No knock warrants

[pellius]

Im Pellius. I think Im an intellectual, I think im owning people when they respond to my posts directed to them!

#owned #iknowallandcantseeoutsideofmyviewpoint

The final thrashing around and death rattle of another defeated Liberal.

[pellius]

wron, you continually called him a drug dealer. Please show me where you said you were wrong

You reading comprehension and memory seems to be sorely lacking.

 

I read in the news, where I get all my information on this case just as you do, that Kenneth Walker was a drug dealer. I just read an article by the Washington Post
titled, Correcting the misinformation about Breanna Taylor; saying that is false. So I take back that accusation. I don't see how it changes anything.[/b]

a package from her ex, remind me of what crime that is?

I never said it was a crime. Classic Liberal. Reading into and embellishing statements to suit their own agenda.

wrong you did the personal attack I responded in kind. I gave an honest opinion, I'm sorry you didn't like it. I hope when you're in a situation where door is kicked in you make it out alive

Nope, show me where I started personal attacks and name calling. You brought up the subject of race and your bias against cops is clearly evident and not a personal attack and name calling. Here's where you broke down, realizing you were exposed and all your arguments countered and nullified, so you lashed out.

You’re a joke. I can’t read your nonsense anymore. You called Taylor and walker drug dealers but then say you made no judgements towards them? Lol ok.

You make false accusations then try and turn the tables.

I’m a liberal cop hater who wants to defund the police and you’re a sexual deviant who hates blacks, engages in street fights with the mentally ill and homeless but then runs from police  hiding on the bus and thinks cops are above reproach in this case.

BTW, I just earlier TODAY, I described in detail that I was indeed raided and because I went with the program, didn't resist -- let alone shoot at anybody, everything went fine. My case was later dismissed and I was let go without serving time, paying any fine, or any criminal record.

You really have to work on your reading skills, comprehension, and just memory. This is now twice where I had to quote my posts to jog your memory. I mean, it was only hours ago.

wrong. You're the racist liberal.  And a gaslighter. Childish behavior indeed

Oh brother, now you are just melting down throwing anything and hoping that it sticks. Whether people on this board hate me or like me they are laughing at you calling me a liberal. And it's only you that brought up race, like all Liberals do. I never
mentioned it because it wasn't pertinent to the debate.

I know what you are doing even if you don't know yourself. I've been going at it with guys like you on this board for over 15 years. You were the one that engaged me in a debate. You got more and more frustrated and angry as you realize that you were not coming off well. Your anti-cop bias became clearly evident as that was your entire focus. Never once did you mention the very person who caused all this. You even admitted that you just never gave it any thought. Imagine that. Someone shoots at a cop and you never gave that fact any thought or consideration. Defeated, you now resort to name calling and personal attacks. You've witnessed me crush challenger after challenger for years but you vow to yourself that you are going to be different.
You're not going to let Pellius make you look like the delusional bias Liberal that you are. Now you are at the final stages of defeat: limping, dejected, desperate, and humiliated. So now you are just flailing around pointlessly hoping for a way out with some shred of dignity intact.

Everything that needed to be said has already been said. Leave it to others to decide which side of the argument they think is more credible. Don't make me give you anymore of a beating than I already have. Look closely into my eyes. Note my subtle head shake. Just let it end.

[Primemuscle]

I don’t sit around and worry about No Knock warrants because I don’t break the law, nor do I have ties to criminals

Same.

[oldtimer1]

Breonna Taylor was NOT shot while sleeping in her bed, she was awake, in her hallway.  She was NOT an EMT at the time of her death; she was forced to quit YEARS ago, because a dead body was found in a car rented under her name; the victim was an "associate" of her drug dealing boyfriend.  Even though a "no-knock" warrant WAS issued, the officers DID knock.  Her neighbors testified under oath, that the police announced themselves BEFORE trying to enter her apartment.  Her boyfriend shot a cop, BEFORE police fired their first round.  She was STILL aiding and abetting her previous boyfriend's drug dealing operation; she and her car were surveilled delivering drugs to his "trap house" on numerous occasions.  She was STILL stashing his drug money at her house.  Her address was on record as being his current address on bank records.  Her ex-boyfriend blamed her at-the-time boyfriend for her death, NOT the police. 
For the uneducated and willfully ignorant: It was NOT the DA who determined the police officers should not be indicted, it was a GRAND JURY, the most impartial of all arbiters.  Her address and vehicle WERE on the warrant.  The Left and media HAVE been lying to you!  It's unfortunate that she was shot and died, but the police did NOTHING wrong.  If people want to BLM(Burn, Loot, Murder) over the grand jury's decision, apply the law to THEM.  Breonna was involved with, and profiting from drug trafficking.  Blame her, her boyfriend or her ex-boyfriend for her death, NOT the police.
To those offended by the facts and my brutal honesty, F$&@ your feelings. We’ve got a country to save!!

