OLD SCHOOL: TRICEPS SO BIG...

[Body-Buildah]

 

No mention of Vince Basil on there,but some of his Pals, Mike, Ray, Zane, Arnie, etc.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/gold-school-triceps-so-big

[IroNat]

Darden is popping up a lot lately.

Did he publish a new book?

[SGT BARNES]

 from the article...  "Genetics Dictate Reality... Deal With It, and Enjoy Your Life"

true statement. should be followed by the fact that only with the drugs will you find your genetic limits

[oldtimer1]

Darden says HIT and one set to failure is the best way to train then he uses pictures of volume trainers. A bit of hypocrisy.

[The Scott]

I have trained in the H.I.T. way before.  It is brutal and right now I know I wouldn't be able to do it.  I read the article that was linked and think that while  this style can be good, it really only works like it did for Mentzer and others when you take a truckload of steroids.

Of course just about anything works then, just look at Paul Dillett. 

The primary bulk of my personal training over the decades has been volume.  When I do the strictest and final form of Mentzer's H.I.T., I literally cannot move for several minutes.  I am exhausted and so sore that I cannot train for at least a week and even then am still extremely sore.

I've read online that Mentzer's favorite personal routine was the four day split and I liked that one the most but still I would be so freakin' crazy that no one would train with me and so I relied on the rest/pause method to achieve my desire sets and reps.

Mike himself stated that a natural cannot train and expect the same results as someone using steroids. While this is common sense, too many think otherwise and just destroy themselves.   Drop sets are another way of getting around not having a training partner and machines make them easier.

I would get 325 or 350 on my lat pulldown machine and one time loaded it to that and my son helped me do negative close grip palms up pulldowns until I was ready to puke.  Then I took off 50 pounds and continued with his assistance on the positive rep and did as controlled a negative for as many times as I could.  Each time I reached total failure I dropped 50 pounds.  This continued until I could do positive reps myself for as many reps as I could and then came the forced and negative reps. 

One hellish set of close grip palms up pulldowns. Rest and then one set stiff-arm pulldowns to failure with a few forced reps and then immediately to barbell rows to failure.

Collapse on the garage floor in front of the fan and just lay there for minutes.  Then the pec-dec done in the same fashion followed by machine bench presses done the same way.   Collapse and when I could get up I was finished for the day. 

I think this would take about 15 or 20 minutes.  I trained delts and arms the same way after resting a day between.   Since I am a gimp, I could no longer do my legs but when I could it was great fun as that was my favorite group of exercises.

But no steroids to aid in recovery and growth meant even with plenty of rest and food between sessions, I just did NOT get results as quick as I had hoped for.  I was beating the crap out of myself.    I like the Mentzer 4 day split the best but right now I am doing light weights for up to 10 or 15 sets per body-part. 

As far as triceps go, I think that if you look at the average normal man who doesn't train, his biceps are far bigger than his triceps.  This leads me to believe that while it does look better to have bigger triceps, just because they have three heads and the biceps have two does not mean the triceps are bigger in non-trainers. 

I could be wrong. Again. 

[Rascal full]

I have trained in the H.I.T. way before.  It is brutal and right now I know I wouldn't be able to do it.  I read the article that was linked and think that while  this style can be good, it really only works like it did for Mentzer and others when you take a truckload of steroids.

Of course just about anything works then, just look at Paul Dillett. 

The primary bulk of my personal training over the decades has been volume.  When I do the strictest and final form of Mentzer's H.I.T., I literally cannot move for several minutes.  I am exhausted and so sore that I cannot train for at least a week and even then am still extremely sore.

I've read online that Mentzer's favorite personal routine was the four day split and I liked that one the most but still I would be so freakin' crazy that no one would train with me and so I relied on the rest/pause method to achieve my desire sets and reps.

Mike himself stated that a natural cannot train and expect the same results as someone using steroids. While this is common sense, too many think otherwise and just destroy themselves.   Drop sets are another way of getting around not having a training partner and machines make them easier.

I would get 325 or 350 on my lat pulldown machine and one time loaded it to that and my son helped me do negative close grip palms up pulldowns until I was ready to puke.  Then I took off 50 pounds and continued with his assistance on the positive rep and did as controlled a negative for as many times as I could.  Each time I reached total failure I dropped 50 pounds.  This continued until I could do positive reps myself for as many reps as I could and then came the forced and negative reps. 

One hellish set of close grip palms up pulldowns. Rest and then one set stiff-arm pulldowns to failure with a few forced reps and then immediately to barbell rows to failure.

