Bodybuilding is not Aerobics

[escrima]

get it in your heads

[IroNat]

Aerobics are out, cardio is in.

[Dokey111]

What is the role of The Pump

[escrima]

http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/Bulletin2/9.PDF

[escrima]

if doing full body 3/5 days between workouts
split routine no more than 3 days a week maybe extend it to over 10 days
who said you have to be a slave of a calendar..who?
just what you have been lead to believe

[Hypertrophy]

get it in your heads

Mentzer was half right on a lot of things. He did steer the conversation back to shorter, more intense workouts and that is smart. But then he carried things to absurdity. I lift for general strength and have found that going short of failure is far better than failure. I recover faster and make steady progress. I lift heavy every third day and that works for me.

And to add a monkey wrench to things, I know a number of racing cyclists with quads 26" plus and they can ride 30 mile races without breaking a sweat. You can be big and have considerable cardiovascular endurance.

[Dokey111]

Mentzer was half right on a lot of things. He did steer the conversation back to shorter, more intense workouts and that is smart. But then he carried things to absurdity. I lift for general strength and have found that going short of failure is far better than failure. I recover faster and make steady progress. I lift heavy every third day and that works for me.

And to add a monkey wrench to things, I know a number of racing cyclists with quads 26" plus and they can ride 30 mile races without breaking a sweat. You can be big and have considerable cardiovascular endurance.

Also, remember when we talk about certain non-weight training athletes with superior muscular size, by and large there is NO eccentric resistance in their activity (cycling, speed skating etc).  Just intense, fast concentric bursts.  Bears examining.

[Rambone]

I beg to differ

[BB]

The interview is from the old "MM2K" Muscle Media series of tapes. A bit afterward, Mentzer would get really angry with them for publishing a photo of him looking like a mess, in the vicinity of a box of a dozen Dunkin Donuts (looked like creme filled chocolate). A bit after that, the whole Mentzer drinks his own piss rumor started like wildfire. 

Ah, the 90's.

[Hypertrophy]

Also, remember when we talk about certain non-weight training athletes with superior muscular size, by and large there is NO eccentric resistance in their activity (cycling, speed skating etc).  Just intense, fast concentric bursts.  Bears examining.

Exactly. A friend of mine was a speed skater in upstate NY and his quads came close to 27"! He never touched a weight. Typical workouts were 30 second sprints repeated a half dozen times a session.

[oldtimer1]

I remember watching Mike Mentzer on the Super Stars competition running the 100 yard dash. It was sad watching him run it. Reminded me a fat house wife waddling. 

Regarding doing cardio or aerobics Mike use to run and bike in his prime and documented it in his training journals. He became anti cardio after he stopped competing. Probably because he smoked like a chimney and did meth that made him so exhausted I bet he could barely walk.

[TheGrinch]

Exactly. A friend of mine was a speed skater in upstate NY and his quads came close to 27"! He never touched a weight. Typical workouts were 30 second sprints repeated a half dozen times a session.

gymnasts... same thing...decent muscle development using the same principles

[Thin Lizzy]

Exactly. A friend of mine was a speed skater in upstate NY and his quads came close to 27"! He never touched a weight. Typical workouts were 30 second sprints repeated a half dozen times a session.

Speed skater strides are essentially one-legged squats.

[Thin Lizzy]

Also, remember when we talk about certain non-weight training athletes with superior muscular size, by and large there is NO eccentric resistance in their activity (cycling, speed skating etc).  Just intense, fast concentric bursts.  Bears examining.

The argument for eccentric movements is that you can use more weight but it’s an Apple to Oranges comparison. Slowing a weight down is not the same as moving it in the opposite direction.

I’ve never found negatives to be of any value.


Regarding cardio, essentially every high level boxer throughout history has done roadwork. The same goes for Muay Thai fighters. Running is a requirement in high level Muay Thai gyms in Thailand: “No run. No fight!” So it probably has some value.

[oldtimer1]

The argument for eccentric movements is that you can use more weight but it’s an Apple to Oranges comparison. Slowing a weight down is not the same as moving in the opposite direction.

I’ve never found negatives to be of any value.


Regarding cardio, essentially every high level boxer throughout history has done roadwork. The same goes for Muay Thai fighters. Running is a requirement in high level Muay Thai gyms in Thailand: “No run. No fight!” So it probably has some value.

Throw in wrestlers and MMA fighters. Running is  a fundamental exercise.

[SGT BARNES]

I dont take advice from loser meth addicts who quit their game and suicide out because they got beat

get that in your head

[Thin Lizzy]

Throw in wrestlers and MMA fighters. Running is  a fundamental exercise.

Wrestlers usually have really good lats. Why?

They’re always trying to pull their resisting opponents’ head down and forward.