[Primemuscle]

Louisville officials last week settled for $12 million a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Taylor’s family. As part of the settlement, which is the largest in Louisville Police Department history, the city agreed to implement changes to the police department to prevent similar tragedies in the future.

Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was initially charged with attempted murder for shooting officer Mattingly, has filed a civil lawsuit claiming false arrest. The charges against him were later dropped.

Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Glover, who is an alleged drug dealer. Walker, who was Taylor’s boyfriend at the time of her death, has no history of drug-related crimes.

At the time of her death, Taylor was working as an ER tech at both the University of Louisville Health’s Jewish Hospital East and Norton Healthcare.

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/breonna-taylor-debunking-6-myths-bits-misinformation-about-deadly-police-shooting/2RTM6XRS2JG55FI5RLILAS5LJM/

[Deacon Jeschin]

Louisville officials last week settled for $12 million a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Taylor’s family. As part of the settlement, which is the largest in Louisville Police Department history, the city agreed to implement changes to the police department to prevent similar tragedies in the future.

Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was initially charged with attempted murder for shooting officer Mattingly, has filed a civil lawsuit claiming false arrest. The charges against him were later dropped.

Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Glover, who is an alleged drug dealer. Walker, who was Taylor’s boyfriend at the time of her death, has no history of drug-related crimes.

At the time of her death, Taylor was working as an ER tech at both the University of Louisville Health’s Jewish Hospital East and Norton Healthcare.

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/breonna-taylor-debunking-6-myths-bits-misinformation-about-deadly-police-shooting/2RTM6XRS2JG55FI5RLILAS5LJM/

Ha ha.

[pellius]

Louisville officials last week settled for $12 million a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Taylor’s family. As part of the settlement, which is the largest in Louisville Police Department history, the city agreed to implement changes to the police department to prevent similar tragedies in the future.

Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was initially charged with attempted murder for shooting officer Mattingly, has filed a civil lawsuit claiming false arrest. The charges against him were later dropped.

Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Glover, who is an alleged drug dealer. Walker, who was Taylor’s boyfriend at the time of her death, has no history of drug-related crimes.

At the time of her death, Taylor was working as an ER tech at both the University of Louisville Health’s Jewish Hospital East and Norton Healthcare.

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/breonna-taylor-debunking-6-myths-bits-misinformation-about-deadly-police-shooting/2RTM6XRS2JG55FI5RLILAS5LJM/

Because the city settled and paying out with tax-payers money still doesn't say anything about her involvement with drug dealing. Whether she was innocent or guilty she shouldn't have been
shot. But things like this happen in a gun fight. In this current climate, even though nobody argues that shooting her was intentional, the family was going to get something.

Murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person or persons. Nobody believes that Walker planned and ploted to kill anybody. It was a stupid charge. The police were also exonerated although I believe one was charge with reckless endangerment. Shooting indiscriminately in an apartment complex which endangers the neighbors as some bullets did go through the walls and into the next apartment.

So everybody goes home and we have a dead young girl. Things never go well when you resist the police.

[Primemuscle]

Because the city settled and paying out with tax-payers money still doesn't say anything about her involvement with drug dealing. Whether she was innocent or guilty she shouldn't have been
shot. But things like this happen in a gun fight. In this current climate, even though nobody argues that shooting her was intentional, the family was going to get something.

Murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person or persons. Nobody believes that Walker planned and ploted to kill anybody. It was a stupid charge. The police were also exonerated although I believe one was charge with reckless endangerment. Shooting indiscriminately in an apartment complex which endangers the neighbors as some bullets did go through the walls and into the next apartment.

So everybody goes home and we have a dead young girl. Things never go well when you resist the police.

All of what you posted is correct IMO.

Just so you know, that post was in italics because I lifted it, word-for-word, from the FOX 23 news story I cited.

One could read 10 different news stories which will most likely have a different take on what actually transpired. It pretty clear not all the witnesses agree, which is not at all unusual.

What I left out was the claim that the police shot 30 + rounds into the apartment, 6 of which struck Taylor and at least one of which killed her. This seems like 'overkill' to me. The charge of reckless endangerment seems appropriate. Why only one policeman was charged with this seems odd, unless he did all the shooting, which he didn't as best as I know.

[pellius]

All of what you posted is correct IMO.

Just so you know, that post was in italics because I lifted it, word-for-word, from the FOX 23 news story I cited.

One could read 10 different news stories which will most likely have a different take on what actually transpired. It pretty clear not all the witnesses agree, which is not at all unusual.

What I left out was the claim that the police shot 30 + rounds into the apartment, 6 of which struck Taylor and at least one of which killed her. This seems like 'overkill' to me. The charge of reckless endangerment seems appropriate. Why only one policeman was charged with this seems odd, unless he did all the shooting, which he didn't as best as I know.

