RIP - Luke Sandoe - IFBB Pro

[mphgrove]

During our first telemedicine meeting after he got the initial labs he sent this exact study. It originally was pointed out to me during a Doctors appointment who has never worked with athletes let alone bodybuilders. Primarily celebrities, general clients and female models BUT she is a great doctor and insisted I do FULL labs in the middle of a full contest cycle. I told her she would freak out, she understood. Labs came back that my eGFR was low and Creatnine levels high that would put me in stage 3 renal failure.

Of course I freaked, for scared but also understood that athletes and bodybuilders MIGHT be interpreted differently from Doctors who work with athletes. She was in Beverly Hills, out of my insurance network and costing me $260 per visit 2x per week.

I’ll finish this later

I think the kidney stages are confusing and I don’t know how this fits in with what the doctor said:
Stages 4 and 5 are clearly BAD.
Stages 1 (AND 2)  fine. In my latest gfr result, the lab would not even post whether it was 1 or 2. They simply said Over 60, implying that measurements above 60 up to 90 and above fluctuate and are not really decisive
So that leaves Stage 3 (below 60) which is clearly borderline but NOT generally renal failure.

I am not a physician so please correct me if this is misleading. Still smart on your end not to push it.

[Coach is Back!]

During our first telemedicine meeting after he got the initial labs he sent this exact study. It originally was pointed out to me during a Doctors appointment who has never worked with athletes let alone bodybuilders. Primarily celebrities, general clients and female models BUT she is a great doctor and insisted I do FULL labs in the middle of a full contest cycle. I told her she would freak out, she understood. Labs came back that my eGFR was low and Creatnine levels high that would put me in stage 3 renal failure.

Of course I freaked, for scared but also understood that athletes and bodybuilders MIGHT be interpreted differently from Doctors who work with athletes. She was in Beverly Hills, out of my insurance network and costing me $260 per visit 2x per week.

I’ll finish this later

.....that being said was recommended to an internist and nephrologist in my area and insurance network. The internist was the former head Doc for UCLA football. Aside from working with athletes, he’s worked with both power lifters and bodybuilders. After taking my history, meds, supplements, BP, etc he was concerned but was sure this could be turned around. Took more labs, gave instructions (I’ve already been off of everything for 3 weeks at that point) labs came back a week later with huge improvements.

He knew what I was taking (names of the gear, doses) and wasn’t so concerned with that as he was with everything else. So set the gear aside, the biggest contributors were off season blowing up at my highest to 252, 2 years straight of protein intake of no less than 300 and as high as 450grms per day, because of severe tendonitis in one forearm and a biceps tendon that kept slipping out along with a grade 2 slap tear in the other shoulder, it was either 800mgs or 2 Aleve EVERYDAY I trained for more that 2 years, caffeine, energy drink and pre workout everyday I trained and even thought I took a BP med what I was doing was overwhelming the meds and I wasn’t taking my BP readings regularly.

Fast forward to today, I stay between 205-210 BP Is about down to normal and have been upgraded to a stage 1 that puts me out of range of CKD.

Nephrologist concurred and said because of muscle mass the original doc should have added about 15-20 on to that first original reading. Ultrasound of kidneys, bladder and prostate came back normal (Kidney atrophy would have indicated chronic CKD) with no atrophy. Prostate, as normal for my age was slightly enlarged but nothing to worry about

[njflex]

.....that being said was recommended to an internist and nephrologist in my area and insurance network. The internist was the former head Doc for UCLA football. Aside from working with athletes, he’s worked with both power lifters and bodybuilders. After taking my history, meds, supplements, BP, etc he was concerned but was sure this could be turned around. Took more labs, gave instructions (I’ve already been off of everything for 3 weeks at that point) labs came back a week later with huge improvements.

He knew what I was taking (names of the gear, doses) and wasn’t so concerned with that as he was with everything else. So set the gear aside, the biggest contributors were off season blowing up at my highest to 252, 2 years straight of protein intake of no less than 300 and as high as 450grms per day, because of severe tendonitis in one forearm and a biceps tendon that kept slipping out along with a grade 2 slap tear in the other shoulder, it was either 800mgs or 2 Aleve EVERYDAY I trained for more that 2 years, caffeine, energy drink and pre workout everyday I trained and even thought I took a BP med what I was doing was overwhelming the meds and I wasn’t taking my BP readings regularly.

