No knock warrants

[chaos]

Chaos what crime was committed by B. Taylor? Did the cops at least kill the shooter?

Maybe look into her a bit farther than your tv? She was no saint.

[Dave D]

Maybe look into her a bit farther than your tv? She was no saint.

Lol, I never said she was a saint, just answer the question.

Her having a dead body in her trunk would have been a good response.

Don’t get your feelings hurt.

[Deacon Jeschin]

I keep a firearm in every room in my house. I’ve said this a million times. If someone breaks in and there is an imminent threat to my family or self, I’m unloading my full magazine

What if the intruders threatening your family are cops going to the wrong address ?  It appears the police are under some added pressure these days and numerical mistakes happen once in a while.

Are you still going to unload your arsenal, or are you going to be a good citizen, cower down, and let the nice policemen abuse you and yours?

[pellius]

I understand your point but Bin Laden was never an American, so the police wouldn’t need a no knock.

The bigger question is what type of criminal needs a no knock? What would be the parameters? A Jeffery Epstein type would be an ideal candidate as opposed to a low level drug dealer.

The problem with the Taylor issue is the police thought she was receiving drug shipments via USPS, that is an easy claim to verify.

The cops screwed up, I don’t think anyone can dispute that, this is why body cams should be used at all times. We have a he said she said situation with the police saying the announced themselves. Why ever leave the fact that this can be argued up to chance?

For me this is less a race issue as it is having the police do their job correctly.

I mean seriously they have a no knock warrant because they want a leg up on the criminal, a suspect they should then assume is armed and dangerous; and two of these guys still get shot?



It’s a hot mess.

The fact that Bin Laden is not an American nor was he in the U.S. is irrelevant. I wanted to give an obvious example where there are situations when a no knock warrant is justified. Some idiot asked, "How long does it take to knock?" What?
You knock and say, "Police, open up." You wait a bit and knock again announcing yourself. Those precious seconds can make all the difference in the world. If it was a drug cartel it gives time for everybody to get their guns. Time for escape. Time to get rid of evidence.

And exactly how did the cops "screw up". "I don't think anyone can dispute that." I really hate when people presume to speak for everybody. Plenty of people, me included, even people on this very thread, don't think the cops screwed up. So please, just speak for yourself. They were shot at. What were they suppose to do? What would you do if you were being shot at. They already announce it was the police. 

Why isn't it obvious to everyone that whenever we have these kinds of incidences they all have one thing in common -- they resisted the police. Just get with the program and take it to court if you think something was done wrong. It is never ever going to end well when you get into an altercation with a cop. Never.

[pellius]

Chaos what crime was committed by B. Taylor? Did the cops at least kill the shooter?

There was evidence that she was involved in his drug trafficking. The boyfriend, when under survellience, went to her apartment, pick up a package, and then he was followed where there later was an exchange giving the package to a known drug dealer. He also listed her address as his. It is highly unlikely that she was unaware of his drug dealing. Nevertheless, a connection was made and they were sent to investigate not to raid her apartment. That's why they didn't knock. She lived alone and there was no compelling reason to thing that she presented an immediate threat.

[chaos]

Lol, I never said she was a saint, just answer the question.

Her having a dead body in her trunk would have been a good response.

Don’t get your feelings hurt.

I answered the question, I have no feelings, suck a fat dick.

[Dave D]

The fact that Bin Laden is not an American nor was he in the U.S. is irrelevant. I wanted to give an obvious example where there are situations when a no knock warrant is justified. Some idiot asked, "How long does it take to knock?" What?
You knock and say, "Police, open up." You wait a bit and knock again announcing yourself. Those precious seconds can make all the difference in the world. If it was a drug cartel it gives time for everybody to get their guns. Time for escape. Time to get rid of evidence.

And exactly how did the cops "screw up". "I don't think anyone can dispute that." I really hate when people presume to speak for everybody. Plenty of people, me included, even people on this very thread, don't think the cops screwed up. So please, just speak for yourself. They were shot at. What were they suppose to do? What would you do if you were being shot at. They already announce it was the police. 

Why isn't it obvious to everyone that whenever we have these kinds of incidences they all have one thing in common -- they resisted the police. Just get with the program and take it to court if you think something was done wrong. It is never ever going to end well when you get into an altercation with a cop. Never.

Pellius, let me start by saying I know you’re a smart guy with a good perspective based on your life’s experiences.

I asked you to set the parameters for a no knock warrant. You haven’t. You use the example of a non US citizen terrorist leader. So if Bin Laden is who we use no knock warrants for I’ll ask you if B. Taylor is  in the same category? And since she isn’t what level of dangerous criminal do you rank her at? Is she an Al Capone, John Gotti or Charles Manson? Or is she just a local gang leader?

I’ve clearly explained why I think these cops did a bad job, I don’t know how I can explain it any better. They felt this was dangerous to procure a no knock warrant THEN THEY DONT USE IT AND IN THE PROCESS THEY GET SHOT AND THEN KILL THE SUSPECT BUT NOT THE SHOOTER.  If they use the no knock warrant they requested and were granted we have a COMPLETELY different situation on our hands.