One thing I want to stress to those who have no experience with firearms is that in a high stress situation you are not counting your shots. You keep firing until you believe the threat is over. When I use to compete in hand gun competitions I was always surprise how fast I emptied my 15 round mag. You empty your mag in seconds. There were three cops there all firing. They had no idea how many shooters there were, only that they were fired upon. None them were paying any attention to how many rounds the others were firing let alone with their own. I know you have said before that they should be trained better. Shoot their leg or shoot the gun out their hand. You should go to a range one day and and shoot a handgun. Even pros that make their living shooting firearms can't do that.

My firearms instructor, who also work in LE and on the SWAT team, once related a story where he had to testify in court regarding a shooting. They asked him why he had to fire 15 rounds.
He replied, "Because that's all the bullets I had in my magazine."

[Al Doggity]

Things never go well when you resist the police.

You've said this in a couple different posts in this thread, but it is not at all clear that's what happened here. Defense provided a witness that claims he did hear the announcement, but there were approx a dozen who say they heard the commotion, but never heard the cops identify themselves. The witness who claims he heard the identification only claimed this after being interviewed 3 times. The stated purpose of a knock and announce is to make parties on the other side of the door aware of their identity to prevent exactly this type of situation. Walker- who reasonably claims to have believed his home was being invaded- fired once, low to the ground as a warning shot. At the very least, this proves he was not preparing for a shoot out with cops. However, in addition to this, it's being reported that internal ballistics reports can't confirm it was Walker's bullet that hit the cop in the thigh, there is a possibility it was "friendly fire."
 
But even beyond that, there were other plain procedural failures. There's question whether the warrant should have been issued at all- knock, no-knock or whatever. The suspicious packages that were allegedly sent to Taylor's address (that were used to secure the warrant) were never confirmed and the post master denied he ever flagged them. The language used on the warrant for Taylor was identical to the other warrants served that night, even though it clearly didn't apply to her. After she was killed, there was no evidence of money or drug paraphernalia found at her apartment.

It's apparently standard practice to have medical personnel on standby, but they were sent away prior to the raid here. When they were finally brought back to the scene, the shot officer was prioritized and Taylor wasn't looked at for approx an hour (even though, admittedly, Taylor was probably already confirmed dead.)

The police were also exonerated although I believe one was charge with reckless endangerment.

There is no evidence that anyone was exonerated. The grand jury proceedings were confidential and the AG has chosen not to release any information or even a statement on it. Because the jury only returned a report on the one officer who was charged with wreckless endangerment, people have speculated that it's because he was the only one who was presented with charges.

And how do you know if they even have bodycams? It's not standard issue for all police departments and these were plains clothes officers. And how would have that change anything? They knocked several times before they broke in then they were shot at. You seem to completely ignore the very pertinent fact that the police were shot at first. Why?

They did have bodycams. The attorney of the cop who was shot leaked selective footage  and says he plans on filing libel/slander suits. The fact that this selective footage leaks AFTER the grand jury verdict re-enforces what a lot of people think about how shady this AG is being with the details of this case.

One thing I want to stress to those who have no experience with firearms is that in a high stress situation you are not counting your shots. You keep firing until you believe the threat is over.

The funny thing is that Walker- whose home was being invaded- shot once.

[Al Doggity]

What's funny? An entire houston family and the dogs were killed around a year ago in a no knock warrant on the wrong fucken house!

It has only been on houston news! Why you ask? Because every officer was black and the family was white!

Bench

Then there's this case too, one of too many. The cops murdered an innocent couple, Dennis Tuttle -a US Navy veteran- and his wife Rhogena Nicholas inside their own home in Houston during a no knock raid. A cop lied to obtain the warrant, no drugs were found and the cops also tampered with evidence.

But of course there were no riots, no looting, no social media hashtags, no t-shirts or graffiti on walls. Why would that be? Possibly this:

I looked this case up, and as suspected,  the killers were expeditiously charged. Y'all always bring up these false equivalency scenarios but leave out arguably the most relevant aspect.

[pellius]

You've said this in a couple different posts in this thread, but it is not at all clear that's what happened here. Defense provided a witness that claims he did hear the announcement, but there were approx a dozen who say they heard the commotion, but never heard the cops identify themselves. The witness who claims he heard the identification only claimed this after being interviewed 3 times. The stated purpose of a knock and announce is to make parties on the other side of the door aware of their identity to prevent exactly this type of situation. Walker- who reasonably claims to have believed his home was being invaded- fired once, low to the ground as a warning shot. At the very least, this proves he was not preparing for a shoot out with cops. However, in addition to this, it's being reported that internal ballistics reports can't confirm it was Walker's bullet that hit the cop in the thigh, there is a possibility it was "friendly fire."
 
