Feeder sets again

[oldtimer1]

In 2019 Tres taco combo  put up a thread about Piana's feeder reps protocol.  It seemed to gather a lot of interest on this site. Just wanted to know how guys were doing with it that gave it a fair chance.  I tried it for couple of days but abandoned it. The pumps were insane. Since I'm a low set trainer I don't experience the pumps that volume trainers get. Just wondered if I abandoned the training tool too soon.

[oldtimer1]

I get you don't train.  You're just interested in muscular guys.

[Walter Sobchak]

In 2019 Tres taco combo  put up a thread about Piana's feeder reps protocol.  It seemed to gather a lot of interest on this site. Just wanted to know how guys were doing with it that gave it a fair chance.  I tried it for couple of days but abandoned it. The pumps were insane. Since I'm a low set trainer I don't experience the pumps that volume trainers get. Just wondered if I abandoned the training tool too soon.

Sounds like you suck the training tool and swallow the man gravy.

[Kwon]

Why is it called "Feeder" set?

[oldtimer1]

Why is it called "Feeder" set?

I think that oil bodybuilder Piana named it that. It's an old technique that used to be called muscle spinning in the old Weider magazines in the 60's.  I think Piana said it's feeding the muscle hence feeder. If you're not familiar with  it's doing an extra mini workout for a body part like arms before going to bed every night. It involves very light weights like 10lbs or 15lb for a high rep sets like 50 to 100 reps for triceps and biceps. Maybe two sets. Piana swears it works wonders to increase muscle. It's not a substitute for your regular weight work out for arms. Last year there was a thread about it that went on for 9 to 10 pages. I started this thread to find out what was the consensus of those that used the technique.

[IroNat]

Best thing would be to test it out and see how it went.

[Hypertrophy]

Complete nonsense. Lots of studies showing submaximal high volume does little. Besides- Piana injected plastic in his arms. Yeah- those “feeder” sets do miracles

[oldtimer1]

It was a think back in the 60's way before he renamed it to Feeder sets.

[oldtimer1]

Complete nonsense. Lots of studies showing submaximal high volume does little. Besides- Piana injected plastic in his arms. Yeah- those “feeder” sets do miracles

There are no facts in exercise physiology. Only theories. If there were facts we would be training on the same split using  identical protocols. Sometimes the best "scientists" in bodybuilding look like crap and the guys that can't remember what they did for chest the day before look great. In the words of the late Jeff Everson, "Until pigs fly you don't have to be scientist to be a bodybuilder."

 Greg Zulak who has seen so many pros train in person said almost all train with volume and moderate weights. He also said when he trained his thighs with eight reps per set he got nowhere. When he trained thighs with 50 reps for four sets in the leg press his thighs started to grow. A stronger muscle is  a bigger muscle but I think what really gets hypertrophy is training for muscular endurance for lack of a better term. Making a muscle adapt to training for muscular endurance is the key. If strength was the magic bullet we would all be training with sets of one rep to get stronger. I think a pump plays a vital role in the growth of muscles. So feeder sets might actually be based in a very scientific principal of training the muscle for muscular endurance. If you do say 5 sets of 12 the first three sets can be accomplished without failure. Set four maybe you fail at 10. Set five at 8.  A hit guy would say why not up the weight and do one set of eight to failure? I don't think failure is a the magic bullet for muscle growth without combining it with muscular endurance.

I think feeder sets have value. How much is what I'd like to know. That's why I want to hear from guys that have used it. Empirical knowledge is more important than poorly designed studies by a chubby exercise physiologists at this point.

[Hypertrophy]

There are no facts in exercise physiology. Only theories.

You lost me at your first sentence. Every hear about ATP? That's in exercise physiology. I guess it's existence  was a theory until researchers actually measured the concentration in the muscle post exertion. Same with citrase synthase and a host of other substances directly responsible for muscle growth. That's not theory. It's fact.