I’m not saying they were wrong to return fire, but I will say they were wrong to not use body cameras. If they did we could EASILY eliminate any arguments that they did not announce themselves, or the response that the residents asked who was there and they never responded. Why have body cameras, or dash cameras, and not use them?

If you, or anyone else, think these guys did a good job in this situation then we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sorry I spoke for you, I would assume looking at the facts it would only require common sense to realize they walked into the situation poorly prepared.

Also at no point did I say or imply that resisting the police was an option. This is always a dumb choice and it will cost you, it’s an encounter you will never win in the moment.

 I also never said I’m against police or that they arent in intense stress filled life and death situations. But because they are they should take EVERY precaution to ensure their safety and the safety of other innocent people around them.

[Dave D]

There was evidence that she was involved in his drug trafficking. The boyfriend, when under survellience, went to her apartment, pick up a package, and then he was followed where there later was an exchange giving the package to a known drug dealer. He also listed her address as his. It is highly unlikely that she was unaware of his drug dealing. Nevertheless, a connection was made and they were sent to investigate not to raid her apartment. That's why they didn't knock. She lived alone and there was no compelling reason to thing that she presented an immediate threat.

Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?

Why didn’t the police verify that she was being sent drugs? Police can seize a package prior to delivery and inspect it with a warrant. It happens  in the private sector with UPS all the time. Do you think the government operated USPS would be more difficult to work with?

I didn’t say she was an angel. I asked what crime she committed that lead to her death. So far you’re using circumstantial evidence.

What illegal drugs are justifiable to buy and sell? Based on statements you’ve made here you have bought illegal drugs, conversed with drug dealers and made exchanges with them. So based on this “evidence” you’d have no issue with police showing up at your place using a no knock? Or do steroids not count on the same level?

Again we are arguing that the police did a good job with the investigation and made the best use of their resources, I don’t think they did. I really don’t care about the woman but I do care that our police are doing everything to be safe and above reproach. Do you not feel the same way, especially when you consider the evidence you presented for this woman is not that different than the experiences you yourself have had with illegal drugs?

[Dave D]

I answered the question, I have no feelings, suck a fat dick.

  Sounds like you’re having an extra intense period.

Also where do you get your unbiased and balanced news from champ?

[Bevo]

Soggy never knocks when he enters either

[Princess L]

Sounds like you’re having an extra intense period.

Also where do you get your unbiased and balanced news from champ?

Asking you the same question...for a friend

[Dave D]

Asking you the same question...for a friend

Chaos already established I only use my TV for news.

Maybe look into her a bit farther than your tv? She was no saint.

[pellius]

Pellius, let me start by saying I know you’re a smart guy with a good perspective based on your life’s experiences.

I asked you to set the parameters for a no knock warrant. You haven’t. You use the example of a non US citizen terrorist leader. So if Bin Laden is who we use no knock warrants for I’ll ask you if B. Taylor is  in the same category? And since she isn’t what level of dangerous criminal do you rank her at? Is she an Al Capone, John Gotti or Charles Manson? Or is she just a local gang leader?

I’ve clearly explained why I think these cops did a bad job, I don’t know how I can explain it any better. They felt this was dangerous to procure a no knock warrant THEN THEY DONT USE IT AND IN THE PROCESS THEY GET SHOT AND THEN KILL THE SUSPECT BUT NOT THE SHOOTER.  If they use the no knock warrant they requested and were granted we have a COMPLETELY different situation on our hands.

I’m not saying they were wrong to return fire, but I will say they were wrong to not use body cameras. If they did we could EASILY eliminate any arguments that they did not announce themselves, or the response that the residents asked who was there and they never responded. Why have body cameras, or dash cameras, and not use them?

If you, or anyone else, think these guys did a good job in this situation then we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sorry I spoke for you, I would assume looking at the facts it would only require common sense to realize they walked into the situation poorly prepared.

Also at no point did I say or imply that resisting the police was an option. This is always a dumb choice and it will cost you, it’s an encounter you will never win in the moment.

 I also never said I’m against police or that they arent in intense stress filled life and death situations. But because they are they should take EVERY precaution to ensure their safety and the safety of other innocent people around them.

You want me to give you specific parameters that will justify a no knock warrant. Really? How about if there is evidence that the suspect will shoot you. But my argument, addressing the topic of this thread, was that no-knock warrants should not be completely ruled out. And you are asking me if I put Bin Laden and Taylor in the same category? Why would you ask such a stupid question? Especially when I was agonizingly specific in Taylor's involvement. When did I even remotely imply that I thought they were and what does that have to do with the new argument that you seem to be presenting, that they should have issued a no-knock warrant? And, no, I don't have have a specific ranking system for the varying degrees of dangers and risks. Do you? But it doesn't take a genius to figure out if Charles Manson, Bin Laden, or Satan, that Taylor doesn't quite match up to them.