But even beyond that, there were other plain procedural failures. There's question whether the warrant should have been issued at all- knock, no-knock or whatever. The suspicious packages that were allegedly sent to Taylor's address (that were used to secure the warrant) were never confirmed and the post master denied he ever flagged them. The language used on the warrant for Taylor was identical to the other warrants served that night, even though it clearly didn't apply to her. After she was killed, there was no evidence of money or drug paraphernalia found at her apartment.

It's apparently standard practice to have medical personnel on standby, but they were sent away prior to the raid here. When they were finally brought back to the scene, the shot officer was prioritized and Taylor wasn't looked at for approx an hour (even though, admittedly, Taylor was probably already confirmed dead.)
There is no evidence that anyone was exonerated. The grand jury proceedings were confidential and the AG has chosen not to release any information or even a statement on it. Because the jury only returned a report on the one officer who was charged with wreckless endangerment, people have speculated that it's because he was the only one who was presented with charges.

They did have bodycams. The attorney of the cop who was shot leaked selective footage  and says he plans on filing libel/slander suits. The fact that this selective footage leaks AFTER the grand jury verdict re-enforces what a lot of people think about how shady this AG is being with the details of this case.


The funny thing is that Walker- whose home was being invaded- shot once.

I believe there was a neighbor that said that they heard them announce themselves. It's possible that the others didn't hear anything because they were asleep. There was an argument and fist fight right in my garage in the middle of the night and I was totally unaware of it because I was asleep. I only found out about when my brother told me how come I never seem to be around when the fists start flying. But we have to honestly asked ourselves what is the probability that the cops issuing a knock-only entry would NOT announce themselves?

As far as whether or not he fired a warning shot we have to go by the word of someone for whom has a vested interest in that detail. Nonetheless, how would the cops know it was a warning shot? The only thing they can be sure of is that they were being shot at. None of this would have happened if Walker didn't shoot at them first.

As to whether or not a raid or investigation was justified, there was a definitely connection between Taylor and the ex-boyfriend drug dealer. I don't think whether or not they should even have been there has ever been an issue so it seems irrelevant at this point or a separate investigation. Resources are precious and I don't think they would just do such a raid just to rack up some over time.

I don't know if you are correct that medical personnel on stand by is standard procedure. There was no medical personnel when I was raided and this included a fully armed SWAT team, six at the front door and others surrounding my house. This was not such a raid as Taylor was consider a soft target and there was only three plain clothes officers armed with their service handguns. They did not expect to get into a gun battle with a young women living alone in an apartment.

Maybe I am not intepretating the news right but it was announced that no cops were charged in the death of Breanna Taylor. One of them was indicted on reckless endangerment but that just means that now it goes to trial. An indictment doesn't determine guilt of innocence.

I didn't know if they had bodycams. That would be great to know because that was one of two of the main reasons that Dave felt it was a horribly executed investigation. To me it wouldn't have changed the outcome but it may shed some light to what really happened. Do you have a link or some tangible evidence that confirms this?

I would hope that if someone was shooting at me that I would be quick enough to smother such an attack with a hail of bullets.

My belief is going by the likelihood of the how such situations play out was that the police announce themselves, Walker panic, and fired a shot. Now it is quite possible that he considered his shot a warning shot. But how would the cops know that, especially since one was hit. It is possible, and maybe even probable, that he felt it was a home invasion led by Taylor's ex who is likely involved with a gang or at least some group of fellow criminals taking revenge on being dumped. But even under the best of circumstances, shedding the best possible light on Walker, what do you expect the cops to do when fired upon?

[pellius]

I looked this case up, and as suspected,  the killers were expeditiously charged. Y'all always bring up these false equivalency scenarios but leave out arguably the most relevant aspect.

You're correct here. But "what's funny" is that all the cops involved in the Floyd killing were charged, arrested, and locked up. I'm not sure what will happen to the cops who just stood by, even though they were new and subordinates, but I'm sure they will never work in LE and this will follow them for the rest of their lives. As far as Derek Chavin, he will probably do jail time even though it was determined that Floyd was dying due to a drug overdose but I think that is just speculation, not to say that being pinned to the ground by a knee despite saying he couldn't breath didn't hasten or actually caused his death.

So even though the cops were summarily arrested and are now going through the legal process there still was rioting, looting, and businesses being destroyed.

[Skeletor]

I looked this case up, and as suspected,  the killers were expeditiously charged. Y'all always bring up these false equivalency scenarios but leave out arguably the most relevant aspect.

It took 7 months to "expeditiously" charge the cops in the killing of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas. How long did it take to charge the cops involved in the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor?

[Al Doggity]

I believe there was a neighbor that said that they heard them announce themselves. It's possible that the others didn't hear anything because they were asleep. There was an argument and fist fight right in my garage in the middle of the night and I was totally unaware of it because I was asleep. I only found out about when my brother told me how come I never seem to be around when the fists start flying.

Most of the witness interviews that were taken into account heard the commotion but did not hear any identification. There was a NY Times documentary released earlier this summer that talked to some of her neighbors. All were awake and some were even outside at the time.