Fast forward to today, I stay between 205-210 BP Is about down to normal and have been upgraded to a stage 1 that puts me out of range of CKD.

Nephrologist concurred and said because of muscle mass the original doc should have added about 15-20 on to that first original reading. Ultrasound of kidneys, bladder and prostate came back normal (Kidney atrophy would have indicated chronic CKD) with no atrophy. Prostate, as normal for my age was slightly enlarged but nothing to worry about

cool man,really in depth synopsis thanks for sharing,,we see your progress and size you added and forget what it takes to push and get there like all amateurs and pros its all or nothing.i think getting to a nice set lean muscular weight and good training will be on the better end of the spectrum in the long run and not be a tom prince'no pun intended'be well joe...to add i bet the otc supps could be worse over time 'pre workouts'uk jeff said the amino drinks he used could have given him stones or something of that nature.

[Taffin]

.....that being said was recommended to an internist and nephrologist in my area and insurance network. The internist was the former head Doc for UCLA football. Aside from working with athletes, he’s worked with both power lifters and bodybuilders. After taking my history, meds, supplements, BP, etc he was concerned but was sure this could be turned around. Took more labs, gave instructions (I’ve already been off of everything for 3 weeks at that point) labs came back a week later with huge improvements.

He knew what I was taking (names of the gear, doses) and wasn’t so concerned with that as he was with everything else. So set the gear aside, the biggest contributors were off season blowing up at my highest to 252, 2 years straight of protein intake of no less than 300 and as high as 450grms per day, because of severe tendonitis in one forearm and a biceps tendon that kept slipping out along with a grade 2 slap tear in the other shoulder, it was either 800mgs or 2 Aleve EVERYDAY I trained for more that 2 years, caffeine, energy drink and pre workout everyday I trained and even thought I took a BP med what I was doing was overwhelming the meds and I wasn’t taking my BP readings regularly.

Fast forward to today, I stay between 205-210 BP Is about down to normal and have been upgraded to a stage 1 that puts me out of range of CKD.

Nephrologist concurred and said because of muscle mass the original doc should have added about 15-20 on to that first original reading. Ultrasound of kidneys, bladder and prostate came back normal (Kidney atrophy would have indicated chronic CKD) with no atrophy. Prostate, as normal for my age was slightly enlarged but nothing to worry about

Coach man... you know better than to take something like that that is processed thru the liver continuously for so long... 

Not criticising, just observing

Also, with the creatinine levels, just dropping the protein and reducing exercise frequency would help to bring that down, so never mind the gear - so did you stop training too?

All the best
Taf

[njflex]

Coach man... you know better than to take something like that that is processed thru the liver continuously for so long... 

Not criticising, just observing

Also, with the creatinine levels, just dropping the protein and reducing exercise frequency would help to bring that down, so never mind the gear - so did you stop training too?

All the best
Taf

nice post..

[Coach is Back!]

cool man,really in depth synopsis thanks for sharing,,we see your progress and size you added and forget what it takes to push and get there like all amateurs and pros its all or nothing.i think getting to a nice set lean muscular weight and good training will be on the better end of the spectrum in the long run and not be a tom prince'no pun intended'be well joe...to add i bet the otc supps could be worse over time 'pre workouts'uk jeff said the amino drinks he used could have given him stones or something of that nature.

I got your IM, I’ll answer later today😎

[Coach is Back!]

Coach man... you know better than to take something like that that is processed thru the liver continuously for so long... 

Not criticising, just observing

Also, with the creatinine levels, just dropping the protein and reducing exercise frequency would help to bring that down, so never mind the gear - so did you stop training too?

All the best
Taf

Not criticizing at all, you’re right especially since I take no orals until the last 8 weeks before a show, none at all in the off season. I did reduced the weights and intensity since training does naturally produce higher creatnine levels. Mine at its highest was 2.21 it’s down to 1.6 now. Doc were more concerned with my eGFR than Creatnine.

