Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics

[ChristopherA]

Very few pros could quit drugs completely and compete against the top naturals. Gunter and Levrone are perfect examples of this. These guys started juicing early on in their lifting careers, which is why they have no natural foundation and therefore lose all their mass in the offseason. It is simply not true that the best juicers would make the best naturals. John Hansen is an outstanding natural bodybuilder who was only mediocre during his steroid days. He has been clean for 15 years. I doubt Dorian Yates or Lee Haney could compete against him without drugs. They would get their asses handed to them.

Drug users just have to stuff themselves full of protein and do a little heavy training here and there to gain muscle. That's all. It takes many years of hard training to build a quality physique without drugs. "Genetics" is the last fucking thing that makes a natural bodybuilder. Skip La Cour and Jeff Willett have average "genetics" for muscle shape, but are near the top of the natural world because so few people have any natural size to begin with. The "pros" are sorely mistaken if they think it would be a simple matter to compete with any of these guys.

Your last couple of posts were really good Brian.Although I think pros probley do more than a little heavy training as heavy training is easy when you're on.It is funny how all u hear is you need dedication and a foundation of mass before u juice,blah,blah,blah.Most pros were juicin in there teens or within a year of startin training.Real dedication there.Still I do think it probley takes decent genetics do be a pro,probley great stucture more than anything.Thats the problem today,all these new pros have shitty frames.If u wanted to pursue something professionally wouldn't u look at all the variables.OK I have good genetics but my waist is wide and my legs are short(just an example).Do I pursue bodybuilding professionally?NO!Guess nobody accused bodybuilders of being smart though

[ChristopherA]

Personally I maintain that while genetics plays a large role, and likewise gear, maybe even a larger role is the attitude and mindset required to take your body to that 'pro' level.
You could have all the genetics and gear in the world but if you don't have the drive and dedication to achieve the best physique then that will make all the difference.
I mean anyone can take gear in small or moderate dosages and get reasonable gains but I think it takes something 'special' to be able to take massive amounts in spite of your overall health just to be bigger and better than anyone else. Not trying to be smart here either - I have done cycles myself and achieved significant muscle mass but I could never ever contemplate taking some of the amounts that friends have done. I consider I'm a fairly reasonable person but find it hard to relate to this kind of insatiable 'need' to be big at any cost.
Is there any physiological  (obviously there will be psychological factors at play) basis to this kind of adrenaline seeking behaviour? Maybe the top bodybuilders would succeed in many other sports because of the intensity and zeal with which they follow their goals.
I don't know but maybe they have a slightly different brain chemistry to the rest of us.

Awesome point!I have often puzzled about the mindset it takes to get absolutely HUGE.To be able to inject literally several thousands of miligrams of juice every week on top of growth on top of fatburners,etc.Not minding eating bland food,constantly sweating,having red faces,having no social life and just generally being looked at like a wierdo.Don't get me wrong,in a way I admire the "dedication" pros have and am impressed at taking the human body to its limits.But you definately have some kind of complex or defect when your so mesmerized by size that your overall health is second to it.

[gh15]

my friends im going to train right now but i felt the urge to let you know i will make comment about this thread topic later on

[badlad]

I would say this however - Coleman must have some kind of gifted genetic predisposition for amassing muscle. I don't believe that he is Mr Olympia just by virtue of taking more than anybody else, or gear of a better quality than anyone else. I have known guys over the years who subscribed to the 'taking more is better than less' theory and ended up looking like, well, shite. And some guys who took relatively small dosages and looked great.
And those guys that trained hard naturally for years before taking stuff pretty much all still look good now. While those guys who juiced early on just disappeared from view - literally.

[Zeratul-Dark Templar]

I would say this however - Coleman must have some kind of gifted genetic predisposition for amassing muscle. I don't believe that he is Mr Olympia just by virtue of taking more than anybody else, or gear of a better quality than anyone else. I have known guys over the years who subscribed to the 'taking more is better than less' theory and ended up looking like, well, shite. And some guys who took relatively small dosages and looked great.
And those guys that trained hard naturally for years before taking stuff pretty much all still look good now. While those guys who juiced early on just disappeared from view - literally.