The  laughable part about bodybuilding is it never amounted to anything until steroids hit the market. DeLormes' method for hypertrophy was the state of the art in exercise physiology and it isn't a theory. It worked on lots of soldiers recovering from war injuries. The old 5x5 method used by Reg Park was pretty much a parallel system to Delorme's and it still works well. As well as can be expected given that all physical adaptations still follow endocrinological cycles discovered by Hans Selye. That's no theory either. You can measure cortisol levels precisely as a function of stimulus and response.

As soon as Dianabol hit the gyms  everybody had this "magic" routine to get bigger. They just failed to mention Mother's little helper. It was created by a bunch of chubby guys in Switzerland.

[AbrahamG]

Sounds like you suck the training tool and swallow the man gravy.

Coming from the guy who looks at shirtless photos of Shizzo every day.

[oldtimer1]

You lost me at your first sentence. Every hear about ATP? That's in exercise physiology. I guess it's existence  was a theory until researchers actually measured the concentration in the muscle post exertion. Same with citrase synthase and a host of other substances directly responsible for muscle growth. That's not theory. It's fact.

The  laughable part about bodybuilding is it never amounted to anything until steroids hit the market. DeLormes' method for hypertrophy was the state of the art in exercise physiology and it isn't a theory. It worked on lots of soldiers recovering from war injuries. The old 5x5 method used by Reg Park was pretty much a parallel system to Delorme's and it still works well. As well as can be expected given that all physical adaptations still follow endocrinological cycles discovered by Hans Selye. That's no theory either. You can measure cortisol levels precisely as a function of stimulus and response.

As soon as Dianabol hit the gyms  everybody had this "magic" routine to get bigger. They just failed to mention Mother's little helper. It was created by a bunch of chubby guys in Switzerland.

Misspoke. I should have typed training protocols instead of exercise physiology.

[oldtimer1]

You lost me at your first sentence. Every hear about ATP? That's in exercise physiology. I guess it's existence  was a theory until researchers actually measured the concentration in the muscle post exertion. Same with citrase synthase and a host of other substances directly responsible for muscle growth. That's not theory. It's fact.

The  laughable part about bodybuilding is it never amounted to anything until steroids hit the market. DeLormes' method for hypertrophy was the state of the art in exercise physiology and it isn't a theory. It worked on lots of soldiers recovering from war injuries. The old 5x5 method used by Reg Park was pretty much a parallel system to Delorme's and it still works well. As well as can be expected given that all physical adaptations still follow endocrinological cycles discovered by Hans Selye. That's no theory either. You can measure cortisol levels precisely as a function of stimulus and response.

As soon as Dianabol hit the gyms  everybody had this "magic" routine to get bigger. They just failed to mention Mother's little helper. It was created by a bunch of chubby guys in Switzerland.

If 5 x 5 is the best way to train than you will have a big problem with all the successes using high reps. Champs have been made using high sets and lows sets. Champs have been made using low reps and high reps. I have a problem with anyone who says they have the answers. We have training theories and not training facts. To claim anyone has the optimal way to train is a charlatan. What we have is empirical knowledge. It says volume is the optimal way to train.

[pellius]

You lost me at your first sentence. Every hear about ATP? That's in exercise physiology. I guess it's existence  was a theory until researchers actually measured the concentration in the muscle post exertion. Same with citrase synthase and a host of other substances directly responsible for muscle growth. That's not theory. It's fact.

The  laughable part about bodybuilding is it never amounted to anything until steroids hit the market. DeLormes' method for hypertrophy was the state of the art in exercise physiology and it isn't a theory. It worked on lots of soldiers recovering from war injuries. The old 5x5 method used by Reg Park was pretty much a parallel system to Delorme's and it still works well. As well as can be expected given that all physical adaptations still follow endocrinological cycles discovered by Hans Selye. That's no theory either. You can measure cortisol levels precisely as a function of stimulus and response.

As soon as Dianabol hit the gyms  everybody had this "magic" routine to get bigger. They just failed to mention Mother's little helper. It was created by a bunch of chubby guys in Switzerland.

