Ahmaud Arbery - Discussion

[Earl1972]

You don't hurt anybody simply because you don't have the power and authority to do so. By your own admission, you would murder people that you deem, based on your own preferences and prejudices, unfit to live. You don't seem to recognize that base on that criterion that can easily be turned against you.

Like, everybody on this planet, including you (except you simply lie about the purity of your character which is in itself a vice), I am a very flawed person. I've done things that were wrong and I've done things that I regret. "In my eyes" you are no angel but just like a lot of people you think that you are better than you really are. Just the fact that you would like to murder people because, as in the case of Ahmaud, you just don't like the way he looks, the way he speaks, that he parks on the side of the road, that he stole a TV, and that he was, presumably (not proven) casing out a neighborhood.

People, especially boys when they are in their teens, get into trouble, most turn their lives around. I gave a brief bio on Steve McQueen in the Don Johnson thread. If it was up to you, you would have murdered him because he was a punk and a thief in his teens. Then we would have never had that car chase scene in "Bullitt". Imagine what kind of world we would have had without that?

By all accounts, Ahmaud was a punk. But he didn't deserve to get killed.

where did i say i would murder anybody?  i said i'm glad he's dead, doesn't mean i would want to pull the trigger

E

[Primemuscle]

I love these posts that make it seem like a citizen's arrest - something legal in every single state in the USA, and every single province and territory in Canada, as well as most other civilized nations of the world.  A citizen's right is not only extraordinarily common - it is extremely necessary.

How do you suppose Wal-Mart security guards are able to legally hold shoplifters until the police arrive and properly charge them?

Some of the comments on here talking purporting citizen's arrest to be some difficult or rarely used area of law is simply not the case.  It is hugely practiced, and when they unofficially stopped practicing it in Thunder Bay around two years ago because of "that's racist!!!11", groups of Indigenous young males would go into the LCBO [Liquor Control Board of Ontario - Canada's liquor stores where the bottle of ALBERTA Premium Whisky that you American Getbiggers pay $9 for in the USA, WHICH INCLUDES THE COST OF IMPORTING IT ACROSS A NATIONAL BORDER INTO YOUR SOCIETY, costs US CANADIAN GETBIGGERS UNDER GLORIOUS SOCIALISM $54 for the SAME BOTTLE, which is produced domestically, only a few provinces own the highway.

The Indigenous young males would walk in together and just steal a 1.75L bottle each and just leave, LOL.  Because preventing an Indigenous person in Canada from committing a crime is "racist colonialism", blah, blah, blah:

https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/thunder-bay-police-charge-shoppers-drug-mart-security-guard-with-assault/

LOL.

And back to those prices, LOL!!!

But hey - we may pay more for ONE 60-oz bottle of 40% spirits than Americans pay for SIX of the same bottle [literally, at the duty-free border shoppe in Grande Portage, MN, I would pay $10 per bottle of Alberta Premium [Canadian] Whisky, but get $1 off when I buy six bottles [Manager's Special], making the cost $54 for six bottles - when ONE such bottle costs $62.40 IN CANADA, WHERE THE SPECIFIC ALCOHOL IN QUESTION IS PRODUCED, LOL!!!

AH, SOCIALISM.  And the dummies here in Canada who think paying DOUBLE for everything is somehow a good deal because we get "free" government services that we could easily pay for if so much of our money wasn't taxed, and spent on overpriced/inflated Canadian products.

LOL @ this [Canada]:

https://www.lcbo.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/en/lcbo/alberta-premium-whisky-%28pet%29-54213#.XsjhkDpKjIU

Meanwhile in the more [for now] capitalist USA, you pay $10 for the same bottle, but you get $1 off per bottle when you buy six, making 6x bottles of 1.75L Alberta Premium Whisky in the USA cost Americans $8.40 LESS than ONE bottle costs Canadians:

http://www.rydensborderstore.com/duty-free.html

LOL!!!!!!!!!! @ socialism.

Anyone who makes a citizen's arrest can find themselves facing possible lawsuits or criminal charges – such as charges of false imprisonment, unlawful restraint, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest – if the wrong person is apprehended or a suspect's civil rights are violated.

[pellius]

where did i say i would murder anybody?  i said i'm glad he's dead, doesn't mean i would want to pull the trigger

E

Remember when I asked you this?