Look at some of the subtle signs. Coleman, Gunther, and Cutler have massive hands. The circumference of their fingers is insane, and if you have ever shaken a pro bodybuilder's hand, its very squishy and spongy. There is a correlation between muscularity and finger size, and this is not related to training. The appositional bone growth of the digits is a tell-tale sign of hardcore GH supplementation. So I think its reasonable to assume that they do take more than the average competitor. They have access to the best shit presumably, plenty of it since money and availability will not be an issue, and the most disciplined bros don't dare to fiddle with recreational drugs or accessory shit.

I agree that a massive drug regimen does not guarantee quality muscle mass. But I vehemently disagree with the pros insistence that they are the best due to genetics, not drugs. I can relate to some extent, because I like to attribute my success to various endeavors to my work ethic and talent, not factors such as affirmative-action, favoritism, connections, etc. I suppose the pros are no different, but its arrogant to readily assume that such a niche-market sport would invariably attract the most gifted genetic athletes from across the world. Its really a circus sideshow for insecure men or washed up athletes unable to compete in mainstream sports at a higher level.

Certainly the training, nutrition, legal supplementation, rest, and water are important factors. Combine these 5, and in the absense of gear, you will not build a national level competitor. Once you factor gear into the equation, there is room for marginal error in any one of the other variables. As you know, some pros are taken with the nightlife and don't get adequate rest. Some pros train like parapalegic elderly men. Some pros eat McDonalds, pizza, and pulled pork sandwiches. Yet not a single competitor can get to that level without high quality steroids, despite the fact that they can cut edges on the other variables.

[Zeratul-Dark Templar]

Your last couple of posts were really good Brian.Although I think pros probley do more than a little heavy training as heavy training is easy when you're on.It is funny how all u hear is you need dedication and a foundation of mass before u juice,blah,blah,blah.Most pros were juicin in there teens or within a year of startin training.Real dedication there.Still I do think it probley takes decent genetics do be a pro,probley great stucture more than anything.Thats the problem today,all these new pros have shitty frames.If u wanted to pursue something professionally wouldn't u look at all the variables.OK I have good genetics but my waist is wide and my legs are short(just an example).Do I pursue bodybuilding professionally?NO!Guess nobody accused bodybuilders of being smart though

You are right. It is very easy to train to on gear, and the more direct pros like Craig Titus will readily admit this.
I also agree that a natural base is not necessary. It helps to master the form of the individual exercises and nail down a diet and supplementation plan before one begins a cycle, but implying that you need X lbs of natural muscle is a joke.
I love how naturals like to claim that their muscle is permanent ...
Sure, they won't lose their gains by coming off-cycle, but they can just as easily lose them to basic illness, food poisoning, or a training injury. Natural muscle does come back through muscle memory but it still takes forever, nearly as long as it took to originally put on, and then the overall amount of natural muscle growth is somewhat trivial.

Keep in mind that pros train "heavy", but heavy is so relative its nearly irrelevant. In addition, its difficult to determine what sort of training regimen is truly more intense. Is a Dorian Yate's workout of 1 hardcore set of 6-8 reps w/ additional forced reps and negatives as intense as volume training for an insane number of sets with 25second rest?
Its truly a value judgment. Personally my strength is far better than my endurance, so I would much rather handle a Yates' calibur workout as opposed to a Jay Cutler rapid pace high volume routine. I know many would beg to differ. There is a massive black man in my gym who seriously weighlifts like 3 hours daily with very minimal rest between sets but he would never dare to "max out" or lift heavy enough to where he could only manage a rep range below 10. Then you have cases like Chris Cormier who, as of late, trains his chest exclusively on hammer strength and dumbbell flyes!

Many of the top professionals have major deficiencies with their frames. I think you underestimate their ability to compensate for their flaws. Gunther and Jay, for instance, have waists that are entirely too wide. This is largely genetic though no doubt exacerbated by modern bodybuilding drugs. Though this is a problem, it does not negate them from bodybuilding altogether, they simply have to excentuate their quad sweep and deltoid width.

I hate to say this, but if bodybuilding was based exclusively on genetic potential, every competitor would be black.
I'm even willing to argue that greater than 50% of the population of black males currently in the United States have better genetic potential than competitors like Cicherillo. Pros like Titus echo this sentiment. 99% will never fulfill this genetic potential due to environmental circumstances. Blacks in the inner-cities have to deal with respiratory illness. 50% of black kids in Harlem have chronic respiratory problems due to the pollution. Others will succeed in mainstream sports. Some will end up in jail, others will pursue normal careers and not take exercise as anything other than fitness and leisure.