[joswift]

cool man,really in depth synopsis thanks for sharing,,we see your progress and size you added and forget what it takes to push and get there like all amateurs and pros its all or nothing.i think getting to a nice set lean muscular weight and good training will be on the better end of the spectrum in the long run and not be a tom prince'no pun intended'be well joe...to add i bet the otc supps could be worse over time 'pre workouts'uk jeff said the amino drinks he used could have given him stones or something of that nature.

My stones were oxalate stones, but I think it was the BCAAs that aded to my woes, that and a certain supp that left me consistently dehydrated with night sweats

[Van_Bilderass]

Does training really affect creatinine acutely?
I know training raises liver enzymes, so steroid users should check GGT and not just AST and ALT. I don't know much about kidneys. Creatinine is higher naturally in people with high muscle mass, that's what my doc told me, but didn't say anything about training affecting it.

My creatinine was high a few weeks ago and I had a stomach bug at that time. I thought maybe being in a catabolic state raised creatinine. But they only said it can get high from dehydration. A week later creatinine was fine again.

[Taffin]

Not criticizing at all, you’re right especially since I take no orals until the last 8 weeks before a show, none at all in the off season. I did reduced the weights and intensity since training does naturally produce higher creatnine levels. Mine at its highest was 2.21 it’s down to 1.6 now. Doc were more concerned with my eGFR than Creatnine.

Sure - completely understand that - (low) eGFR for a drinker is one thing (bad news but reversible/manageable) but for a muscular low-fat guy keeping an eye on his diet?  Fugettaboutit 

[Taffin]

My stones were oxalate stones, but I think it was the BCAAs that aded to my woes, that and a certain supp that left me consistently dehydrated with night sweats

Tren?

 

[Coach is Back!]

I think the kidney stages are confusing and I don’t know how this fits in with what the doctor said:
Stages 4 and 5 are clearly BAD.
Stages 1 (AND 2)  fine. In my latest gfr result, the lab would not even post whether it was 1 or 2. They simply said Over 60, implying that measurements above 60 up to 90 and above fluctuate and are not really decisive
So that leaves Stage 3 (below 60) which is clearly borderline but NOT generally renal failure.

I am not a physician so please correct me if this is misleading. Still smart on your end not to push it.

So after the initial panic from the first doctor, I started doing a ton of research. Unfortunately aside from the study posted on here by Walter White that my nephrologist emailed me when we first met, there isn’t a whole lot of research that I’ve found even on PubMed about this as it pertains to bodybuilding and as my nephrologist said, there should be a subcategory for special population such as athletes, bodybuilding, etc. but there really isn’t.

But what I’ve found for the general pop isn’t too reassuring once you hit that stage 3-3b once you’re at that stage the only thing you can really do is slow the progression of CKD. In most cases (from what I understand) once you’re in the stage 4 phase then it’s time to start thinking about getting on a transplant list because the progression accelerates to stage 5 pretty quick (end stage renal failure) once that happens it could be a matter of being on dialysis until a kidney match is made.


Here is a great, informative video I found from UCLA Health

[njflex]

So after the initial panic from the first doctor, I started doing a ton of research. Unfortunately aside from the study posted on here by Walter White that my nephrologist emailed me when we first met, there isn’t a whole lot of research that I’ve found even on PubMed about this as it pertains to bodybuilding and as my nephrologist said, there should be a subcategory for special population such as athletes, bodybuilding, etc. but there really isn’t.

But what I’ve found for the general pop isn’t too reassuring once you hit that stage 3-3b once you’re at that stage the only thing you can really do is slow the progression of CKD. In most cases (from what I understand) once you’re in the stage 4 phase then it’s time to start thinking about getting on a transplant list because the progression accelerates to stage 5 pretty quick (end stage renal failure) once that happens it could be a matter of being on dialysis until a kidney match is made.


Here is a great, informative video I found from UCLA Health

Not to seem uneducated on this but either way isn’t a damaged or a possible reversed scenario the same whether your an athlete or not.i mean other than genetic conditions that progressed ,a kidney damaged from a sport or working hard overtime from a bodybuilding  standpoint the same?or is a bodybuilder  situation treated differently

[Coach is Back!]

Does training really affect creatinine acutely?
I know training raises liver enzymes, so steroid users should check GGT and not just AST and ALT. I don't know much about kidneys. Creatinine is higher naturally in people with high muscle mass, that's what my doc told me, but didn't say anything about training affecting it.