So, you believe that anyone you think, based on your own personal preferences and bias, that thugs, punks, undesirables, or trouble makers regardless if they have committed a capital crime should be executed?

You said you would be fine with that. If you want people put to death based on your own personal preferences and bias but don't have the guts to do it yourself doesn't relieve you of responsibility. Do you think Pol Pot killed 2/3 of his own people by himself?

[pellius]

Anyone who makes a citizen's arrest can find themselves facing possible lawsuits or criminal charges – such as charges of false imprisonment, unlawful restraint, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest – if the wrong person is apprehended or a suspect's civil rights are violated.

And the claim that citizens arrests are very common is just laughable. For some inexplicable reason I have a soft spot for Matt but, jeez, he's really out there.

[Earl1972]

Remember when I asked you this?

You said you would be fine with that. If you want people put to death based on your own personal preferences and bias but don't have the guts to do it yourself doesn't relieve you of responsibility. Do you think Pol Pot killed 2/3 of his own people by himself?

i would be fine in the sense that i wouldn't cry or lose any sleep over it, doesn't mean i would kill them myself if i could get away with it whether you think it is lacking guts or whatever

i don't have the responsibility to mourn the loss of those that act like parasites, that is why i would be fine

E

[pellius]

i would be fine in the sense that i wouldn't cry or lose any sleep over it, doesn't mean i would kill them myself if i could get away with it whether you think it is lacking guts or whatever

i don't have the responsibility to mourn the loss of those that act like parasites, that is why i would be fine

E

Again, that was my point. You have no problem having others kill based on your own personal preferences and prejudices but leave the dirty work to others. I get it.

[Earl1972]

Again, that was my point. You have no problem having others kill based on your own personal preferences and prejudices but leave the dirty work to others. I get it.

so i'm a pussy because i wouldn't kill them myself, is that what you are saying?

i have to care about the lives of everybody that are nothing but a nuisance and would hurt me if they thought it was to their benefit?

i had a coworker years ago that drowned while on vacation, i hated his guts and work was a lot more peaceful with him being gone so no i didn't mourn his death, should i have drowned him myself to have your respect?

E

[pellius]

so i'm a pussy because i wouldn't kill them myself, is that what you are saying?

i have to care about the lives of everybody that are nothing but a nuisance and would hurt me if they thought it was to their benefit?

i had a coworker years ago that drowned while on vacation, i hated his guts and work was a lot more peaceful with him being gone so no i didn't mourn his death, should i have drowned him myself to have your respect?

E

You don't see the difference in someone drowning in an accident and someone holding his head underwater until he drowns to death? Would you have felt the same way that instead of drowning on vacation that he was murdered instead?

[Earl1972]

You don't see the difference in someone drowning in an accident and someone holding his head underwater until he drowns to death? Would you have felt the same way that instead of drowning on vacation that he was murdered instead?

i actually think him dying in an accident is more tragic, if somebody murdered him i probably would've thought he finally pissed off the wrong person haha

E

[pellius]

i actually think him dying in an accident is more tragic, if somebody murdered him i probably would've thought he finally pissed off the wrong person haha

E

Yes, "Ha, ha."

Just to be clear, there is no argument here. Nothing about convincing anybody about who is right or wrong on how they feel. It's about clarity. People say things without realizing the implications. The world is full of people who nonchalantly dismiss the worth and lives of others. Just on this board alone how many people claim there are too many people in the world and its population needs to be culled. Of course, they never include themselves. If you lived in Cambodia during the seventies you would have been put to death for being educated and not having callouses on your hands. What's good for the goose..., right? Of course, even the worse monsters in history never thought they were evil people and woke up every morning thinking of ways to make life more miserable and cruel for others. They all thought they were doing things for the best and can pass judgment on who deserves to live and who deserves to die. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, eh? They pat themselves on that back every day saying how good they are and how proud their parents must be.

Yes, you have clarified your position. "Haha," indeed.

[ThisisOverload]

And the claim that citizens arrests are very common is just laughable.

It doesn't just apply to a citizen personally arresting someone physically.  If you see a crime and call the cops, then proceed to follow to criminal until the cops arrive; it's the same thing.

