Barbell Rows

[pumpster]

I agree with the guy above who says that BB rows don't hit the lats that well: I did BB rows for years before concluding that. As mentioned, it's too easy to cheat, which removes the positive effects. That's aside from the problems some people have involving the lower back-it's not necessarily a lack of strength but rather a structural problem; some just don't have the build to take that direct downwards pressure. As far as back angle, go with whatever's comfortable, there are no rules.

There are other free-weight alternatives such as T-bars & one-arm rows that from my experience work the lats more intensely, are easier on the lower back; because of the angle of T-bars, I don't find there's the same direct downwards pressure on the lower back, and there are also considerable advantages in grip variations. On one-arms you can take pressure off the back by bracing with the other arm, which also prevents cheating, and the grip can be varied by turning the wrist in any direction.

The only versions of BB rows that I've found helpful are more isolated-bracing your head against something to remove cheating (being careful not to injure the neck in the process), or BB rows done lying face down on a bench.

BB rows are considered by some one of the fundamentals by some, but I'm talking about effectiveness vs. following what's supposed to work.

[gtbro1]

I agree with pumpster's statement about various angles for lats...I love doing bbrows...my all time favorite exercise...I have tried various angles and grips...and I think that for ME..I get a better feel in the lats if I stand a bit more verticle than a textbook row...maybe 45 degrees, and pull up to my lower ribcage,not my chest,with both overhand and underhand grips. I alternate grips with each workout..I feel the contraction better with an overhand grip,but can use a little more weight with the underhand grip.Both ways always make my lats sore the next day...so I know I am hitting the back and not just using arm power..

[Sculpter]

I noticed Shinobi mentions that he pulls the bar to his lower chest.If you can feel that in the lats great for you but for bent over rows you're supposed to pull the bar into your belly area.I pull to the belly button region myself.Pulling to the chest area involves the rear delts more.

[Cavalier22]

for some reason doing tbar rows for me does not work my back as much as when i do barbell rows.  although DB rows are the best IMO

[AMNIMAL]

I suggest sticking with

Deadlifts,rotate on a 3week schedule: 1.regular deadlifts 2.deep deadlifts(standing on a plate or 2) 3.rack deads
DUMBBELL ROWS
Chins, shoulder width

YIP
Zack

Over time or as you get stronger will deads make your waist get bigger or is that BS? I love deads but can't afford for my waist to grow. Also I have read different theories on pull ups. The wider you go the more travel your limiting which could cause partial back development. Is shoulder width the best route to go?

[pumpster]

On any lat exercise, experiment with grip & grip width. My own experience medium and closer grip are better.

I wouldn't worry about deads effecting your waist; you can always keep the reps higher which will also reduce the risk of injury.

[Sculpter]

I have to say I totally agree w/pumpster on what he mentioned there.In my experience medium & close grips work my lats better than the wide grip version. However I still do both versions (cycling them).
I have also noticed in my own training that using a thumbless grip while training back takes the biceps out of the movement & more directly stresses the lats themselves leaving them to do the work.

[haider]

Here is what is said to be the best way to do a barbell row (Pendaly rows)
"Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.

This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.

The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way. "

[MaTrlx]

Another method that works for me on the barbell rows would be to use a thumbless grip, with the knuckles pointing down directly onto the floor.

From there, row it up to your upper abdominal area and touch it, squeezing the lats at the same time, all the while maintaining the pointing of knuckles down to the floor. It works for me and it may for you too.

[gtbro1]

Another method that works for me on the barbell rows would be to use a thumbless grip, with the knuckles pointing down directly onto the floor.

From there, row it up to your upper abdominal area and touch it, squeezing the lats at the same time, all the while maintaining the pointing of knuckles down to the floor. It works for me and it may for you too.

I agree....even on pull ups I use a thumbless grip.I don't know why,maybe it is just mental,but for me this grip helps me to concentrate on my back and not my arms.Once I grab the bar with a full grip it seems like I want to use my biceps and forearms more.

[pumpster]

Thumbless grip seems to help, hard to say why: seems to take the emphasis off the hands (bis/tris) and put it on elbows (lats). Thumbless w/ straps works.

[!@#$%]

Some excercises are compound movements and you can't completely isolate with them. They are meant for mass building and I don't think you should obsess with isolating with them. I think you should take your mind out of your muscle and into lifting as much as you can for these movements.

With BB rows, it is hard not to pivot a little because when the bar hits your body, the force of it will cause your body to move a little, unless you are doing really slow reps. It seems better to me to ignore that stuff and go heavy. On most excercises though the mind should be in the muscle and form should be strict. This is just my opinion, but most of the pros I've seen will get a little sloppy on compound movements.