But we have to honestly asked ourselves what is the probability that the cops issuing a knock-only entry would NOT announce themselves?

Pretty high, imo. This is a link to a report about how the Louisville Police Department conducts raids (from 2015) and  officers spoken to say that they specifically wait to announce themselves until the first ram to protect themselves and to prevent suspects from destroying evidence. The criminologist who wrote the report observed approx 100 warrants. It's a largely pro-police report. Based on department members' own descriptions of how raids are conducted, I think it's highly probable that the police knocked as a technicality and waited to identify themselves.  The one witness who who claims he heard the police identify themselves said he only heard them identify themselves one time, which would line up.

https://www.valorforblue.org/Documents/Knockingonthedoor-policedecisionpointsinexecutingsearch.pdf

As far as whether or not he fired a warning shot we have to go by the word of someone for whom has a vested interest in that detail. Nonetheless, how would the cops know it was a warning shot? The only thing they can be sure of is that they were being shot at. None of this would have happened if Walker didn't shoot at them first.

Well, the cops have a vested interest in painting a particular picture, as well, but my point wasn't whether or not Walker's version of events should be believed. I was relating the FACTS we have to YOUR statement that this was a case of resisting police that could have easily been avoided if Walker complied. What we do know for a fact is that Walker fired his gun ONCE (the police don't dispute that) and that one of the cops was shot in the leg (with a bullet that may not have been from Walker's gun). All of the FACTS support the idea that he was trying to scare away unidentified intruders with a low shot. It defies logic that if he believed cops were on the other side of the door and wanted to engage in a gunfight, that's how he would have chosen to do it. Based on the facts that even the police admit are true, it defies logic that one low-aimed shot is how he would have chosen to resist arrest.

As to whether or not a raid or investigation was justified, there was a definitely connection between Taylor and the ex-boyfriend drug dealer. I don't think whether or not they should even have been there has ever been an issue so it seems irrelevant at this point or a separate investigation. Resources are precious and I don't think they would just do such a raid just to rack up some over time.

I never said there wasn't a connection, I said the investigation didn't establish Taylor as an accomplice. Glover and Taylor dated and stayed in contact, but that isn't proof that they were criminal co-conspirators. Even if you feel that logically they must have been, law enforcement didn't establish that link. When applying for the warrant, one of the points the cops listed for justification was a suspicious package that was allegedly flagged by the postal inspector to get the warrant, but when that was checked out it turned out to be false. The postal inspector said he never flagged it. The police leaked a memo that implied Taylor was involved in some of Glover's criminal activities , but they later admitted that it was inaccurate and taken out of context. So, yes, they obviously knew each other, but there wasn't an established criminal link between them and it has been debated that the warrant may not have been justified.

I don't know if you are correct that medical personnel on stand by is standard procedure. There was no medical personnel when I was raided and this included a fully armed SWAT team, six at the front door and others surrounding my house. This was not such a raid as Taylor was consider a soft target and there was only three plain clothes officers armed with their service handguns. They did not expect to get into a gun battle with a young women living alone in an apartment.

There were 8-10 officers at involved in Taylor's raid. I'm not claiming to know standard procedure for raids, but multiple outlets reported that there was an ambulance on standby that was dismissed prior to the raid at Taylor's.

Maybe I am not intepretating the news right but it was announced that no cops were charged in the death of Breanna Taylor. One of them was indicted on reckless endangerment but that just means that now it goes to trial. An indictment doesn't determine guilt of innocence.

You are the one that used the word "exonerated". I was quoting you. Just as going to trial does not mean automatic guilt, avoiding it does not mean innocence or exoneration. They were not exonerated. We have no idea if the jury was even allowed to consider charging them. The AG set the parameters and there is speculation (that I consider credible) that he took the possibility of charging  any of them with high level charges off the table.

I didn't know if they had bodycams. That would be great to know because that was one of two of the main reasons that Dave felt it was a horribly executed investigation. To me it wouldn't have changed the outcome but it may shed some light to what really happened. Do you have a link or some tangible evidence that confirms this?

It would have taken less time to google than to ask me for a link.

I would hope that if someone was shooting at me that I would be quick enough to smother such an attack with a hail of bullets.

My belief is going by the likelihood of the how such situations play out was that the police announce themselves, Walker panic, and fired a shot. Now it is quite possible that he considered his shot a warning shot. But how would the cops know that, especially since one was hit. It is possible, and maybe even probable, that he felt it was a home invasion led by Taylor's ex who is likely involved with a gang or at least some group of fellow criminals taking revenge on being dumped. But even under the best of circumstances, shedding the best possible light on Walker, what do you expect the cops to do when fired upon?

The question for me isn't what should they do when they're shot at, but what role did they play in creating a situation where they got shot at and whether or not it was reasonably within their power to have prevented it. Neither Taylor or Walker have criminal records and, given the facts of the shootings, it is unrealistic to think he was trigger happy and wanted to engage in a gunfight.