I only know this because I saw a guy steal this kids bike at Walgreens and I called the cops and followed him until they arrived.  I had to sign some stupid form because it was considered a citizens arrest, well at least in the state I live in.

-

This guy did not deserve to die, they should have followed him and waited for the cops.  It's sad that people think it's ok to kill others based on perception.  These guys will be charged.  I live in a shit part of town and carry almost daily, I would never dream of acting like this.

[Megalodon]

Will Amy Cooper steal the spotlight?

Once the commercial media gives the go ahead, you will be allowed to discuss.

[pellius]

It doesn't just apply to a citizen personally arresting someone physically.  If you see a crime and call the cops, then proceed to follow to criminal until the cops arrive; it's the same thing.

I only know this because I saw a guy steal this kids bike at Walgreens and I called the cops and followed him until they arrived.  I had to sign some stupid form because it was considered a citizens arrest, well at least in the state I live in.

-

This guy did not deserve to die, they should have followed him and waited for the cops.  It's sad that people think it's ok to kill others based on perception.  These guys will be charged.  I live in a shit part of town and carry almost daily, I would never dream of acting like this.

I've called cops countless times reporting suspicious activity. I called the cops last week on a homeless bum walking down the street screaming, swearing, and threatening people. I followed him until the cops came and when I saw the police car I pointed to where the guy was. It ended there for me. I think most people consider actually stopping someone as a citizen arrest and not just reporting him.

Carrying, and knowing the consequences of getting involved and using it, even if you are clearly doing what is right and legal, shows good sense. People think that if someone is charging at you with a knife and you shoot him dead that it will end there. You will be found innocent but there will be a cost to be paid in the form of time spent and legal fees. Plus, it's now on your record and if it happens again, even if you are again doing what is right and legal, thing will be a lot tougher as it will be argued that you are showing a pattern of using your firearm.

BTW, I am a firearms enthusiast, what do you carry and what do you load it with? I know a lot of hardcore guys look down on the 9mm but it's a good and easy round to shoot (which is important in a high stress situation) and the advances in the lethality with the high-velocity loads and being easy to double stack it for more rounds without increasing the size much.

[ThisisOverload]

I've called cops countless times reporting suspicious activity. I called the cops last week on a homeless bum walking down the street screaming, swearing, and threatening people. I followed him until the cops came and when I saw the police car I pointed to where the guy was. It ended there for me. I think most people consider actually stopping someone as a citizen arrest and not just reporting him.

Carrying, and knowing the consequences of getting involved and using it, even if you are clearly doing what is right and legal, shows good sense. People think that if someone is charging at you with a knife and you shoot him dead that it will end there. You will be found innocent but there will be a cost to be paid in the form of time spent and legal fees. Plus, it's now on your record and if it happens again, even if you are again doing what is right and legal, thing will be a lot tougher as it will be argued that you are showing a pattern of using your firearm.

BTW, I am a firearms enthusiast, what do you carry and what do you load it with? I know a lot of hardcore guys look down on the 9mm but it's a good and easy round to shoot (which is important in a high stress situation) and the advances in the lethality with the high-velocity loads and being easy to double stack it for more rounds without increasing the size much.

I agree on all points!  Even in self defense, if you shoot and kill someone be prepared for years of torment in court and massive legal fees.  It simply is not worth it unless you absolutely have no choice.  These guys are looking at 6 figure legal fees and years of court dates; was it really worth it to play police man?  Plus being such a high profile case, their lives are over from a certain perspective.  This could have easily been avoided.

I grew up in Texas, so I'm a bit of a gun nut myself.  My daily concealed choices are my favorite Glock 43 or Sig P365.  Typically loaded with Federal Personal Defense HST 9mm rounds; I'm not playing around.  I'd never want to be in a situation to even pull my weapon, but I've seen crazy things growing up in bad parts of town and traveling all over the country for work that make me a bit uneasy.  I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

[pellius]

I agree on all points!  Even in self defense, if you shoot and kill someone be prepared for years of torment in court and massive legal fees.  It simply is not worth it unless you absolutely have no choice.  These guys are looking at 6 figure legal fees and years of court dates; was it really worth it to play police man?  Plus being such a high profile case, their lives are over from a certain perspective.  This could have easily been avoided.