Most of the training protocols stuck to the top of this forum and in other places suggest heavy lifting with few movements. The extreme of this would be Coleman who always lifts heavy and sloppy. Lee Haney used to preach all that mind in the muscle with strict form stuff and he was a lot smaller than Coleman.

[pumpster]

One of those wildly unsupported theories that is perpetrated. Go heavier on most exercises and results follow, sometimes faster with isolations, actually.

Basically to get the best mind-muscle connection & development from compounds, subtle variations are used to make them a little more like isolations and less like typical compounds that are great for sports applications.

[serpico]

 One of the finest upper back movements ever created. I will reiterate A few tips I'm sure all of you are aware of. Nothing below a 90 degree angle no higher than a 45. Pull to the waist. Initiate  the pull from the elbows (not the biceps). Concentrate on the contraction and release in a controlled manner.

[!@#$%]

One of those wildly unsupported theories that is perpetrated. Go heavier on most exercises and results follow, sometimes faster with isolations, actually.

Basically to get the best mind-muscle connection & development from compounds, subtle variations are used to make them a little more like isolations and less like typical compounds that are great for sports applications.

When you pull something towards your body you are using your lats whether or not you are concentrating on using them or not. You can't use your pecs in a barbell row, no matter how much you concentrate on them. You can reduce the amount of bicep involvement to an extent, though not completely.

There is definately a connection between lifting heavy and hypertrophy. The successful bodybuilders, I'm aware of, that don't lift that heavy, do a lot of volume or pre-exhaust (like Haney used to).

[serpico]

you just incorporate more muscle fibers when focusing on the contraction. Your momentum can eliminate a good portion of the movement. I say moderate weight with strict form is the way to go for upper back development.

[!@#$%]

you just incorporate more muscle fibers when focusing on the contraction. Your momentum can eliminate a good portion of the movement. I say moderate weight with strict form is the way to go for upper back development.

And powerlifters don't incorporate most of their muscle fibers in their lifts? The top 3 bodybuilders right now are Coleman, Cutler and Ruhl and you don't see them ever lifting moderate weights. Like Ronnie says, " everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but no one wants to lift no damn heavy weights."

[serpico]

Right now Ronnie has several tears that might effect his prep for this years O (due to excessively heavy loads?), Jay has resorted to volume training(his best shape at his last O?) and I don't know too much about Mr. Ruhl. By the way heavy is a relative term  Ronnie manages to do 10-12 reps with the majority of his training poundages thus making it moderate for him.

[pumpster]

Ron lifts big numbers for videos, but for the most part is going moderately heavy using 10-15 reps per set, which is better for growth and mitigates injury risk. He's lowering the weight even more when doing giant sets with virtually no rest in between sets and when doing isolations.

The muscles have to be isolated as much as possible during compounds by using variations that isolate the muscles more. Either with strict reps (followed by looser style at the end of sets) or cheats that many pros do that amount to partials within the ROM sweet spots.

[!@#$%]

Ron lifts big numbers for videos, but for the most part is going moderately heavy using 10-15 reps per set, which is better for growth and mitigates injury risk. He's lowering the weight even more when doing giant sets with virtually no rest in between sets and when doing isolations.

The muscles have to be isolated as much as possible during compounds by using variations that isolate the muscles more. Either with strict reps (followed by looser style at the end of sets) or cheats that many pros do that amount to partials within the ROM sweet spots.

Lifting with your elbows out takes emphasis off the lats and onto the middle back. Lifting with your elbows will reduce bicep involvement. It is also possible to get the lower back involved as well. But after doing these for a while, you should be able to do all that instinictively. If you are using correct form, you will be lifting with your lats whether you are feeling it or not.

I think most of the pros do a lot of warm up sets of 10-15 reps but their actual sets are more like 5 reps, but I could be wrong on this. Most do a bulking cycle where their reps are considerably lower.

[pumpster]

If you think that lifting with elbows takes the emphasis off lats when it in fact isolates them more, then you disagree with me, Milos and a whole lotta others who've arrived at that conclusion from experience and knowledge.

[!@#$%]

If you think that lifting with elbows takes the emphasis off lats when it in fact isolates them more, then you disagree with me, Milos and a whole lotta others who've arrived at that conclusion from experience and knowledge.

I said lifting with your elbows takes emphasis off your biceps. Lifting with your elbows OUT takes emphasis off your lats, lifting with your elbows IN puts emphasis on your lats.

[pumpster]

OK i got lost in that run-on sentence and paragraph.

[Beefy]

Here is what is said to be the best way to do a barbell row (Pendaly rows)
"Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.

This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.

The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way. "

Bumpin' this.

[Cold]

stick to t-bar rows and dumbell rows. the first for overall mass and the second for fuller range of motion and contraction. the BB rows works great but it puts too much stress on lower back and hip.