[Al Doggity]

It took 7 months to "expeditiously" charge the cops in the killing of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas. How long did it take to charge the cops involved in the killing of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor?

Again, significant differences that you seem to be willfully ignoring. For instance, which family member of the Tuttles was arrested as a result of trying to protect their home?

[Joe Pietaro]

Here's a complete breakdown of the case & I have personally been involved in the execution of hundreds of no-knock narcotics search warrants:

[pellius]

Most of the witness interviews that were taken into account heard the commotion but did not hear any identification. There was a NY Times documentary released earlier this summer that talked to some of her neighbors. All were awake and some were even outside at the time.

Pretty high, imo. This is a link to a report about how the Louisville Police Department conducts raids (from 2015) and  officers spoken to say that they specifically wait to announce themselves until the first ram to protect themselves and to prevent suspects from destroying evidence. The criminologist who wrote the report observed approx 100 warrants. It's a largely pro-police report. Based on department members' own descriptions of how raids are conducted, I think it's highly probable that the police knocked as a technicality and waited to identify themselves.  The one witness who who claims he heard the police identify themselves said he only heard them identify themselves one time, which would line up.

https://www.valorforblue.org/Documents/Knockingonthedoor-policedecisionpointsinexecutingsearch.pdf

The scenario you are describing in the second paragraph seems to me to be describing a no-knock warrant. If you really believe that the cops knocked but did not identify themselves then it's simply a matter of credibility. You believe Walker and I believe the cops. If it's a knock-only warrant what incentive would they have in not annoucing themselves? If they wanted the element of surprise they could just went with the no-knock entry on the warrant.


Well, the cops have a vested interest in painting a particular picture, as well, but my point wasn't whether or not Walker's version of events should be believed. I was relating the FACTS we have to YOUR statement that this was a case of resisting police that could have easily been avoided if Walker complied. What we do know for a fact is that Walker fired his gun ONCE (the police don't dispute that) and that one of the cops was shot in the leg (with a bullet that may not have been from Walker's gun). All of the FACTS support the idea that he was trying to scare away unidentified intruders with a low shot. It defies logic that if he believed cops were on the other side of the door and wanted to engage in a gunfight, that's how he would have chosen to do it. Based on the facts that even the police admit are true, it defies logic that one low-aimed shot is how he would have chosen to resist arrest.

I strongly disagree with this. When someone shoots at you and hits you in the leg there is no way you can tell if it was just a warning shot. I remember a case where a robber had a gun pointed at a cashier. The cashier's son was in the stock room and witnessed that and because he was armed he shot the robber. Pointing a guy at someone is no guarantee that he will shoot you but when your life or the life of a loved one is at stake why should you take the risk? He got off. So if you can shoot someone for pointing a gun at you I would think it would be even more so if they actually shot you. Seriously and honestly, what would you have done if you were shot at and you or your partner was hit? Even if it was just one shot?

I never said there wasn't a connection, I said the investigation didn't establish Taylor as an accomplice. Glover and Taylor dated and stayed in contact, but that isn't proof that they were criminal co-conspirators. Even if you feel that logically they must have been, law enforcement didn't establish that link. When applying for the warrant, one of the points the cops listed for justification was a suspicious package that was allegedly flagged by the postal inspector to get the warrant, but when that was checked out it turned out to be false. The postal inspector said he never flagged it. The police leaked a memo that implied Taylor was involved in some of Glover's criminal activities , but they later admitted that it was inaccurate and taken out of context. So, yes, they obviously knew each other, but there wasn't an established criminal link between them and it has been debated that the warrant may not have been justified.
There were 8-10 officers at involved in Taylor's raid. I'm not claiming to know standard procedure for raids, but multiple outlets reported that there was an ambulance on standby that was dismissed prior to the raid at Taylor's.

Isn't that why they were there? Three plainclothes officers armed only with their issued sidearms. To establish what kind of connection there was?

You are the one that used the word "exonerated". I was quoting you. Just as going to trial does not mean automatic guilt, avoiding it does not mean innocence or exoneration. They were not exonerated. We have no idea if the jury was even allowed to consider charging them. The AG set the parameters and there is speculation (that I consider credible) that he took the possibility of charging  any of them with high level charges off the table.

It would have taken less time to google than to ask me for a link.

I did google it. As I understand it, two of the cops were not charged with anything and the one cop is going to be put on trial on reckless endangerment. If that wasn't the case, what were they rioting for?

The question for me isn't what should they do when they're shot at, but what role did they play in creating a situation where they got shot at and whether or not it was reasonably within their power to have prevented it. Neither Taylor or Walker have criminal records and, given the facts of the shootings, it is unrealistic to think he was trigger happy and wanted to engage in a gunfight.