I grew up in Texas, so I'm a bit of a gun nut myself.  My daily concealed choices are my favorite Glock 43 or Sig P365.  Typically loaded with Federal Personal Defense HST 9mm rounds; I'm not playing around.  I'd never want to be in a situation to even pull my weapon, but I've seen crazy things growing up in bad parts of town and traveling all over the country for work that make me a bit uneasy.  I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

Ah, we are kindred spirits. I also carry a Glock 43 and sometimes my Glock 19
which is 25 years old with thousands of rounds through it and still going strong. I'm also a big fan of Sig Sauer but prefer Glock for carry as it's lighter and fits my hand like a glove. I use Corbon's 9mm 115+P JHP.

[ThisisOverload]

Ah, we are kindred spirits. I also carry a Glock 43 and sometimes my Glock 19
which is 25 years old with thousands of rounds through it and still going strong. I'm also a big fan of Sig Sauer but prefer Glock for carry as it's lighter and fits my hand like a glove. I use Corbon's 9mm 115+P JHP.

Great choices!  My brother has a G19, amazing gun.  Glocks are great guns, I've shot about everything and still prefer them.

[Twaddle]

Ah, we are kindred spirits. I also carry a Glock 43 and sometimes my Glock 19
which is 25 years old with thousands of rounds through it and still going strong. I'm also a big fan of Sig Sauer but prefer Glock for carry as it's lighter and fits my hand like a glove. I use Corbon's 9mm 115+P JHP.

Pellius,

Serious question.  Are you legally allowed to own/carry firearms, with your record?  If not, why would you risk it?  Isn't Hawaii fairly safe? 

Why not carry a knife or pepper spray, instead?   

[The Scott]

Ah, we are kindred spirits. I also carry a Glock 43 and sometimes my Glock 19
which is 25 years old with thousands of rounds through it and still going strong. I'm also a big fan of Sig Sauer but prefer Glock for carry as it's lighter and fits my hand like a glove. I use Corbon's 9mm 115+P JHP.

I have to admit that I don't own or even know how to use a gun.  I know that two of my brothers and their wives and one nephew are gun owners and enthusiasts but I don't think I'm smart enough in that stuff to ever own one. 

Needless to say they agree with that sentiment because they have taken me to a range place to learn to shoot but it hurts my ears even with those headphones on and the loudness scares me too.  I know, what pussy, LOL!  yup!

[pellius]

Pellius,

Serious question.  Are you legally allowed to own/carry firearms, with your record?  If not, why would you risk it?  Isn't Hawaii fairly safe? 

Why not carry a knife or pepper spray, instead?   

The only time I'd ever pull and use a gun is if my life was in grave danger. I know the consequences of using a firearm even if it was overwhelming justified, i.e., life and death. In such a case I would protect my life and the life of an innocent regardless of the laws of the State. Laws mean nothing when you're dead.

Fortunately, in maybe 98% of the time just brandishing a firearm will be enough to protect you and I have done just that several times.

I do also carry a Cold Steel lockback four inch Tanto. I don't consider pepper spray a good self defense option.

I don't know what you mean by "with my record".

[Twaddle]

The only time I'd ever pull and use a gun is if my life was in grave danger. I know the consequences of using a firearm even if it was overwhelming justified, i.e., life and death. In such a case I would protect my life and the life of an innocent regardless of the laws of the State. Laws mean nothing when you're dead.

Fortunately, in maybe 98% of the time just brandishing a firearm will be enough to protect you and I have done just that several times.

I do also carry a Cold Steel lockback four inch Tanto. I don't consider pepper spray a good self defense option.

I don't know what you mean by "with my record".

I was referring to your legal troubles.  It's been discussed on the board in the past.  I'm pretty sure you've even talked about it, on the board.   

[Body-Buildah]

i bought a gun 30 years ago. a little 25 Bryco, shot it once, put it in my draw, still sits there to this day.
never fired it again
no need
no chocolates where I live in VT historically.

might need to dig it out now with the refugees coming around though.

[Primemuscle]

Don't own a gun. -Never have given it much thought. In the past 75 years, there has never been any occasion when I felt my life was in danger to the point where I would need a gun. Not saying it couldn't happen, but the likelihood of that is fairly remote. I've also never carried a knife other than the miniature Swiss army knife on my key chain. I've had to throw a couple of them away at the airport because I forgot to remove them ahead of time.