My creatinine was high a few weeks ago and I had a stomach bug at that time. I thought maybe being in a catabolic state raised creatinine. But they only said it can get high from dehydration. A week later creatinine was fine again.

Yes, it does acutely affect it which is why I had to cut back on the intensity of my training. Muscle mass affects creatnine levels whether healthy or not. In my case, as for right now, it might keep my creatnine levels elevated for longer than the average healthy person until at least my number have come down to normal range, but again, as I was told by my nephrologist, it’s the eGFR (Glomerular Filtration Rate) and he reminded me that the “e” in the GFR stands for “estimated” so the numbers might vary.

I was like you when looking at labs for my BB clients looking more at the GGT, now I’m looking more at Creatnine levels, BUN and eGFR. If Creatnine is out of range and if the eGFR is on the Middle to low end of the 60-89 range. I won’t proceed until they get checked out and cleared by their doctor

[njflex]

Yes, it does acutely affect it which is why I had to cut back on the intensity of my training. Muscle mass affects creatnine levels whether healthy or not. In my case, as for right now, it might keep my creatnine levels elevated for longer than the average healthy person until at least my number have come down to normal range, but again, as I was told by my nephrologist, it’s the eGFR (Glomerular Filtration Rate) and he reminded me that the “e” in the GFR stands for “estimated” so the numbers might vary.

I was like you when looking at labs for my BB clients looking more at the GGT, now I’m looking more at Creatnine levels, BUN and eGFR. If Creatnine is out of range and if the eGFR is on the Middle to low end of the 60-89 range. I won’t proceed until they get checked out and cleared by their doctor

I read this so it answered my post.i see where a bodybuilder is a different scenario than a normal person would be with same scenario or close to it.

[Coach is Back!]

I read this so it answered my post.i see where a bodybuilder is a different scenario than a normal person would be with same scenario or close to it.

Competitive Bodybuilding is an all round 24/7 job when done “right”. Athletes in general (take NFL athletes for example) train hard in the weight room and hard in the field but still have to deal with mostly orthopedic injuries. Their diets aren’t like ours and diets are more balanced (when in camp, when their not in camp it’s whatever) they’re in class for 2-3hrs In the morning, on the field for another 2-3hrs then back in class for another hour or two.

Bodybuilding is cardio, eat, eat , eat, train, eat, cardio, eat...sleep as you know the entire game In the off-season is hypertrophy, precontest it’s hypertrophy, retaining mass and dropping fat. Simple concept not simple to do.

[njflex]

Competitive Bodybuilding is an all round 24/7 job when done “right”. Athletes in general (take NFL athletes for example) train hard in the weight room and hard in the field but still have to deal with mostly orthopedic injuries. Their diets aren’t like ours and diets are more balanced (when in camp, when their not in camp it’s whatever) they’re in class for 2-3hrs In the morning, on the field for another 2-3hrs then back in class for another hour or two.

Bodybuilding is cardio, eat, eat , eat, train, eat, cardio, eat...sleep as you know the entire game In the off-season is hypertrophy, precontest it’s hypertrophy, retaining mass and dropping fat. Simple concept not simple to do.

Qft.

[titusisback]

.....that being said was recommended to an internist and nephrologist in my area and insurance network. The internist was the former head Doc for UCLA football. Aside from working with athletes, he’s worked with both power lifters and bodybuilders. After taking my history, meds, supplements, BP, etc he was concerned but was sure this could be turned around. Took more labs, gave instructions (I’ve already been off of everything for 3 weeks at that point) labs came back a week later with huge improvements.

He knew what I was taking (names of the gear, doses) and wasn’t so concerned with that as he was with everything else. So set the gear aside, the biggest contributors were off season blowing up at my highest to 252, 2 years straight of protein intake of no less than 300 and as high as 450grms per day, because of severe tendonitis in one forearm and a biceps tendon that kept slipping out along with a grade 2 slap tear in the other shoulder, it was either 800mgs or 2 Aleve EVERYDAY I trained for more that 2 years, caffeine, energy drink and pre workout everyday I trained and even thought I took a BP med what I was doing was overwhelming the meds and I wasn’t taking my BP readings regularly.