This is again just a simple disagreement and difference in perspective. Whether or not they should have investigated Taylor and whether the cops issued a knock or no-knock warrant still didn't change the fact that they were shot at. Obviously, if they weren't there in the first place or just never enter they wouldn't have been shot at but that's just saying they shouldn't have been performing the duties the were assigned to. It's like saying in a traffic altercation that none of this would have happened if the cop just didn't pull him over for speeding.

[pellius]

Here's a complete breakdown of the case & I have personally been involved in the execution of hundreds of no-knock narcotics search warrants:

This was great especially coming from someone who actually had done this many, many times. A couple of things stood out for me. The fact that Glover listed Taylor's address as his own home address and received all his mail there. Also, the when cops enter a residence they are screaming constantly that they are the police so the notion that they did not identify themselves on a knock-only warrant just doesn't comport with common sense. Like I said, when I was raided they were yelling at the top of their lungs that they were LE.

[Humble Narcissist]

This was great especially coming from someone who actually had done this many, many times. A couple of things stood out for me. The fact that Glover listed Taylor's address as his own home address and received all his mail there. Also, the when cops enter a residence they are screaming constantly that they are the police so the notion that they did not identify themselves on a knock-only warrant just doesn't comport with common sense. Like I said, when I was raided they were yelling at the top of their lungs that they were LE.

Whenever the left trots out these "unjust shootings of innocent black people" you have to wait a few days for the truth to come out.  Michael Brown (hands up don't shoot), Traevon Martin, George Floyd, etc, etc, and on and on it goes.

[Al Doggity]

The scenario you are describing in the second paragraph seems to me to be describing a no-knock warrant. If you really believe that the cops knocked but did not identify themselves then it's simply a matter of credibility. You believe Walker and I believe the cops. If it's a knock-only warrant what incentive would they have in not annoucing themselves? If they wanted the element of surprise they could just went with the no-knock entry on the warrant.

It very clearly says in the report linked that that's the procedure for  knock-and announce warrants and the procedure for no-knock warrants is covered in the following pages. Furthermore, the procedure outlined in my post is LITERALLY knocking and then announcing . In your response to Joe Pietaro, you say it doesn't comport to common sense that the cops weren't screaming at the top of their lungs to identify themselves repeatedly, but even the one witness out of a dozen who claims to have heard an announcement, says he only heard it one time. So if it's truly a matter of credibility, the department members' description of how they've done things in the past and their own witness recollection don't comport to what you say you experienced.

I strongly disagree with this. When someone shoots at you and hits you in the leg there is no way you can tell if it was just a warning shot. I remember a case where a robber had a gun pointed at a cashier. The cashier's son was in the stock room and witnessed that and because he was armed he shot the robber. Pointing a guy at someone is no guarantee that he will shoot you but when your life or the life of a loved one is at stake why should you take the risk? He got off. So if you can shoot someone for pointing a gun at you I would think it would be even more so if they actually shot you. Seriously and honestly, what would you have done if you were shot at and you or your partner was hit? Even if it was just one shot?

And, again, as I very clearly said, I was responding to YOUR post that this whole thing was the result of Walker resisting the police. I never said anything about expecting the police to be psychic. The issue is whether or not their actions contributed to how that night turned out. I'm not sure how I can be clearer on that.

 In the post on this page where you say Walker resisted the police, you also say that when he was charged with attempted murder, it was a stupid charge that was rightfully dropped. So, why would it be stupid to charge him with attempted murder for shooting at police if you think he was resisting arrest? Were you saying that you think another charge would have been more appropriate? My takeaway was that you were saying he reacted reasonably, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant. What charges do you think would have been more appropriate?

(And just to be clear, because obviously I need to repeat this point over and over, whether or not the police thought it was a warning shot is beside the point. The shot was NOT inevitable, whether it was a warning shot or meant to kill. The point is that Walker was in a position where shooting was a reasonable response and he didn't create those circumstances. )

[Al Doggity]

Murder is the premeditated killing of an innocent person or persons. Nobody believes that Walker planned and ploted to kill anybody. It was a stupid charge.

Things never go well when you resist the police.

I just don't get how these two things line up. It seems like you're saying that Walker's reaction was justified, but you also say you don't think his description of why he reacted as he did is credible?

[pellius]

It very clearly says in the report linked that that's the procedure for  knock-and announce warrants and the procedure for no-knock warrants is covered in the following pages. Furthermore, the procedure outlined in my post is LITERALLY knocking and then announcing . In your response to Joe Pietaro, you say it doesn't comport to common sense that the cops weren't screaming at the top of their lungs to identify themselves repeatedly, but even the one witness out of a dozen who claims to have heard an announcement, says he only heard it one time. So if it's truly a matter of credibility, the department members' description of how they've done things in the past and their own witness recollection don't comport to what you say you experienced.