[Dave D]

Mentzer was half right on a lot of things. He did steer the conversation back to shorter, more intense workouts and that is smart. But then he carried things to absurdity. I lift for general strength and have found that going short of failure is far better than failure. I recover faster and make steady progress. I lift heavy every third day and that works for me.

And to add a monkey wrench to things, I know a number of racing cyclists with quads 26" plus and they can ride 30 mile races without breaking a sweat. You can be big and have considerable cardiovascular endurance.

And there’s many that don’t like Floyd Landis and Lance Armstrong.  As with everything sports related genetics determines a lot.

If your physical makeup doesn’t support the potential of 26” thighs no amount of training or drugs will let you develop that size of muscularity.

Mentzer was smart and an elite bodybuilder but he never used his theories to build his physique, he only came to his conclusions after he was well established. Similar to Chic telling GB that the flat bench doesn’t build a good/big chest. He made those comments after he spent 15 years using the flat bench to build his chest.

you have to have a solid foundation first.

[Hypertrophy]

And there’s many that don’t like Floyd Landis and Lance Armstrong.  As with everything sports related genetics determines a lot.

If your physical makeup doesn’t support the potential of 26” thighs no amount of training or drugs will let you develop that size of muscularity.

Mentzer was smart and an elite bodybuilder but he never used his theories to build his physique, he only came to his conclusions after he was well established. Similar to Chic telling GB that the flat bench doesn’t build a good/big chest. He made those comments after he spent 15 years using the flat bench to build his chest.

you have to have a solid foundation first.

Not sure how disliking Floyd or Lance enters the picture since we aren't talking about their training methods, lol. Mentzer built his physique off steroids. He talked fondly of Dr. Ziegler. Without dope Mentzer would have been nothing.

Mentzer pretty much mouthed everything Arthur Jones said and then put his own name on it. And Jones wanted to sell lots of machines and the only way to do that was to preach that one set was all you needed- that meant higher throughput in gyms that bought his expensive contraptions.

Genetics and physical development go hand in hand, but the efficacy of training methods has a bigger effect.

And Mentzer was an idiot. Why would you become a meth addict and chain smoker after preaching fitness your entire adult career? Because he had a frail mind.

[Dokey111]

Speed skater strides are essentially one-legged squats.

but without the eccentric/negative part

[Dave D]

Not sure how disliking Floyd or Lance enters the picture since we aren't talking about their training methods, lol. Mentzer built his physique off steroids. He talked fondly of Dr. Ziegler. Without dope Mentzer would have been nothing.

Mentzer pretty much mouthed everything Arthur Jones said and then put his own name on it. And Jones wanted to sell lots of machines and the only way to do that was to preach that one set was all you needed- that meant higher throughput in gyms that bought his expensive contraptions.

Genetics and physical development go hand in hand, but the efficacy of training methods has a bigger effect.

And Mentzer was an idiot. Why would you become a meth addict and chain smoker after preaching fitness your entire adult career? Because he had a frail mind.

Sorry bro, I assumed Armstrong and Landis were also the cyclists you were referring to when you were talking about 30 mile races,  completely different sports. I didn't dislike either I meant many cyclists dont have huge quads (like Lance and Floyd) I was pointing out their unremarkable builds despite their intense physical training and drug use.

My main point was Mentzer used completely different principles to establish his physique than the ones he started to promote when he was done competing. Any resistance training will build muscle, as time passes many factors change what is needed to maintain a similar build.

Mentzer was disingenuous with his claims. Although apparently Dorian applied his theories to multiple wins so maybe I'm the dope.

[Humble Narcissist]

Mentzer was half right on a lot of things. He did steer the conversation back to shorter, more intense workouts and that is smart. But then he carried things to absurdity. I lift for general strength and have found that going short of failure is far better than failure. I recover faster and make steady progress. I lift heavy every third day and that works for me.

And to add a monkey wrench to things, I know a number of racing cyclists with quads 26" plus and they can ride 30 mile races without breaking a sweat. You can be big and have considerable cardiovascular endurance.

Yes, training to failure is stupid.  No other athletes, including powerlifters and Olympic weightlifters, train to failure.

[TheGrinch]

This:




Plus this:




Equals This:

[Humble Narcissist]

I remember doing Sisco and Little bullshit workouts and losing muscle.  Eventually you end up working out once every month or two.

[IroNat]

Wrestlers usually have really good lats. Why?

They’re always trying to pull their resisting opponents’ head down and forward.

Wrestlers do tons of pullups and usually rope climbing as well. 

The top level guys have been doing so since they were little kids, usually starting very young.

Most have skinny legs which is really an advantage as it gives them a high strength to weight ratio.

Remember the guy with no legs who won an NCAA title?  It was actually an advantage because he had the upper body strength of several weight classes above his actual weight.  He was stronger than all his opponents.  Plus nobody could take him down!

Still an amazing story.