in your blood during and after training isn't bro science but a big plate of chicken an hour or two before training will do the trick

For hard gainers drinking sugar before and during training is a good idea too

[oldtimer1]

When biopsies are done on guys with big muscles and untrained men it was found the muscle fibers are the same size. Admittedly this was a very old study from many years ago. Current research could dispute this. Could it be lifting causes muscle fibers to be created? 

[pellius]

Children gain muscle as they get older even if they never worked out a day in their lives. I never believe this "micro-tear" theory of building muscle. You can get micro-tears from training and this might be the cause of muscle soreness but if muscle tears caused muscles to grow even bigger than Dorian's left arm would be massive. I've had tears in on my left pec, left bicep, right quad and I know this by how it felt. I could literally feel the ripping in my left pec, and then the subsequent black and blue all over the area. There was no muscle growth in those areas

[BlackMetallic]

Child gain muscle as they get older even if they never worked out a day in their lives. I never believe this "micro-tear" theory of building muscle. You can get micro-tears from training and this might be the cause of muscle soreness but if muscle tears caused muscles to grow even bigger than Dorian's left arm would be massive. I've had tears in on my left pec, left bicep, right quad and I know this by how it felt. I could literally feel the ripping in my left pec, and then the subsequent black and blue all over the area. There was no muscle growth in those areas

I read most soreness u feel is actually ur tendons not muscle

[pellius]

I read most soreness u feel is actually ur tendons not muscle

I don't think so. Tendons get very little if any blood supply and are much stronger fibers than muscle fibers since that is what is used to attach the muscle to the bone. When I get muscle soreness in my pecs for instants. I can literally feel by touch where the soreness is and it's always right in the belly of the muscle. But I could be wrong. Do you have a link of where you read that?

Also, I use to get a treatment called Prolotherapy. They inject a solution into your tendons to cause an inflammation response and get blood flow to the area because, as I mentioned before, they don't normally get much blood flow, therefore, it takes a lot longer to heal.

[POB]

The muscle memory thing is absolutely real. Also the whole point of going to the gym in bodybuilding is to workout the muscle group your targeting to failure then rest and feed it till it grows back stronger. That’s why rest and nutrition is so important. What you do out of the gym matters more than what you do in it especially if you throw in peds. If your nutrition is poor or you work the muscle group before it’s fully healed you won’t grow as fast as you could.

[Al Doggity]

The muscle memory thing is absolutely real. Also the whole point of going to the gym in bodybuilding is to workout the muscle group your targeting to failure then rest and feed it till it grows back stronger. That’s why rest and nutrition is so important. What you do out of the gym matters more than what you do in it especially if you throw in peds. If your nutrition is poor or you work the muscle group before it’s fully healed you won’t grow as fast as you could.

Don't know if you misunderstood my opening post, but I wasn't disputing if muscle memory is real. What I said is that since muscle memory is real, it runs counter to the idea that muscle has to be broken down by micro-tears to be built up. If the micro-tear theory is true, why do you regain strength and mass so quickly after you've built it up and taken a hiatus?

One of the points of this thread is that I don't think the micro-tearing thing is true, and I suspect that the  common conception about recovery might not be true, either. At least, not in the way we commonly accept it.

[IroNat]

I don't know. 

https://www.livestrong.com/article/140765-what-happens-muscles-after-lifting-weights/

Intense lifting causes several microscopic tears to form in the fiber and connective tissue of muscles, according to the Cleveland Clinic. With proper rest and nutrients, the muscles slowly rebuild over the following days, but full repair can take a week or more. For healing and growth, eat a meal of carbohydrates, protein and fat right after a workout, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.

[Al Doggity]

I don't know.  

https://www.livestrong.com/article/140765-what-happens-muscles-after-lifting-weights/

Intense lifting causes several microscopic tears to form in the fiber and connective tissue of muscles, according to the Cleveland Clinic. With proper rest and nutrients, the muscles slowly rebuild over the following days, but full repair can take a week or more. For healing and growth, eat a meal of carbohydrates, protein and fat right after a workout, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.

I followed your link directly to the cleveland clinic's website and it says this:

When you alternate between strength training and cardiovascular exercise, for example, your body has time to recover in between similar workouts, says certified athletic trainer Amanda McMahan.

She says, “When you place greater than normal resistance on a muscle, it causes small microscopic tears in the tissue. This is perfectly normal. The tearing allows the muscle to strengthen, allowing viability of the muscle to increase.”

So they are not quoting a doctor or a scientist, but a certified athletic trainer... who has surely performed multiple studies and lab tests to come to this conclusion, as opposed to just repeating some bro-science that everyone takes for granted.

BTW,  very little content on medical websites is written by medical professionals.

[Thin Lizzy]

Seems like a lot of the conventional wisdom about how muscles work has been incorrect. So, wouldn’t surprise me if this was at least an oversimplification.

For example, the whole type one and type two thing is a gross oversimplification. What you really have is a range of muscle fibers going from slow to fast.

[Thin Lizzy]

I believe the concept of an eccentric and isometric contraction is bullshit too.

Let’s say you’re holding a barbell at the halfway point of a bench press. The only difference between the bar going up, staying in the same position or lowering slowly to your chest is the amount of force applied. The muscles are doing the same thing in all three cases.

[Humble Narcissist]

Nobody knows nothin.

[tres_taco_combo]

muscle memory is very real

[Al Doggity]

I believe the concept of an eccentric and isometric contraction is bullshit too.

Let’s say you’re holding a barbell at the halfway point of a bench press. The only difference between the bar going up, staying in the same position or lowering slowly to your chest is the amount of force applied. The muscles are doing the same thing in all three cases.

I actually think part of the eccentric/isometric dogma was established to justify the microtearing concept.

Another thing about tearing. Why would there be  minor tears all along  muscle fibers? Nothing else tears like that. If you split your jeans, they didn't micro tear in dozens of places up and down the leg. They split in one spot where there was the most pressure. Even when you have a serious muscle tear, it's usually in one spot. So why would  a moderate to intense workout cause tears evenly distributed tears all along your muscle fibers?

muscle memory is very real

You are the second person who seemed to misunderstood what I was saying there and I'm not sure how I could have written it more clearly. I  did not say that muscle memory is not real. I DO think it's real. What I did say is that since it is real, that I consider it more proof that muscle tearing is not a real thing.

[IroNat]

What about muscle goo?

Is muscle goo real?

[pellius]

Since it has been well established that you don't need resistance training to gain muscle it follows that "microtears" are not necessary for muscle growth. They give cows Finaplix (tren acetate) to increase lean muscle and they don't do shit. That "study" posted gave no evidence of how, or even if, microtears increase muscle size. I can see how very heavy training may cause microtears in the muscle but not those using light resistance and fatigue the muscle through time under tension yet they are able to increase muscle size.

[IroNat]

Arnold said visualization build muscles.

[Humble Narcissist]

Arnold said visualization build muscles.

So did Platz.  The secret formula is: great genetics + loads of steroids + training + visualization = great physique.

The first 2 in the formula are most important.

[harmankardon1]

So did Platz.  The secret formula is: great genetics + loads of steroids + training + visualization = great physique.

The first 2 in the formula are most important.

All you need is genetics, food and steroids.... Last two must be consistent for years, bam your a pro.

As we see in the pro ranks intelligence and personality are not prerequisites, much the opposite