Again. It's who you believe and who you give credibility to and your perspective of LE. I tend more toward to giving the benefit of the doubt to the police. You don't.


And, again, as I very clearly said, I was responding to YOUR post that this whole thing was the result of Walker resisting the police. I never said anything about expecting the police to be psychic. The issue is whether or not their actions contributed to how that night turned out. I'm not sure how I can be clearer on that.

To be precise, I didn't say Walker resisted the police. That would be contingent on him knowing for sure it was the police. I leave open the possibility that he did not. I believe the police but it hasn't been prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. I said this whole thing occurred because Walker fired the first shot.

I believed the police knocked, announce themselves, broke in, and were shot at. If you are knowledgeable with police procedure I would very much like to hear how you would have conducted this raid. But given the absolute worse case scenario as to the planning and execution how else were the police to react after being shot at?

Given how it played out. What do you think the police should be charge with, if anything?

 In the post on this page where you say Walker resisted the police, you also say that when he was charged with attempted murder, it was a stupid charge that was rightfully dropped. So, why would it be stupid to charge him with attempted murder for shooting at police if you think he was resisting arrest? Were you saying that you think another charge would have been more appropriate? My takeaway was that you were saying he reacted reasonably, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant. What charges do you think would have been more appropriate?

You can resist an arrest without intending to murder the police. And, again, murder has to be premeditated. What I think he should be charge with? Again, that depends if we believe him or the police as to whether or not they announce themselves. I just read, after our previous exchange, that the lone witness who claimed the police announce themselves has not recanted.
I don't know the circumstances as to why he now recants his story or why he lied in the first place but I consider this very, very bad news for the police. That being the case then Walker was justified in defending himself. But even in that scenario, the police were justified as well.

Other than the one police that has been charged with reckless endangerment which is now a separate issue. Everyone goes home and it's just another very tragic incident.

(And just to be clear, because obviously I need to repeat this point over and over, whether or not the police thought it was a warning shot is beside the point. The shot was NOT inevitable, whether it was a warning shot or meant to kill. The point is that Walker was in a position where shooting was a reasonable response and he didn't create those circumstances. )

As I pretty much answered this in my previous post I'll just repeat for the sake of the continuity of the format you prefer that if the police did not announce themselves then Walker acted in self-defense.

[pellius]

I just don't get how these two things line up. It seems like you're saying that Walker's reaction was justified, but you also say you don't think his description of why he reacted as he did is credible?

When I say "Things never go well when you resist the police" I mean it as a general blanket statement. If the police didn't announce themselves, and I don't know why they wouldn't but I can't deny evidence even if it goes against my inherent bias I have in favor of the police, and the fact that the were in plainclothes; then now, in light of new evidence, it is now more reasonable to assume that Walker acted in self-defense.

You said that they infact wore bodycams. This incident is really not big news in here Hawaii. I haven't done any deep investigation into this case. If they wore bodycams it should be easy to determine whether they announce themselves or not and should be big news. Upon further consideration, meaning as I am writing this, if it can be prove that they did not announce themselves then the officers should be charged. With what specifically I do not know at present.

[Al Doggity]

To be precise, I didn't say Walker resisted the police. That would be contingent on him knowing for sure it was the police. I leave open the possibility that he did not. I believe the police but it hasn't been prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. I said this whole thing occurred because Walker fired the first shot.

You referred to him (or at least the cause of the events of that night) as resisting arrest in multiple other posts. I guess you can say that you didn't use the exact words "Walker resisted arrest", but why would you say that these things happen because of resisting arrest over the course of several posts when discussing this case?

You earlier in this thread:

Why isn't it obvious to everyone that whenever we have these kinds of incidences they all have one thing in common -- they resisted the police. Just get with the program and take it to court if you think something was done wrong. It is never ever going to end well when you get into an altercation with a cop. Never.

And, no, this isn't me harping on a minor detail. Walker being justified in shooting and the shooting being a sign of resisting arrest are completely contradictory ideas. I don't think they can rationally be squared.

You can resist an arrest without intending to murder the police.

Can you SHOOT someone without intending to murder them or seriously harm them? This is some Olympic-level cognitive dissonance.

What I think he should be charge with? Again, that depends if we believe him or the police as to whether or not they announce themselves.

You plainly said in your last post that you believed the cops and err on giving cops the benefit of the doubt.More than once in the same post.. Okay, so depending on the facts you believed when you made the statement that the charges against Walker were stupid and should have been dropped, what should have happened? Based on what you believed when you made that statement, did it make sense to charge him with something else or not charge him at all?


(As an aside, no, this isn't my preferred format. I don't particularly love it, but it is an effective way of responding to a post when you have several points to address. I'll also point out that in previous exchanges with you, I have attempted to pare down long passages by addressing only the points I considered most relevant, and more than once you responded by focusing on the l or 2 points I didn't address, once even starting a separate thread when you didn't feel my response was adequate.)