Your expanation as to why they did a bad job was that they DID knock. I explained to you why they didn't. Taylor did not appear to pose an imminent threat. She lived alone, worked two jobs, no history of violence. She was termed a "soft target" to use the parlance of LE. There was no SWAT team prepared for a gun battle. It was plain clothes officers issuing a warrant. By your reasoning, every warrant served should be a no-knock raid which would do little to quell tensions against LE. It should be noted that they were assigned to serve four warrants at different locations and the '"no-knock" order was rubber stamped/copy/paste on the warrants which is generally against standard protocol. Sloppy if not an outright violation. This is not the police's fault. The police claimed that after the warrants were issued they were told to disregard the no-knock instructions because there was no evidence the suspect would shoot or destroy evidence which is part of the criteria for no-knock warrants. Remember, the very reason why the media wanted to promote the lie that it was a no-knock warrant because that is a much more aggressive tactic which would promote the image that the media and the Left want to portray as the police being violent and trigger happy. It would have implicated the police as such busting the door down of a young girl, living alone, working two jobs as an EMT. 

And not having all the equipment you deem necessary is not the officer's fault. Still, the majority of departments don't have body cams on them. That's still a relatively new thing.

And if you think it is just common sense that the police were wrong then you are in the minority and it is not common sense. After all, they were acquitted. So even legally they did nothing wrong. Could it have been done better? Sure? Everything can be done better. But none of this wouldn't have happened if her current boyfriend, also a drug dealer, didn't shoot at the officers.

Also at no point did I say or imply that you approve of resisting the police as an option. I don't know where you got that impression.
 

Police are human beings and cannot always be perfect but none of this would have happened if they just opened the door when the police showed up. Instead, he shot at them. How would body cams have changed that?

[pellius]

Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?

Why didn’t the police verify that she was being sent drugs? Police can seize a package prior to delivery and inspect it with a warrant. It happens  in the private sector with UPS all the time. Do you think the government operated USPS would be more difficult to work with?

I didn’t say she was an angel. I asked what crime she committed that lead to her death. So far you’re using circumstantial evidence.

What illegal drugs are justifiable to buy and sell? Based on statements you’ve made here you have bought illegal drugs, conversed with drug dealers and made exchanges with them. So based on this “evidence” you’d have no issue with police showing up at your place using a no knock? Or do steroids not count on the same level?

Again we are arguing that the police did a good job with the investigation and made the best use of their resources, I don’t think they did. I really don’t care about the woman but I do care that our police are doing everything to be safe and above reproach. Do you not feel the same way, especially when you consider the evidence you presented for this woman is not that different than the experiences you yourself have had with illegal drugs?

I misspoke, they DID knock but I do find it odd that now that you thought it was a no-knock warrant you now change your argument to again find fault with the police.

"Circumstantial evidence" is still evidence. It's is taken into account. A known drug dealer picks up a pack from his girlfriend and then gives it to another known drug dealer. Connect the dots. Remember, that always is the charge when LE doesn't catch something. Like the 911 bombings. Only after the fact so many were saying why didn't they "connect the dots". Arabs only wanting to learn how to fly but not land the planes. Circumstantial evidence. Connect the dots. Nobody is wiser than the Monday morning quarterback. And as far as I know, she wasn't charged with any crime. She was being investigated.

I believe drugs should me legal for adults so that point is moot.

I don't know how much more things could have been done better. They went to the door, knocked and identified themselves, they got no answer so they broke in, they got shot at, they shot back. To say they should have had body cams changes nothing. You would just get to see them being shot at and them shooting. You believe, at leat initially, that they should not have knocked but now you are changing your argument and say they shouldn't have gotten a no-knock warrant. You ignore the fact that they were later told, after the warrant but before they went to her home that she was considered a soft target and to ignore the no-knock warrant.

When you start changing your argument, which curiously is always geared toward portraying the police as the bad guys, you lose credibility.

None of this would have happened if they just opened the door and went with the program. Why don't you think they bear any of the responsibility of what happened? He shot at them FFS!

[Dave D]

You want me to give you specific parameters that will justify a no knock warrant. Really? How about if there is evidence that the suspect will shoot you. But my argument, addressing the topic of this thread, was that no-knock warrants should not be completely ruled out. And you are asking me if I put Bin Laden and Taylor in the same category? Why would you ask such a stupid question? Especially when I was agonizingly specific in Taylor's involvement. When did I even remotely imply that I thought they were and what does that have to do with the new argument that you seem to be presenting, that they should have issued a no-knock warrant? And, no, I don't have have a specific ranking system for the varying degrees of dangers and risks. Do you? But it doesn't take a genius to figure out if Charles Manson, Bin Laden, or Satan, that Taylor doesn't quite match up to them.

Your expanation as to why they did a bad job was that they DID knock. I explained to you why they didn't. Taylor did not appear to pose an imminent threat. She lived alone, worked two jobs, no history of violence. She was termed a "soft target" to use the parlance of LE. There was no SWAT team prepared for a gun battle. It was plain clothes officers issuing a warrant. By your reasoning, every warrant served should be a no-knock raid which would do little to quell tensions against LE. It should be noted that they were assigned to serve four warrants at different locations and the '"no-knock" order was rubber stamped/copy/paste on the warrants which is generally against standard protocol. Sloppy if not an outright violation. This is not the police's fault. The police claimed that after the warrants were issued they were told to disregard the no-knock instructions because there was no evidence the suspect would shoot or destroy evidence which is part of the criteria for no-knock warrants. Remember, the very reason why the media wanted to promote the lie that it was a no-knock warrant because that is a much more aggressive tactic which would promote the image that the media and the Left want to portray as the police being violent and trigger happy. It would have implicated the police as such busting the door down of a young girl, living alone, working two jobs as an EMT. 

