expert opinions needed.

[funk51]

VINCE'S CORNER:
STYLES OF TRAINING EFFORT.
The Iron Guru, Vince Gironda, has incorporated different styles of training throughout his career. Lights weights with high reps, Heavy weights with Low reps, Heavy weights with high reps and so on. He came to the conclusion that ultimately using Heavy weights with High reps was the most beneficial for making progress in the Gym.
This conclusion, in my estimation, has two benefits:
1) The feel of heavy weights, besides encouraging muscle growth, makes the bodybuilder feel like he is accomplishing something in his training. The heavy poundages makes the muscle become stronger and stronger as the poundage is increased over time.
The increases in poundage also causes what Vince called Hyper-trophy to the muscles which is something we all strive for in every training session we go through..
2) The Heavy weights with High reps tear down tissues at a faster rate which is needed for muscular size.
With all the different styles of training, the bodybuilder needed to use heavier and heavier weights in order to use progressive resistance training in his workouts, this according to Vince.
I believe Vince was the originator of the phase, Progressive Resistance training.
The other part of the equation is the repetition phase. Higher reps in your training are essential to cause the muscles to pump in order to increase its blood supply to the tissues. The higher the reps the more capillaries are build which in turn feeds the muscle and increases its size. According to Gironda, the added capillaries can increase the muscle beyond its genetic potential.
Another of Vince's particular style of training in his Gym dealt with the Intensity Factor. Less rest between sets, increase in Tempo when working out, pushing yourself to do your workouts faster and faster, and progressive increases in weights was very important to the Iron Guru too.
All of these styles of training had one trait in common: To increase one's Pump, build capillaries to feed the muscles and increase its size.
There were other variables in training that Vince also considered, such as the idea that certain exercises required Maximum Intensity like the Hack squat, Neck Presses, body drag curls etc. While other movements required less intensity like chinning, dipping, Flys etc.
In conclusion, there are many styles of training that Vince Gironda advocated in his Gym. Heavy with low reps, Light with High reps and finally Heavy weights with Heavy reps. Try any one of these to find what works best for you and give Gironda's different training methods a try.
Credits
Vince Gironda.   which works best in your opinion ?

[The Scott]

To me, it was no longer a "heavy" weight if I could do "high reps" until about half way  or so through a high rep set.  I used to tell people that if it is heavy for you, then it is heavy.  For example, I have done a set of 225 lbs. for 100 reps on the squat and another time I did 50 reps with 300 lbs.  The same is true for example, with leg extensions.  I have done 100 non-stop reps with 225 lbs but I broke a leg extension machine after 10 or so reps with 750+ pounds.   I kinda got chewed out for that one by the gym owner.

High rep weights were initially "light" for me but believe me, they got "heavy" about half way or so through the respective sets.  Your strength is, unfortunately, directly related to how strong you are for YOU.  By that I mean what is light for you may be heavy for someone else and vice versa.  I also found that for bench press, anything I could do for at least 20 reps I could do 100 pounds more for a single. My best bench press was only 350 lbs.  and nope, I never did a single max rep on the squat.  It didn't interest me at the time although my power lifting friends would occasionally try to get me to try.

Of course those weights were decades ago.  Getting old and falling off a roof took the wind out of my sails, LOL!

[Methyl m1ke]

Without a doubt heavy weight for reps builds muscle the fastest. I alternate now, each major muscle (quads chest back) gets hit twice a week with an A and B workout. Workout A focuses on strength with reps between 6-8 and sometimes down to 2-4 (squats and deadlifts only) workout B reps are 10-15 but NEVER less than 10 on any set and not really anything over 15. I got the idea from Ronnie and he mentions doing this in his video the older one. Works fantastic. The catch 22 is that you have to train to failure on the high rep days and most cant stomach that. Trust me, its much tougher to truly go to failure with the most you can lift for 12 reps. Its tough. It works but you wont get stronger thus the alternating workouts. I do not go to failure on low rep days.