I have to call attention to a couple of flaws in your otherwise insightful comment: John Ziegler was neither fat nor from Switzerland.

[pellius]

There are no facts in exercise physiology. Only theories. If there were facts we would be training on the same split using  identical protocols. Sometimes the best "scientists" in bodybuilding look like crap and the guys that can't remember what they did for chest the day before look great. In the words of the late Jeff Everson, "Until pigs fly you don't have to be scientist to be a bodybuilder."

 Greg Zulak who has seen so many pros train in person said almost all train with volume and moderate weights. He also said when he trained his thighs with eight reps per set he got nowhere. When he trained thighs with 50 reps for four sets in the leg press his thighs started to grow. A stronger muscle is  a bigger muscle but I think what really gets hypertrophy is training for muscular endurance for lack of a better term. Making a muscle adapt to training for muscular endurance is the key. If strength was the magic bullet we would all be training with sets of one rep to get stronger. I think a pump plays a vital role in the growth of muscles. So feeder sets might actually be based in a very scientific principal of training the muscle for muscular endurance. If you do say 5 sets of 12 the first three sets can be accomplished without failure. Set four maybe you fail at 10. Set five at 8.  A hit guy would say why not up the weight and do one set of eight to failure? I don't think failure is a the magic bullet for muscle growth without combining it with muscular endurance.

I think feeder sets have value. How much is what I'd like to know. That's why I want to hear from guys that have used it. Empirical knowledge is more important than poorly designed studies by a chubby exercise physiologists at this point.

How has this principle worked for you?

[IroNat]

Ziegley did not invent D-bol.  He had nothing to do with the creation of D-bol.  He did give it to York lifters and report to Ciba on its effectiveness.

>

"Metandienone was first described in 1955. It was synthesized by researchers at the CIBA laboratories in Basel, Switzerland. CIBA filed for a U.S. patent in 1957 and began marketing the drug as Dianabol in 1958 in the U.S. It was initially prescribed to burn victims and the elderly. It was also prescribed off-label as a pharmaceutical performance enhancement to weight lifters and other athletes. Early adopters included players for Oklahoma University and San Diego Chargers head coach Sid Gillman, who administered Dianabol to his team starting in 1963."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metandienone

[harmankardon1]

I think it has merit...

Increases bloodflow so increases nutrient and hormone delivery, therefore improves recovery rate.

[pellius]

Ziegley did not invent D-bol.  He had nothing to do with the creation of D-bol.  He did give it to York lifters and report to Ciba on its effectiveness.

>

"Metandienone was first described in 1955. It was synthesized by researchers at the CIBA laboratories in Basel, Switzerland. CIBA filed for a U.S. patent in 1957 and began marketing the drug as Dianabol in 1958 in the U.S. It was initially prescribed to burn victims and the elderly. It was also prescribed off-label as a pharmaceutical performance enhancement to weight lifters and other athletes. Early adopters included players for Oklahoma University and San Diego Chargers head coach Sid Gillman, who administered Dianabol to his team starting in 1963."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metandienone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bosley_Ziegler

John Bosley Ziegler (ca. 1920–1983) — known as John Ziegler and Montana Jack — was the American physician who originally developed the anabolic steroid Methandrostenolone (Dianabol, DBOL) which was released in the USA in 1958 by Ciba.[1][2] He pioneered its athletic use as an aid to muscle growth by bodybuilders, administering it to U.S. weightlifting champion Bill March of the York Barbell Club in 1959 when he was the physician to the U.S. Weightlifting team.[3] It was banned by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under the Controlled Substances Act. In later life he was outspoken against its use in sport, saying "It is bad enough to have to deal with drug addicts, but now healthy athletes are putting themselves in the same category. It's a disgrace. Who plays sports for fun anymore?"[4] Ziegler suffered from heart disease, which he partially ascribed to his experimentation with steroids,[citation needed] and he died from heart failure in 1983.