And not having all the equipment you deem necessary is not the officer's fault. Still, the majority of departments don't have body cams on them. That's still a relatively new thing.

And if you think it is just common sense that the police were wrong then you are in the minority and it is not common sense. After all, they were acquitted. So even legally they did nothing wrong. Could it have been done better? Sure? Everything can be done better. But none of this wouldn't have happened if her current boyfriend, also a drug dealer, didn't shoot at the officers.

Also at no point did I say or imply that you approve of resisting the police as an option. I don't know where you got that impression.
 

Police are human beings and cannot always be perfect but none of this would have happened if they just opened the door when the police showed up. Instead, he shot at them. How would body cams have changed that?

Dude, you used bin laden as an example. If comparing the two is stupid you should realize you were the one who made it.  Bin Laden, shot by marines on a covert operation. You said police should be allowed to use a no knock in that case.  You also asked if it was it justified to use no knocks for Bin Laden so obviously you had parameters in mind. Dope.

They had a no knock warrant. It was issued to them. Please check your facts, you can’t even keep your arguments straight. On post you say they have it the next you say they don’t.

So she wasn’t a threat but the police obtained a no knock warrant, which are used for very specific instances to capture dangerous criminals.....

I realize you’ve never been wrong on the internet. I’m not going to change your opinion or am I going to rehash the same thoughts that you repeatedly can’t comprehend.

This is isn’t a left or right issue, it’s police doing a job to the best of their ability to protect and serve. Two men were reassigned and one lost his job, you must think that happened because of the left pressuring the police department, not because the police determined these officers did their job poorly and put lives at risk. Which is a problem in itself because if you think that then the police shouldn’t cower to media pressure and if it isn’t then maybe the police department actually believes their officers did a bad job.

I hope your life is filled with these same type of incompetent people who deal with every aspect of your personal life so when they cost you time, money and cause you a great deal of frustration you can remember they’re just people.

God bless brother.

[Dave D]

I misspoke, they DID knock but I do find it odd that now that you thought it was a no-knock warrant you now change your argument to again find fault with the police.

"Circumstantial evidence" is still evidence. It's is taken into account. A known drug dealer picks up a pack from his girlfriend and then gives it to another known drug dealer. Connect the dots. Remember, that always is the charge when LE doesn't catch something. Like the 911 bombings. Only after the fact so many were saying why didn't they "connect the dots". Arabs only wanting to learn how to fly but not land the planes. Circumstantial evidence. Connect the dots. Nobody is wiser than the Monday morning quarterback. And as far as I know, she wasn't charged with any crime. She was being investigated.

I believe drugs should me legal for adults so that point is moot.

I don't know how much more things could have been done better. They went to the door, knocked and identified themselves, they got no answer so they broke in, they got shot at, they shot back. To say they should have had body cams changes nothing. You would just get to see them being shot at and them shooting. You believe, at leat initially, that they should not have knocked but now you are changing your argument and say they shouldn't have gotten a no-knock warrant. You ignore the fact that they were later told, after the warrant but before they went to her home that she was considered a soft target and to ignore the no-knock warrant.

When you start changing your argument, which curiously is always geared toward portraying the police as the bad guys, you lose credibility.

None of this would have happened if they just opened the door and went with the program. Why don't you think they bear any of the responsibility of what happened? He shot at them FFS!

Dude.... I’ve ALWAYS SAID THEY HAD A NO KNOCK WARRANT AND IF THEY USED IT this whole scenario doesn’t happen. I’ve never changed that opinion. I’ve also said they should have used body cameras. They should have taken advantage of every tool available for the safety of everyone involved.

They did not. Apparently their boss felt the same way.

You love to argue for the sake of argument.

[pellius]

Dude, you used bin laden as an example. If comparing the two is stupid you should realize you were the one who made it.  Bin Laden, shot by marines on a covert operation. You said police should be allowed to use a no knock in that case.  You also asked if it was it justified to use no knocks for Bin Laden so obviously you had parameters in mind. Dope.

They had a no knock warrant. It was issued to them. Please check your facts, you can’t even keep your arguments straight. On post you say they have it the next you say they don’t.

So she wasn’t a threat but the police obtained a no knock warrant, which are used for very specific instances to capture dangerous criminals.....

I realize you’ve never been wrong on the internet. I’m not going to change your opinion or am I going to rehash the same thoughts that you repeatedly can’t comprehend.

This is isn’t a left or right issue, it’s police doing a job to the best of their ability to protect and serve. Two men were reassigned and one lost his job, you must think that happened because of the left pressuring the police department, not because the police determined these officers did their job poorly and put lives at risk. Which is a problem in itself because if you think that then the police shouldn’t cower to media pressure and if it isn’t then maybe the police department actually believes their officers did a bad job.