Negative thoughts invite negative events, IMO. If I carried a weapon, it would be to me like a constant reminder of the possibility of something bad happening.

Forty years ago, some kids (or small people) broke into the house through a tiny basement window. They were in the house long enough to gather up a few things to steal. Apparently I arrived home before they'd completed their mission and scared them off. They left what they planned to steal in the middle of the kitchen floor. A B&W TV, a sewing machine and a guitar.  I secured the basement window and bought a Great Dane from a breeder. She didn't have a mean or aggressive bone in her over-sized body. She would stand on her hind legs and look over the top of a 5' fence that I installed to keep her safe and contained. Nobody ever broke into our house again. Some people even crossed the street when walking by our house.   

[Body-Buildah]

Don't own a gun. -Never have given it much thought. In the past 75 years, there has never been any occasion when I felt my life was in danger to the point where I would need a gun. Not saying it couldn't happen, but the likelihood of that is fairly remote. I've also never carried a knife other than the miniature Swiss army knife on my key chain. I've had to throw a couple of them away at the airport because I forgot to remove them ahead of time.

Negative thoughts invite negative events, IMO. If I carried a weapon, it would be to me like a constant reminder of the possibility of something bad happening.

Forty years ago, some kids (or small people) broke into the house through a tiny basement window. They were in the house long enough to gather up a few things to steal. Apparently I arrived home before they'd completed their mission and scared them off. They left what they planned to steal in the middle of the kitchen floor. A B&W TV, a sewing machine and a guitar.  I secured the basement window and bought a Great Dane from a breeder. She didn't have a mean or aggressive bone in her over-sized body. She would stand on her hind legs and look over the top of a 5' fence that I installed to keep her safe and contained. Nobody ever broke into our house again. Some people even crossed the street when walking by our house.   

you live in a place where its not needed, many do not have that luxury
people are constantly defending their homes from home invaders, though the news likes to ignore it

[The Scott]

Don't own a gun. -Never have given it much thought. In the past 75 years, there has never been any occasion when I felt my life was in danger to the point where I would need a gun. Not saying it couldn't happen, but the likelihood of that is fairly remote. I've also never carried a knife other than the miniature Swiss army knife on my key chain. I've had to throw a couple of them away at the airport because I forgot to remove them ahead of time.

Negative thoughts invite negative events, IMO. If I carried a weapon, it would be to me like a constant reminder of the possibility of something bad happening.

Forty years ago, some kids (or small people) broke into the house through a tiny basement window. They were in the house long enough to gather up a few things to steal. Apparently I arrived home before they'd completed their mission and scared them off. They left what they planned to steal in the middle of the kitchen floor. A B&W TV, a sewing machine and a guitar.  I secured the basement window and bought a Great Dane from a breeder. She didn't have a mean or aggressive bone in her over-sized body. She would stand on her hind legs and look over the top of a 5' fence that I installed to keep her safe and contained. Nobody ever broke into our house again. Some people even crossed the street when walking by our house.   

I agree with you, sir.  A dog is great!  We have had a few Dobermans as pets, one of which was what is often called (albeit incorrectly) a "Warlock" Doberman.  He was Schutzhund.  I once got a flattop haircut (from shoulder length!) and when I went to come in via a fence gate, our Dobie came at me and had my wrist in her teeth until she recognized me.

We no longer have Dobies but I think about getting a pair of them again but I doubt that will happen. I could not walk them like they would need because of my physical problem.  I like dogs. As for cats, a Maine Coone (by the belly of the buddha, I had to spell it with an "e" otherwise it came out as "guy"..It's a CAT!) would be great.  They're like a dog in some ways and can get quite large and enjoy walks on a leash.   I've had friends that have them and they would be soooo cool to own along with Dobies.  I'm rambling...sorry.  Back on topic.

It is unfortunate that this young man was killed.  Yes, I doubt he was going to be much of an asset to society but if we are honest, we really don't know.  But we do know that he was a verified asshole with a history of being a real turd.  We also know there's no time travel because if there were, I would've fixed a ton of shit by now.   