[The Scott]

Without a doubt heavy weight for reps builds muscle the fastest. I alternate now, each major muscle (quads chest back) gets hit twice a week with an A and B workout. Workout A focuses on strength with reps between 6-8 and sometimes down to 2-4 (squats and deadlifts only) workout B reps are 10-15 but NEVER less than 10 on any set and not really anything over 15. I got the idea from Ronnie and he mentions doing this in his video the older one. Works fantastic. The catch 22 is that you have to train to failure on the high rep days and most cant stomach that. Trust me, its much tougher to truly go to failure with the most you can lift for 12 reps. Its tough. It works but you wont get stronger thus the alternating workouts. I do not go to failure on low rep days.

Excellent routine, sir!  Years ago when I trained with someone we would do something similar every so often. Well done, indeed!

[Mr Anabolic]

To me, it was no longer a "heavy" weight if I could do "high reps" until about half way  or so through a high rep set.  I used to tell people that if it is heavy for you, then it is heavy.  For example, I have done a set of 225 lbs. for 100 reps on the squat and another time I did 50 reps with 300 lbs.  The same is true for example, with leg extensions.  I have done 100 non-stop reps with 225 lbs but I broke a leg extension machine after 10 or so reps with 750+ pounds.   I kinda got chewed out for that one by the gym owner.

Damn impressive Scott.  23 years ago I squatted 225 for 55 reps (at 180lbs) and thought was going to die.

[wes]

I have always used a weight that was as heavy as possible for the reps I was shooting for.........either 3 reps or 15 reps,they made me bust ass to squeeze them out.

Also I have always tried to train with as little rest as possible.

If you and I weighed the same amount and were equally as strong as each other,and it took me 45 minutes to do my workout but it took 2 + 1/2 hours for you to complete the same routine,I trained harder than you since I did the same amount of work in a  much shorter time.

[funk51]

To me, it was no longer a "heavy" weight if I could do "high reps" until about half way  or so through a high rep set.  I used to tell people that if it is heavy for you, then it is heavy.  For example, I have done a set of 225 lbs. for 100 reps on the squat and another time I did 50 reps with 300 lbs.  The same is true for example, with leg extensions.  I have done 100 non-stop reps with 225 lbs but I broke a leg extension machine after 10 or so reps with 750+ pounds.   I kinda got chewed out for that one by the gym owner.

High rep weights were initially "light" for me but believe me, they got "heavy" about half way or so through the respective sets.  Your strength is, unfortunately, directly related to how strong you are for YOU.  By that I mean what is light for you may be heavy for someone else and vice versa.  I also found that for bench press, anything I could do for at least 20 reps I could do 100 pounds more for a single. My best bench press was only 350 lbs.  and nope, I never did a single max rep on the squat.  It didn't interest me at the time although my power lifting friends would occasionally try to get me to try.

Of course those weights were decades ago.  Getting old and falling off a roof took the wind out of my sails, LOL!

   wow, I'll bet you didn't walk right for a week after those high rep squats. the most I ever did was 315 for 27 reps and that destroyed my legs for a good while. I use to do 5 sets of 5 with 275 in the bench press but never did more than 305 for a single.

[Methyl m1ke]

I have always used a weight that was as heavy as possible for the reps I was shooting for.........either 3 reps or 15 reps,they made me bust as to squeeze them out.

Also I have always tried to train with as little rest as possible.

If you and I weighed the same amount and were equally as strong as each other,and it took me 45 minutes to do my workout but it took 2 + 1/2 hours for you to complete the same routine,I trained harder than you since I did the same amount of work in a  much shorter time.

You could argue that you trained harder but does that directly equate to more muscle gained?

[funk51]

I have always used a weight that was as heavy as possible for the reps I was shooting for.........either 3 reps or 15 reps,they made me bust as to squeeze them out.