I hope your life is filled with these same type of incompetent people who deal with every aspect of your personal life so when they cost you time, money and cause you a great deal of frustration you can remember they’re just people.

God bless brother.

Oh boy, I guess I give people here too much credit. I never compared Bin Laden to Taylor. You did. The initial argument was that no-knock warrants should be ended. I said that there were circumstances where it would be justified. I used Bin Laden as an obvious example thinking the circumstances would be enough. Then I had to further clarify that it doesn't matter if Bin Laden was an American or if even if he was in the U.S. I had wrongly extrapolated that someone could easily see that it was the danger of the circumstance that I was describing. And if that wasn't clear enough I switch to drug cartels to make it easier to relate to. And though I don't have a formal list of the conditions for a no knock warrants I would think it would have been obvious that I did have "parameters". And if that was obvious enough I then gave a specific parameter saying that if the police were in credible danger of being violently resisted, i.e., shot at and added destroying evidence. I don't know how much clearer, and further clarifying I can be. Maybe if I could write it in crayons it might be more understandable.

They did have a no-knock warrant. I never disputed that. I had mispoke in one of my posts and when it was pointed out i immediate admitted my mistake. Why do you ignore this? And why do you ignore the fact that the police said that the no-knock warrant was recinded because it was determined that Taylor was a soft target.

You ignore all these points because it doesn't promote your agenda. It is you who have changed your story. First making the argument that it should have been a no-knock warrant and then arguing against the police when it was treated as a knock-first warrant. Not once did you mention the fact that a known drug dealer fired first at the officer. Your anti-police bias has become obvious and your frustration at being exposed is now to attack me personally and hope that bad things happen to me.

Typical. And that's what makes it a Left and Right issue. It's how we view the world. It's a difference in perspective. You think the way you do the same reason why you are a Democrat and an Liberal. Liberals actually believe that reducing LE will help with violence and crime. Republicans and Conservatives believe the opposite. You focus more, or exclusively, on the behavior of the police. I focus on the behavior of the criminal. The one who escalated everything. The one who fired the first shots. None of this would have happened if the drug dealer didn't start shooting at the police. It's not that either of us are bad people. We want the same thing. For people to live in peace and be happy. We just see things in a different light. I think I am right. You think you are right. I wish we could replay this where in my scenario the drug dealer didn't shoot at the officer and your scenario where the police wore bodycams and just broke in without knocking.

Do you really believe in God? If so, what religion are you?

[pellius]

Dude.... I’ve ALWAYS SAID THEY HAD A NO KNOCK WARRANT AND IF THEY USED IT this whole scenario doesn’t happen. I’ve never changed that opinion. I’ve also said they should have used body cameras. They should have taken advantage of every tool available for the safety of everyone involved.

They did not. Apparently their boss felt the same way.

You love to argue for the sake of argument.

"Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?"

The implications being that because she was deemed a soft target they should have had a knock-first warrant.

And how do you know if they even have bodycams? It's not standard issue for all police departments and these were plains clothes officers. And how would have that change anything? They knocked several times before they broke in then they were shot at. You seem to completely ignore the very pertinent fact that the police were shot at first. Why?

And how would not knocking and just busting in change anything other than make the situation more immediately urgent?

[Dave D]

Oh boy, I guess I give people here too much credit. I never compared Bin Laden to Taylor. You did.  The initial argument was that no-knock warrants should be ended. I said that there were circumstances where it would be justified. I used Bin Laden as an obvious example thinking the circumstances would be enough. Then I had to further clarify that it doesn't matter if Bin Laden was an American or if even if he was in the U.S. WRONG. I pointed out Bin Laden was a bad example to compare to this situation. You used him as an EXTREME example for why no knocks are needed. Was B. Taylor Louisville’s Bin Laden? What level of criminal was she?I had wrongly extrapolated that someone could easily see that it was the danger of the circumstance that I was describing. And if that wasn't clear enough I switch to drug cartels to make it easier to relate to. And though I don't have a formal list of the conditions for a no knock warrants I would think it would have been obvious that I did have "parameters"Sorry I asked you to explain yourself. You want no knocks for Bin Laden level terrorists/criminals. Fine, would B. Taylor justify a no knock warrant in this case then?. And if that was obvious enough I then gave a specific parameter saying that if the police were in credible danger of being violently resisted, i.e., shot at and added destroying evidence. I don't know how much clearer, and further clarifying I can be. Maybe if I could write it in crayons it might be more understandable. You’ve already stated you misspoke about the police having a no knock warrant. So you were not very clear. Apparently B. Taylor was such a high level drug dealer, that a no knock was issued so they could catch her  with her score. But they knocked. And zero drugs were found. They must have flushed them all right?.