Collapse on the garage floor in front of the fan and just lay there for minutes.  Then the pec-dec done in the same fashion followed by machine bench presses done the same way.   Collapse and when I could get up I was finished for the day. 

I think this would take about 15 or 20 minutes.  I trained delts and arms the same way after resting a day between.   Since I am a gimp, I could no longer do my legs but when I could it was great fun as that was my favorite group of exercises.

But no steroids to aid in recovery and growth meant even with plenty of rest and food between sessions, I just did NOT get results as quick as I had hoped for.  I was beating the crap out of myself.    I like the Mentzer 4 day split the best but right now I am doing light weights for up to 10 or 15 sets per body-part. 

As far as triceps go, I think that if you look at the average normal man who doesn't train, his biceps are far bigger than his triceps.  This leads me to believe that while it does look better to have bigger triceps, just because they have three heads and the biceps have two does not mean the triceps are bigger in non-trainers. 

I could be wrong. Again. 

Awesome Scott! Like hearing about those training sessions when people went all out. Somedays you just feel great and test yourself to the limit. One time I did a brutal but wonderfully enjoyable workout on the hack squat machine. That day it was magic, the machine felt like it was made for me especially and it became an extension of my body. Up, down, up, down, three sets of progressive overload and then The Daddy! The Daddy of all sets, balls to the wall, eyes closed, legs burning, lungs burning, grimacing with pain but knowing that pain is doing you good, is the reason you came here. To extend that pain as long as possible, going further than you ever have and already feeling elated before you have even finished the set. Grinding out one last rep on wobbly legs then locking the machine back in place.

Glorious weight training my friend. That day I could barely make it to my car as my legs were beyond jelly. Next day, don't even ask. You know the feeling and we are pleased despite the discomfort for we know it will lead to growth and more strength. Love it, we have trained our body to its limits and honed our mind in the process.

[Humble Narcissist]

(S)HIT sucks.

[funk51]

Darden says HIT and one set to failure is the best way to train then he uses pictures of volume trainers. A bit of hypocrisy.

    good point

[Body-Buildah]

(S)HIT sucks.

I dont like it either. But for those that enjoy training that way, good for them. (Every routine works if you enjoy it and put 100% into it).
I have one of Mentzers Heavy-Duty books somewhere, looks more like a Volume workout. They say "one set to failure" but they do 5 sets (or whatever) what they now call "feeder sets" 

Just something to sell to sheep. Sort of like the Crossfit cult. HIT bad-asses. I dont like volume either. (more of a 5x5 person).
Again, do what you love, you will grow. (Especially if you load up on "Tenbologna Sandwiches").

[The Scott]

(S)HIT sucks.

Superb!  That was a great use of the keyboard, brother!    I enjoy a good laugh and the ensuing smile no matter the time of day and your words did just that!

[Never1AShow]

Stopped reading at "One of Eric's best upper-body exercises was the negative-only dip with 130 pounds"  No one does this nonsense.  It's all a sales scam

[Body-Buildah]

Ironman Mag 2003, supposed routine:

Workout 1 (Monday)

Legs
Superset
Leg extensions 1 x 6-8
Leg presses 1 x 6-8
Squats 1 x 6-8
Leg curls 2 x 6-8
Calf raises 2 x 6-8
Toe presses 1 x 6-8

Chest
Superset
Dumbbell flyes or pec deck 1-2 x 6-8
Incline presses 1-2 x 6-8
Dips 2 x 6-8

Triceps
Superset
Pushdowns 1 x 6-8
Dips 1 x 6-8
Lying triceps extensions 2 x 6-8

Workout 2 (Wednesday)

Back
Superset
Nautilus pullovers 2 x 6-8
Close-grip pulldowns 2 x 6-8
Bent-over barbell rows 2 x 6-8

Traps
Superset
Universal machine shrugs 2 x 6-8
Upright rows 2 x 6-8

Shoulders
Superset
Nautilus laterals 2 x 6-8
Nautilus presses 2 x 6-8
Rear-delt rows 2 x 6-8

Biceps
Standing barbell curls 1 x 6-8
Concentration curls 2 x 6-8

People on boat loads of gear, and who respond to them (PEDS), can grow from this.
Bodybuilding basically boils down to gear response.

[The Scott]

I could not do one negative dip with body weight today after doing ten sets of 5 to 40 reps on tricep pressdowns with 25 lbs.  Embarrassing?  Yeah, it is. I recall doing dips for sets of 5 to 10 reps on parallel bars with a weight stack on it set at a supposed 200 or so lbs.  Around '86 or '87.  Machine weights are doubtless half or less than what they say so it's not impressive at all and everyone in the gym knew it.

It's like the Smith Machine bench press.  It can't even be half what the weights say but it gets the job done without me getting hurt.