[OlympiaGym]

Ziegley did not invent D-bol.  He had nothing to do with the creation of D-bol.  He did give it to York lifters and report to Ciba on its effectiveness.

>

"Metandienone was first described in 1955. It was synthesized by researchers at the CIBA laboratories in Basel, Switzerland. CIBA filed for a U.S. patent in 1957 and began marketing the drug as Dianabol in 1958 in the U.S. It was initially prescribed to burn victims and the elderly. It was also prescribed off-label as a pharmaceutical performance enhancement to weight lifters and other athletes. Early adopters included players for Oklahoma University and San Diego Chargers head coach Sid Gillman, who administered Dianabol to his team starting in 1963."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metandienone

Wrong!

[pellius]

https://slate.com/culture/2005/02/the-doctor-who-brought-steroids-to-america.html

So, who’s responsible for bringing steroids into the sports world?

The godfather of steroids was a rough-and-tumble Maryland physician named John Bosley Ziegler. Ziegler practiced medicine in Olney, Md. and conducted chemistry research at a company called Ciba Pharmaceuticals. A big, fleshy former Marine who answered to the nickname “Montana Jack,” Ziegler loved to pump iron. During his long sessions at the gym, he befriended several bodybuilders associated with the York (Pa.) Barbell Club.

Upon returning to the United States, Ziegler started administering straight testosterone shots to selected York weightlifters. But these experiments proved unsatisfactory—strength gains were negligible, and the bodybuilders complained that the shots made them feel strange. Ziegler kept tinkering in an attempt to synthesize a substance with testosterone’s strength-building attributes but none of the pesky side effects. In 1958, Ciba Pharmaceuticals unleashed his creation: methandrostenolone, which the company marketed as Dianabol.

 


 

[Mr Anabolic]

The laughable part about bodybuilding is it never amounted to anything until steroids hit the market.

As soon as Dianabol hit the gyms  everybody had this "magic" routine to get bigger. They just failed to mention Mother's little helper.

This^^^

[OlympiaGym]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bosley_Ziegler

John Bosley Ziegler (ca. 1920–1983) — known as John Ziegler and Montana Jack — was the American physician who originally developed the anabolic steroid Methandrostenolone (Dianabol, DBOL) which was released in the USA in 1958 by Ciba.[1][2] He pioneered its athletic use as an aid to muscle growth by bodybuilders, administering it to U.S. weightlifting champion Bill March of the York Barbell Club in 1959 when he was the physician to the U.S. Weightlifting team.[3] It was banned by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under the Controlled Substances Act. In later life he was outspoken against its use in sport, saying "It is bad enough to have to deal with drug addicts, but now healthy athletes are putting themselves in the same category. It's a disgrace. Who plays sports for fun anymore?"[4] Ziegler suffered from heart disease, which he partially ascribed to his experimentation with steroids,[citation needed] and he died from heart failure in 1983.

Not only was Ziegler an MD with an off-the-charts IQ and work ethic he was a decorated Marine veteran of the Pacific Campaign. A great American and unsung hero of sport.

[pellius]

Wrong!

Exactly. To claim that Ziegler had "nothing" to do with the creation of dbol is just beyond ludicrous. How would he, or anybody else, even know a doctor named John Ziegler ever existed if it wasn't for his association with Dianabol?

[Mr Anabolic]

It's bewildering to me that anyone would reference and/or give any cred to Rich Piano and his training "methods".  The guy was fucking idiot.

[IroNat]

Exactly. To claim that Ziegler had "nothing" to do with the creation of dbol is just beyond ludicrous. How would he, or anybody else, even know a doctor named John Ziegler ever existed if it wasn't for his association with Dianabol?

Ziegler obtained D-bol from Ciba.  He didn't invent it. It takes a large pharmaceutical company to create a pharmaceutical like D-bol.

Ziegler became known as the source of D-bol because he supplied it to York lifters.

He was the first gym pusher.