They did have a no-knock warrant. I never disputed that. I had mispoke in one of my posts and when it was pointed out i immediate admitted my mistake. Why do you ignore this? And why do you ignore the fact that the police said that the no-knock warrant was recinded because it was determined that Taylor was a soft target.The police DID HAVE A NO KNOCK WARRANT  it was not rescinded. Please verify your statement. Hopefully this is a credible source for you:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/30/fact-check-police-had-no-knock-warrant-breonna-taylor-apartment/3235029001/



You ignore all these points because it doesn't promote your agenda. What is my agenda? That police should do the best job possible when it involves human lives? That’s an agendaIt is you who have changed your story. First making the argument that it should have been a no-knock warrant and then arguing against the police when it was treated as a knock-first warrant. Wrong. I have always said they should have used the no knock warrant issued to them. My opinion hasn’t changed. Not once did you mention the fact that a known drug dealer fired first at the officer. Please provide evidence that the boy friend in the house was a known drug dealer. Kenneth Walker, the man who shot at the police has no record of dealing drugs that I have found.Your anti-police bias has become obvious and your frustration at being exposed is now to attack me personally and hope that bad things happen to me. Wrong. I said I hope the same incompetence you justified in this case is the same incompetence you experience in your daily life. If these cops did their job correctly, which you argue that they did, explain how that is wishing bad upon you?

Typical. And that's what makes it a Left and Right issue. It's how we view the world. It's a difference in perspective. You think the way you do the same reason why you are a Democrat and an Liberal. Please don’t assume you know me. As you asked that I don’t speak for you I ask the same respect. Your attempt at character assassination is no different than those who call you a pedophileLiberals actually believe that reducing LE will help with violence and crime. Republicans and Conservatives believe the opposite. You focus more, or exclusively, on the behavior of the police. I focus on the behavior of the criminal. I have never called for reducing LE, just accountability. And to your point there were no criminals only suspects and one suspect had a legal registered gunThe one who escalated everything. The one who fired the first shots. None of this would have happened if the drug dealer didn't start shooting at the police.Please verify your statement. When was Kenneth Walker dealing drugs? It's not that either of us are bad people. We want the same thing. For people to live in peace and be happy. We just see things in a different light. I think I am right. You think you are right. I wish we could replay this where in my scenario the drug dealer didn't shoot at the officer and your scenario where the police wore bodycams and just broke in without knocking.Agreed. But now you’re saying if they police used a no knock warrant it’s breaking in? That’s not fair to assume because when I wanted  the police to use the warrant type they were issued it’s a break in.

Do you really believe in God? If so, what religion are you? I do. I’ll answer your question but let me ask you was Jesus a Republican  or Democrat ?

[Dave D]

"Wait so they didn’t knock? She wasn’t considered to be an immediate threat but they still grabbed a no knock warrant?"

The implications being that because she was deemed a soft target they should have had a knock-first warrant.

And how do you know if they even have bodycams? It's not standard issue for all police departments and these were plains clothes officers. And how would have that change anything? the police department addressed the body cam issue. The reason they would make a difference is because it would verify the story that they identified themselves. The shooter said they DID NOT, interviewed neighbors said they did not. The 3 police serving the warrant said they did as did 1 witness. Why even have this as a dispute if you have resources that can prove the truth. Body cams also record sound. It is a good piece of equipment to verify what happened. They knocked several times before they broke in then they were shot at. You seem to completely ignore the very pertinent fact that the police were shot at first. Why? I have pointed out that the shooter, Kenneth Walker contends the police never identified their self. He alleges they asked who is there and no one responded. I think the police did identify themselves, or why knock. Or what if they really couldn’t hear the police identify themselves over their tv, what if the shooter is being truthful? Cops aren’t above reproach, we know they changed the arrest time while serving a warrant at her ex boyfriend’s... However  we now have a he said, she said issue that could have been easily disproven if body cams were worn.

And how would not knocking and just busting in change anything other than make the situation more immediately urgent? Then why ask for a no knock warrant? You explained why they’re used. If  the element of surprise  wouldn’t have been useful here, were police lives, as well as other residents, were put in danger, then why have them at all?

I’d also like to point out all the officers involved with this case were reassigned. If they did nothing wrong why is their department acting irrationally? 

[pellius]

Bodycams would verify the story but it would not change it. If they all wore bodycams nothing would have changed. Same scenario except it would have been recorded. If now you want to change the argument as to the veracity of the story that is a completely different issue.

Do you really believe that whether it was a knock or no-knock raid that the police did not identified themselves as it is standard policy? Why would you take the word of a drug dealer, who initiated the fire fight and who has every reason to lie, over the police, who would have no reason to break protocol when conducting such a raid? Can't you see, and here I think I can speak for viturally everyone reading this thread, your obvious bias against the police?