[Methyl m1ke]

The only thing that made Yates "blood and guts" any different from others was his constant usage of high intensity techniques. He is more than happy to explain how he trained and that he thinks his system is the cadillac of bodybuilding training. What he ALWAYS leaves out is that his training evolved to the point he needed extreme stimulus to keep making progress
 In my mind HIT is useless for most bodybuilders. It accomplishes nothing and if you arent using gear you actually move backwards. This is due to overtaxing your body and support systems (CNS for example) to the point you have to rest your muscles much longer than whats ideal. The following is scientifically proven your large muscle groups chest quads hams lats traps need 72 hours to repair from a given load. Biceps triceps delts 48 hours calves abs forearms 24. Ideally you want to train most bodyparts twice a week. Lee haney and ronnie coleman trained this way for example.

If you go beating yourself up like yates you will have to wait 6 or 7 days before you can really hit a bodypart again. God forbid you arent on gear and gh or very young it may take longer. Yates whole lufe revolved around bbing he slept 8-9 hours a night plus a nap in the afternoon and he still needed 6 days rest between workouts. So the average person might need 8. Training a muscle every 8 days is not going to get you anywhere. I know, i trained blood and guts for 10 years at least. Compared to the results im seeing now, i feel like that 10 years was basically wasted.

Just my .02$

[Humble Narcissist]

The only thing that made Yates "blood and guts" any different from others was his constant usage of high intensity techniques. He is more than happy to explain how he trained and that he thinks his system is the cadillac of bodybuilding training. What he ALWAYS leaves out is that his training evolved to the point he needed extreme stimulus to keep making progress
 In my mind HIT is useless for most bodybuilders. It accomplishes nothing and if you arent using gear you actually move backwards. This is due to overtaxing your body and support systems (CNS for example) to the point you have to rest your muscles much longer than whats ideal. The following is scientifically proven your large muscle groups chest quads hams lats traps need 72 hours to repair from a given load. Biceps triceps delts 48 hours calves abs forearms 24. Ideally you want to train most bodyparts twice a week. Lee haney and ronnie coleman trained this way for example.

If you go beating yourself up like yates you will have to wait 6 or 7 days before you can really hit a bodypart again. God forbid you arent on gear and gh or very young it may take longer. Yates whole lufe revolved around bbing he slept 8-9 hours a night plus a nap in the afternoon and he still needed 6 days rest between workouts. So the average person might need 8. Training a muscle every 8 days is not going to get you anywhere. I know, i trained blood and guts for 10 years at least. Compared to the results im seeing now, i feel like that 10 years was basically wasted.

Just my .02$

This plus one injury can end your bodybuilding endeavors just like Yates.

[Titus Pullo]

I actually had outstanding results from Heavy Duty as a teenager.  The NPC North Carolina heavyweight and overall winner trained at my gym then, and one day he asked me how old I was.  When I said, "Sixteen," Rodney almost fell off the bench he was sitting on; he couldn't believe it. 

I think he said, "Fuck, son.  You gotta be tearing your boys up.  When are you doing a show?"

Nice guy -- super freaky.  His encouragement meant a lot.

And yeah, I was natural, but given my overall aggression and sex drive, my test levels had to have been off the charts.  I reckon that helped me thrive on most any kind of progressive training.

[Titus Pullo]

Gentlemen,

I don't know that I buy this notion of HIT-style training as necessarily one with injuries at the end of the rainbow.  Given that Dorian's injuries -- and his alone -- are typically cited to promote the connection, that seems like a nasty generalization.  He's one man.  Sample size: population of one.  The man even said he attributed said injuries, at least in large part, to lifting very heavy* when he was heavily depleted; e.g., rowing over four plates up to several weeks out from a show.

*Aside:  I've seen some people claim Doz wasn't "that strong" or words to that end.  Bullshit!  Anyone who can incline press 415 for six slow, strict reps is far from weak.

I digress. 

If you want to talk about injuries, the volume guys have that in spades:

Platz and his biceps tear
Waller with the same
Multi-pec tear champ Levrone, Johnny Fuller, Toney Freeman, Benfatto, et al.
Ronnie and his apparently torn lat and triceps, nevermind his herniated discs
Dickerson:  if one of his biceps weren't torn, they sure looked the part
Jay:  same. 

Injuries are bound to occur, regardless of your training methods, when you're gassed.  Singling out HIT is disingenuous.

[pellius]

Darden says HIT and one set to failure is the best way to train then he uses pictures of volume trainers. A bit of hypocrisy.

Darden also says that you should do full body workouts but the ones he posts are split routines.