Also I have always tried to train with as little rest as possible.

If you and I weighed the same amount and were equally as strong as each other,and it took me 45 minutes to do my workout but it took 2 + 1/2 hours for you to complete the same routine, I trained harder than you since I did the same amount of work in a  much shorter time.

                  sort of time under tension and duration of workout = intensity.

[funk51]

You could argue that you trained harder but does that directly equate to more muscle gained?

   another variable would be exercise form. strict or more cheating.

[Humble Narcissist]

You could argue that you trained harder but does that directly equate to more muscle gained?

Good question.  The answer is no.

[oldtimer1]

No one can continue to get stronger by adding weight. If we did we would all be doing 250lbs curls. Heavy weights and training to failure is not the magic bullet. If it was Olympic lifters would have enormous thighs. No one can  keep adding weight to their exercises.  If you started at 18 and are now 30 I think you have a pretty good idea of what weight you can lift.

I think muscular growth for lack of a better definition is through gaining in muscular endurance which shouldn't be confused with cardio endurance.  The old argument that started with Arthur Jones of the two training protocols. What is better for bicep growth. One set to failure of bicep curls done once a week or even every 9 days or doing 5 sets of 10 reps of barbell curls?  If getting stronger was the magic bullet of muscle growth we would all be doing sets of one rep because that's the most intense training you could do.

Truth be told if you were in a gym with so many of these historical champs from the 60's, 70's and early  80's you would think the weights were very light. I know a guy that thought that about Steve Davis. Then he trained with him with the short rests between sets and exercises.  Suddenly the light weight was very heavy.  I heard the same about Chris Dickerson and Danny.  What looked easy wasn't if you tried to keep up especially day after day.  Yes, you can make a light weight heavy by slowing the negative and doing a full range of motion. Tired of guys doing half reps with a huge rep strutting around the gym like they are a tough guy.  Doing half reps with shoulder dumbbell presses with the 80lbs dumbbells isn't that impressive if you are doing half reps. Same with all the exercises. Bodybuilder as a lot are insecure and have to prove their manhood by stroking their ego through half reps and huge weights.

[Humble Narcissist]

No one can continue to get stronger by adding weight. If we did we would all be doing 250lbs curls. Heavy weights and training to failure is not the magic bullet. If it was Olympic lifters would have enormous thighs. No one can  keep adding weight to their exercises.  If you started at 18 and are now 30 I think you have a pretty good idea of what weight you can lift.

I think muscular growth for lack of a better definition is through gaining in muscular endurance which shouldn't be confused with cardio endurance.  The old argument that started with Arthur Jones of the two training protocols. What is better for bicep growth. One set to failure of bicep curls done once a week or even every 9 days or doing 5 sets of 10 reps of barbell curls?  If getting stronger was the magic bullet of muscle growth we would all be doing sets of one rep because that's the most intense training you could do.

Yes, we would all be benching Jupiter.

[funk51]

No one can continue to get stronger by adding weight. If we did we would all be doing 250lbs curls. Heavy weights and training to failure is not the magic bullet. If it was Olympic lifters would have enormous thighs. No one can  keep adding weight to their exercises.  If you started at 18 and are now 30 I think you have a pretty good idea of what weight you can lift.

I think muscular growth for lack of a better definition is through gaining in muscular endurance which shouldn't be confused with cardio endurance.  The old argument that started with Arthur Jones of the two training protocols. What is better for bicep growth. One set to failure of bicep curls done once a week or even every 9 days or doing 5 sets of 10 reps of barbell curls?  If getting stronger was the magic bullet of muscle growth we would all be doing sets of one rep because that's the most intense training you could do.

   that reminds me of the isometric craze at the advent of the steroid era. Hoffman tried to say it was isometrics that was responsible for the York lifters strength gains. dr john ziegler knew better. It sold more racks for him.