BTW, I can speak from first hand experience as I looked down a row of MP5s pointed at me that LE made it very LOUD and clear that they were LE when they pounded on my door. Everything went smoothly and peacefully as they ransack my residence as I sat in the garage chatting with the SWAT team when I recognize one of them from high school and we had a lot of mutual friends. I just went with the program though I thought they were unnecessarily rough pushing me to my knees as they cuffed me. I even asked asked one of the team members who was especially jacked where he got his gear from he just told me never to order overseas. When I posted bail and was picked up by one of the Dogg the Bounty Hunter drivers. He told me he use to be really into working out and got his juice from his roommate. He told me he planned to get back into it and if I can hook him up. He gave me his name and phone number. BTW, it was completely random that I wound up with Dogg. I never watched the show and wasn't familiar with him. When I was in jail one of the guards gave me a phone book and said to call a bail bondsman. I had no idea who to pick but one said they were Christians so I choose that one. When my brother picked me up at the office he was all giddy as he was a big fan of the show. He pointed to one guy and said, "That's Leland." I found Dogg to be quite a sight with his long hair and wrinkled face. Years later I would run into him somewhat regularly as we both went to the same HRT doctor. He remembered me. Or at least so he claimed.

Typical tactic. You simply avoid the question and present an alternative scenario. Now it's about the conditions used to justify a no-knock warrant. According to the one of the reports I have read the no-knock warrant was just rubber stamped or copy/paste on four different warrants pertaining to the same suspect. When it was discovered and deemed Taylor was a soft target it was rescinded. If there is a case where there is strong evidence that a suspect may fire upon them or get rid of evidence they would have not sent just two plain clothes policemen.

Now if they did break in through the door. The boyfriend who was armed in the other room would have still pulled his firearm and shoot at the officers. He would have had a stronger case for shooting at them. Stronger, but not strong enough because they identified themselves as the police. That's why I said nothing would have change whether it was knock, no knock, bodycams or not. Walker would have still pulled his gun and shoot them because he was and is a criminal and didn't want to get arrested.

Again you say, nothing, absolutely nothing, about the drug dealer who first fired on the police and initiated all of this. That speaks volumes of your bias and agenda.

You know, I can end this discussion right now. Just answer these two questions and state your reason why. First: Do you believe that the police did not identify themselves clearly and loudly? If you don't think they did then it ends here. Second: Do you believe that Kenneth Walker was justified in shooting at the officers, and if so, why?

[Dave D]

Bodycams would verify the story but it would not change it. If they all wore bodycams nothing would have changed. Same scenario except it would have been recorded. If now you want to change the argument as to the veracity of the story that is a completely different issue.Please tell me where I said, or implied, body cams would have changed an outcome. I explained why they should have had body came.

Do you really believe that whether it was a knock or no-knock raid that the police did not identified themselves as it is standard policy? I’ve addressed this multiple times. I said I believe they identified who they were. Why do you insist otherwise? Why would you take the word of a drug dealer, who initiated the fire fight and who has every reason to lie, over the police, who would have no reason to break protocol when conducting such a raid? Can't you see, and here I think I can speak for viturally everyone reading this thread, your obvious bias against the police? My bias against police is equal to your hatred of blacks then. You keep calling these people drug dealers, why? When did they deal drugs? You were a drug dealer, so are drug dealers bad?

BTW, I can speak from first hand experience as I looked down a row of MP5s pointed at me that LE made it very LOUD and clear that they were LE when they pounded on my door. Everything went smoothly and peacefully as they ransack my residence as I sat in the garage chatting with the SWAT team when I recognize one of them from high school and we had a lot of mutual friends. I just went with the program though I thought they were unnecessarily rough pushing me to my knees as they cuffed me. I even asked asked one of the team members who was especially jacked where he got his gear from he just told me never to order overseas. When I posted bail and was picked up by one of the Dogg the Bounty Hunter drivers. He told me he use to be really into working out and got his juice from his roommate. He told me he planned to get back into it and if I can hook him up. He gave me his name and phone number. BTW, it was completely random that I wound up with Dogg. I never watched the show and wasn't familiar with him. When I was in jail one of the guards gave me a phone book and said to call a bail bondsman. I had no idea who to pick but one said they were Christians so I choose that one. When my brother picked me up at the office he was all giddy as he was a big fan of the show. He pointed to one guy and said, "That's Leland." I found Dogg to be quite a sight with his long hair and wrinkled face. Years later I would run into him somewhat regularly as we both went to the same HRT doctor. He remembered me. Or at least so he claimed. Sweet story. You should teach the black community you hate so much to listen to cops and they’d be alive. I once had 10 officers waiting for me to return to work for 4 hours the day before thanksgiving, they were ready to arrest me and throw me in jail because they thought I was my father. When they asked for my ID I gladly gave it to them but I also asked why they were harassing me, it was because I had the same name as my father. I asked what would have happened if I didn’t have my id and they said they would have taken me in. I said do I look like a 50+ year old man, I was mid  20s at the time? They answered no. And I said you’d still would have taken me in? They said yes because I was the name they were looking for. I then asked why they just didn’t go to his work and arrest him there and they asked where he worked. I said have you even talked with his po, because he has to report it to him.... long story short they left in a hurrry to go to my fathers work. I immediately call two of my friends on the force and ask if they had heard I was going to be arrested, they laughed and said yes and explained that I wasn’t the guy they were looking for, but the other officers had it on good authority I was. I’ve never used drugs or sold them. But everyone at my work had an opinion on what I did. A little double checking by the 10 cops who came to my work would have saved me the embarrassment and the community over time charges