Fast forward to today, I stay between 205-210 BP Is about down to normal and have been upgraded to a stage 1 that puts me out of range of CKD.

Nephrologist concurred and said because of muscle mass the original doc should have added about 15-20 on to that first original reading. Ultrasound of kidneys, bladder and prostate came back normal (Kidney atrophy would have indicated chronic CKD) with no atrophy. Prostate, as normal for my age was slightly enlarged but nothing to worry about

Holy shit you're stupid, you're doing this for what? Plastic trophy? People looking at you posing in thongs and clapping for 2 seconds (if lucky)?

In other words, I fully approve what you're doing - it's awesome

[Coach is Back!]

Holy shit you're stupid, you're doing this for what? Plastic trophy? People looking at you posing in thongs and clapping for 2 seconds (if lucky)?

In other words, I fully approve what you're doing - it's awesome

I’ll take that hit. I have a good genetics that run in both my moms and dads sides. No heart diseases, no cancers. I’ll be 58 in 5 days and thankful the docs are optimistic I’ll make a full recovery as long as my BP is under control. It was the high BP that really caused the injury (“injury“ is a real diagnosis apparently)

[Van_Bilderass]

Yes, it does acutely affect it which is why I had to cut back on the intensity of my training. Muscle mass affects creatnine levels whether healthy or not. In my case, as for right now, it might keep my creatnine levels elevated for longer than the average healthy person until at least my number have come down to normal range, but again, as I was told by my nephrologist, it’s the eGFR (Glomerular Filtration Rate) and he reminded me that the “e” in the GFR stands for “estimated” so the numbers might vary.

I was like you when looking at labs for my BB clients looking more at the GGT, now I’m looking more at Creatnine levels, BUN and eGFR. If Creatnine is out of range and if the eGFR is on the Middle to low end of the 60-89 range. I won’t proceed until they get checked out and cleared by their doctor

The way I understand it you need a 24 hour pisstest for a "real" creatinine number, the eGFR is therefore an estimate of a snapshot value.

I don't know if creatinine itself is toxic, haven't got a good answer for that. Creatine supps can raise creatinine but there is little evidence that it's bad for the kidneys. Some studies of creatine supps in CKD says it's probably safe.

[kreator]

My stones were oxalate stones, but I think it was the BCAAs that aded to my woes, that and a certain supp that left me consistently dehydrated with night sweats

Plant foods like spinnach are really high in oxalates, doubt BCAAs were the cause of your problems

[Taffin]

The way I understand it you need a 24 hour pisstest for a "real" creatinine number, the eGFR is therefore an estimate of a snapshot value.

I don't know if creatinine itself is toxic, haven't got a good answer for that. Creatine supps can raise creatinine but there is little evidence that it's bad for the kidneys. Some studies of creatine supps in CKD says it's probably safe.

I am no expert... but as I understand it, creatinine levels aren't toxic in and of themselves, they just indicate either:

1.  An increased amount of muscle 'damage' (the good sort that causes DOMS or the bad sort caused by injury/surgery)

or

2.  A  supra-nominal level of protein intake

or

3.  A combination of both enhanced by anabolics

[Coach is Back!]

I am no expert... but as I understand it, creatinine levels aren't toxic in and of themselves, they just indicate either:

1.  An increased amount of muscle 'damage' (the good sort that causes DOMS or the bad sort caused by injury/surgery)

or

2.  A  supra-nominal level of protein intake

or

3.  A combination of both enhanced by anabolics

Creatnine itself is a waste product thatS in the blood that filters through the kidneys. Although it’s not a way to gauge kidney function, if the levels are too high and GFR is low that usually means waste (toxins) are not filtering as they should. I’ve drastically had to cut my protein from right around a normal intake of 300-350 to half of that or less.

[joswift]

Plant foods like spinnach are really high in oxalates, doubt BCAAs were the cause of your problems

I dont eat plants very much, I didnt back then and I haven't eaten any plants since Xmas last year
Dont eat fruit either, just meat eggs and dairy

[Humble Narcissist]

I dont eat plants very much, I didnt back then and I haven't eaten any plants since Xmas last year
Dont eat fruit either, just meat eggs and dairy

Plant food is what food eats.