[Primemuscle]

you live in a place where its not needed, many do not have that luxury
people are constantly defending their homes from home invaders, though the news likes to ignore it

At the time that this attempted robbery happened we lived in what was then considered Portland's black ghetto. Also, despite having a very attentive police department in my current location, there are burglaries. One noteworthy case happened a few years ago about 1/4 mile from my house. Gertrude Boyle, former Chair and owner of Columbia Sportwear was kidnapped and held prisoner in her own garage.

If a thief is looking for a good mark, they are going to choose a neighborhood where they are most likely to get a good haul. It may not be the kind of spur of the moment theft you'd find elsewhere, but one which is more carefully plotted and ultimately more dangerous to the victim.

gert boyle robbery columbia sportswear
Author: KGW Staff
Published: 4:55 AM PDT October 30, 2013
Updated: 4:55 AM PDT October 30, 2013
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PORTLAND, Ore. -- Last week's attack on Columbia Sportswear's Gert Boyle included a plan to kidnap her and hold her for ransom,according to probable cause documents obtained by KGWNewsChannel 8.

Jose Luis Arevalo told investigators that he drove his van to Gert Boyle s house for the purpose of kidnapping her in exchange for $20,000 as a share.

The information came as part of an indcitment filed Tuesday against the three defendents and obtained exclusively by KGW.

Court documents show the suspects planned with the purpose of compelling Gertrude Boyle and or her family and/or her company to pay or deliver money for property as ransom.

The court documents stated that Ramon Alberto Midence and Nestor Gabriel Caballero Gutierrez started plotting the kidnap and ransom scheme as early as January.

The indicment listed eight witnesses testified before the grand jury, including Boyle, police and a relative of one of the suspects.


Arevalo and Midence were arrested Monday in connection with the home invasion robbery of former Columbia Sportswear CEO Gert Boyle. They face burglary, robbery and kidnapping charges.

In documents obtained by KGW, Midence admitted plotting the crime in advance with 39-year-old Caballero Gutierrez, and dropping him off at Boyle's house that night.

Caballero Gutierrez is charged with kidnapping, assault, conspiracy, solicitation, coercion, robbery and burglary.

West Linn police saidCaballero Gutierrez approached Boyle in her driveway and forced his way into her home while holding her at gun-point. He then reportedly tied Boyle up before fleeing the scene last Wednesday night. Boyle was able to set off an alarm that alerted police.

Caballero Gutierrez confesses

In probable cause documents, detectives wrote that Caballero Gutierrez confessed to the burglary and had the victim's jewelry.

Caballero Gutierrez appeared in court on charges of kidnapping, robbery and burglaryFriday. He was also being detained on a no bail immigration hold.

According to friends of the suspects and police reports, all three appeared to be broke, desperate, and looking for money.

This wasn't a random thing at all, this wasn't a guy in the neighborhood looking for big houses, said Sgt. Neil Hennelly of the West Linn police department. He was specifically going after Gert Boyle.

Suspect's home foreclosed

Caballero Gutierrez lives in a quiet Beaverton neighborhood.

On Friday, KGW learned that Caballero Gutierrez was forced out of his home in Sherwood after defaulting on his loan. Records show his $315,000 loan was foreclosed in December of 2009.

One neighbor told KGW he was surprised to learn of the charges.

We've known him for quite a while, he's always been such a great.. seemed like a hard worker, really great guy, said Tom Tucker.

Caballero Gutierrez doesn't have a criminal history.

It's sad. I don't know what to say, why that happened, said his brother-in-law Patrick Darang. Just probably stress, I don't know. Money problems . . . who knows what it is.

State records showed that until about a year ago, Caballero Gutierrez ran Creativa Advertising Agency out of a Southwest Portland office. The agency specialized in marketing to Hispanic clients.

He had a nice office. He hustled quite a bit and was always on the move, and he looked like he was doing fine, a man who worked in the same office building said.

The man, who asked not to be identified, said Caballero Gutierrez' office abruptly closed about a year ago. He added, a number of people would come by looking for bills that had not been taken care of.

I was asking him if he had any more work and he said that the situation was just really bad, said Mike Iguarta, who worked for him and last spoke with him about four months ago.

Boyle received only minor injuries in the attack, but was still feeling well enough to kid the West Linn chief of police about his outerwear choice when he showed up at her door wearing a North Face jacket.

MORE: Boyle thwarts robber, presses panic button

KGWReporter Kyle Iboshi contributed to this report