Typical tactic. You simply avoid the question and present an alternative scenario. Now it's about the conditions used to justify a no-knock warrant. According to the one of the reports I have read the no-knock warrant was just rubber stamped or copy/paste on four different warrants pertaining to the same suspect. When it was discovered and deemed Taylor was a soft target it was rescinded. If there is a case where there is strong evidence that a suspect may fire upon them or get rid of evidence they would have not sent just two plain clothes policemen. Cool story, I provided a link that said they had a no knock warrant you say you read otherwise. I’m literally sharing the information I have that explains why I’ve formed my opinion, you continue to attack that opinion, reference articles you read but don’t share them..... thanks for your help. BTW I didn’t avoid a question but you have ignored many. You set the parameters for a no knock, again going to an extreme with bin laden and all I did was ask if B. Taylor fit your example. She doesn’t, but instead you say I change the scenarios.


Now if they did break in through the door. The boyfriend who was armed in the other room would have still pulled his firearm and shoot at the officers. He would have had a stronger case for shooting at them. Stronger, but not strong enough because they identified themselves as the police. That's why I said nothing would have change whether it was knock, no knock, bodycams or not. Walker would have still pulled his gun and shoot them because he was and is a criminal and didn't want to get arrested.ok. Where have you read Walker is a criminal? At one point you said the police weren’t expecting anyone else there but now you’re making it seem like they knew a violent criminal was waiting for them. As a fellow  criminal do you carry a licensed firearm?

Again you say, nothing, absolutely nothing, about the drug dealer who first fired on the police and initiated all of this. That speaks volumes of your bias and agenda. I’ve asked plenty of times to prove he’s a drug dealer. I said they should have shot and killed him as opposed to  B.Taylor. I’ve said if they had body cams they would have concrete proof that he lied about them not announcing themselves. I’ve also said I believe the police announced who they were if they knocked on the door. I said there is a plausible  chance Walker did not hear them identify who they were. What more should I say

You know, I can end this discussion right now. Just answer these two questions and state your reason why. First: Do you believe that the police did not identify themselves clearly and loudly? If you don't think they did then it ends here. I never said they didn’t. Read what I wrote not what you want to believe I’m saying. Ive only argued they didn’t use the best tools they had, which was a no knock warrant. Knocking on the door and waiting 60 seconds gave Walker time to grab and aim his gun. Kicking the door in eliminates that time. If there’s illegal drugs being dealt it’s very safe to assume there will be armed bad guys.  Second: Do you believe that Kenneth Walker was justified in shooting at the officers, and if so, why? I haven’t given thought to this question. Let’s say his story is true, he didn’t know what was happening, the door is kicked in so he starts firing... I don’t think his story is true. But I’m willing to bet at midnight in what I’m assuming is a bad neighborhood, in an apartment where drugs are allegedly being moved from there is a strong possibility he thought this was a stick up and not a raid. If he knowingly fired on cops then I hope he never gets out. As it is he will have to live with getting his girlfriend killed. If he doesn’t use his gun she’s alive today and at worst they suffer the “injustice” of being falsely accused.

Do you think Walker shouldn’t have been allowed to be a gun owner? We talk a big game on here about what we would do if anyone tried to take away our legal right to defend our homes, this guy acts like a getbigger so he should be celebrated here. But we hate blacks.

Let me ask you do you really believe these officers did even a decent job that evening? We know they could have done better.  That was also the decision their department decided after this fiasco.

I never said Taylor was a saint. Depending on what you read she was either a complete low life or struggling young woman trying to overcome her past. I’m sure the truth is in the middle.

Based on her associates she was likely going to die young, so her violent death is not unexpected but it’s fair to say she would be alive today if the police used better judgment when executing the warrant.

[benchmstr]

I have been in law enforcement since I was 19 years old in some capacity. Going to college I was admin records years before I could even obtain a police license.

I have had just about every experience, in damn near any capacity you can think of....including no knocks.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I have been 100% against no know warrants since I started! I have always been a person who can see shit objectively, and if someone barges into my house unannounced in the middle of the night? I’m leaving a pile of bodies and I’m probably dead too.

A lot of people don’t know this but even feds have rules about this shit! I’ve been part of federal task force in this country and the Middle East...feds do not do night time raids unless it’s a exigent hostage situation.

No knock warrants are bad news, and unless it’s a barricaded active shooter, or hostage situation in my opinion you should not do a no knock.

Bench

[benchmstr]

The Louisville police officers involved in Breonna Taylor’s shooting death “knocked and announced” themselves — and did not execute a “no-knock warrant” as previously believed, Kentucky’s attorney general said Wednesday.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/09/23/kentucky-ag-breonna-taylor-cops-knocked-and-announced-themselves/amp/

Yes, but that a whole other problem.

Then in this case you have someone just screaming incoherently at the door while kicking it...it’s just as bad as a no knock. I have been in that situation many times and it’s a fine line between no knock and knock and announce.

Most agencies have polices where you announce via loud speaker and give at least 30 seconds before making entry.

Bench

[robcguns]

Fuck Breonna taylor,fuck George Floyd and fuck the rest of them as well.