[Humble Narcissist]

When I was a teenager I found Bob Hoffman's isometrics book at the library and faithfully trained just like he said for a month or two.  When I went back to lifting I was weaker in every lift.   Bob never told me to take Dianabol in the book.

[oldtimer1]

What would bodybuilding look like without the drug assist?  I  bet it wouldn't exist except for tiny shows in rented VFW halls. It's all bull shit. Even recreational steroid users know how they look without the assist. It's an addictive drug on two fronts. One is ego that they love the praise they get for their temporary  physique, "work" ethic and knowledge. The other addiction is they love the psychological effect of feeling aggressive, confidence and the feeling of well being.  When they go off they feel timid, depressed and nervous. A very big incentive to get back on the horse as soon as possible. Like every drug addiction it ruins lives.  Want to know how much BS the sport is?  Look at the top champs when they retire and quit drugs. It's not  a pretty sight. Some never go off and always take something till they have an enlarged prostate or heart issues.

[Humble Narcissist]

What would bodybuilding look like without the drug assist?  I  bet it wouldn't exist except for tiny shows in rented VFW halls. It's all bull shit. Even recreational steroid users know how they look without the assist. It's an addictive drug on two fronts. One is ego that they love the praise they get for their temporary  physique, "work" ethic and knowledge. The other addiction is they love the psychological effect of feeling aggressive, confidence and the feeling of well being.  When they go off they feel timid, depressed and nervous. A very big incentive to get back on the horse as soon as possible. Like every drug addiction it ruins lives.  Want to know how much BS the sport is?  Look at the top champs when they retire and quit drugs. It's not  a pretty sight. Some never go off and always take something till they have an enlarged prostate or heart issues.

Ever been to a natural show?  The contestants are the smallest people in the building.

[wes]

You could argue that you trained harder but does that directly equate to more muscle gained?

No idea but my intensity level would have been higher.

Gaining ,more muscle would consist of a lot of variables such as genetics,metabolism,nutrition,rest/sleep,etc.

I was just making a point that I have always believed in that intensity means a lot when training.

[Walter Sobchak]

No idea but my intensity level would have been higher.

But you started training before protein was invented, you old ballbag!

Happy Thanksgiving Wes, stay safe and healthy.

[wes]

But you started training before protein was invented, you old ballbag!

Happy Thanksgiving Wes, stay safe and healthy.

LOL   

Enjoy the day brother !!

[Walter Sobchak]

LOL   

Enjoy the day brother !!

No.

🤣

[robcguns]

High reps with heavy weight for me.

Best my shoulders ever got is when doing dB seated shoulder presses with 70s for 70,60,50,40,30.granted I have done 140lb shoulder presses for a few reps but all that did was fuck my lower back and shoulders.so 70s while not that heavy is heavy for the reps I was doing.I believe the same for bis,tris,forearms and traps.

Chest and back for me is a different story reps of 10-20 work best for me.

[Teutonic Knight 1]

   wow, I'll bet you didn't walk right for a week after those high rep squats. the most I ever did was 315 for 27 reps and that destroyed my legs for a good while. I use to do 5 sets of 5 with 275 in the bench press but never did more than 305 for a single.

When was that in 1967 ?.

[The Scott]

   wow, I'll bet you didn't walk right for a week after those high rep squats. the most I ever did was 315 for 27 reps and that destroyed my legs for a good while. I use to do 5 sets of 5 with 275 in the bench press but never did more than 305 for a single.

Two days later was always tough, LOL! 

[The Scott]

Damn impressive Scott.  23 years ago I squatted 225 for 55 reps (at 180lbs) and thought was going to die.

Thank you.  Your weights and reps are equally impressive.  I weighed between 240 and 250 lbs.  My family rceently found some photos of me at approximately 200,  230 and 250 lbs.  I like to think I was big but compared to competitive bodybuilders I was large but not as big as the really good ones.  It took around ten years  of training to reach those numbers and weights.