Bodybuilding is highly opportunistic, similar to golf and tennis. A poor man cannot be a bodybuilder. It takes alot of time and alot of money. Its just like golf, a poor man can't become a champion golfer because the clubs and membership fees are expensive, private lessons are almost always necessary, and there just isn't the opportunity for an individual that is not of financial means to break in. The upper echelon of bodybuilding is somewhat esoteric as well.

[Zeratul-Dark Templar]

Drug users just have to stuff themselves full of protein and do a little heavy training here and there to gain muscle. That's all. It takes many years of hard training to build a quality physique without drugs. "Genetics" is the last fucking thing that makes a natural bodybuilder. Skip La Cour and Jeff Willett have average "genetics" for muscle shape, but are near the top of the natural world because so few people have any natural size to begin with. The "pros" are sorely mistaken if they think it would be a simple matter to compete with any of these guys.

Well said! I love how pro bodybuilders attribute the protein intake to their muscle growth. The protein is necessary to maintain the muscle that they have already built, since muscle cells require nutrients and aminos for obvious reasons like repair. The supplement companies really profit from the previous misconception.

You want muscle?! Eat 300g of quality protein daily and supplement with Nitro-Tech like Jay Cutler!
No, Dr. Heuer, you douche, build a 300lb physique like Jay Cutler and that level of protein intake will be necessary to remain that size. Its not the other way around.
By the way, does anybody else think its f*cking hilarious how Dr. Heuer always wears a stethoscope in the advertisements despite the fact that he is in the laboratory setting and not a clinical one with any patients!? LOL
I didn't know Cell-Tech had a heartbeat.

I agree with the content of your posts entirely Brian.
I think genetics is just a pathetic excuse to downplay the role of drugs in their career.

[ChristopherA]

You are right. It is very easy to train to on gear, and the more direct pros like Craig Titus will readily admit this.
I also agree that a natural base is not necessary. It helps to master the form of the individual exercises and nail down a diet and supplementation plan before one begins a cycle, but implying that you need X lbs of natural muscle is a joke.
I love how naturals like to claim that their muscle is permanent ...
Sure, they won't lose their gains by coming off-cycle, but they can just as easily lose them to basic illness, food poisoning, or a training injury. Natural muscle does come back through muscle memory but it still takes forever, nearly as long as it took to originally put on, and then the overall amount of natural muscle growth is somewhat trivial.

Keep in mind that pros train "heavy", but heavy is so relative its nearly irrelevant. In addition, its difficult to determine what sort of training regimen is truly more intense. Is a Dorian Yate's workout of 1 hardcore set of 6-8 reps w/ additional forced reps and negatives as intense as volume training for an insane number of sets with 25second rest?
Its truly a value judgment. Personally my strength is far better than my endurance, so I would much rather handle a Yates' calibur workout as opposed to a Jay Cutler rapid pace high volume routine. I know many would beg to differ. There is a massive black man in my gym who seriously weighlifts like 3 hours daily with very minimal rest between sets but he would never dare to "max out" or lift heavy enough to where he could only manage a rep range below 10. Then you have cases like Chris Cormier who, as of late, trains his chest exclusively on hammer strength and dumbbell flyes!

Many of the top professionals have major deficiencies with their frames. I think you underestimate their ability to compensate for their flaws. Gunther and Jay, for instance, have waists that are entirely too wide. This is largely genetic though no doubt exacerbated by modern bodybuilding drugs. Though this is a problem, it does not negate them from bodybuilding altogether, they simply have to excentuate their quad sweep and deltoid width.

I hate to say this, but if bodybuilding was based exclusively on genetic potential, every competitor would be black.
I'm even willing to argue that greater than 50% of the population of black males currently in the United States have better genetic potential than competitors like Cicherillo. Pros like Titus echo this sentiment. 99% will never fulfill this genetic potential due to environmental circumstances. Blacks in the inner-cities have to deal with respiratory illness. 50% of black kids in Harlem have chronic respiratory problems due to the pollution. Others will succeed in mainstream sports. Some will end up in jail, others will pursue normal careers and not take exercise as anything other than fitness and leisure.

Bodybuilding is highly opportunistic, similar to golf and tennis. A poor man cannot be a bodybuilder. It takes alot of time and alot of money. Its just like golf, a poor man can't become a champion golfer because the clubs and membership fees are expensive, private lessons are almost always necessary, and there just isn't the opportunity for an individual that is not of financial means to break in. The upper echelon of bodybuilding is somewhat esoteric as well.

[Atomicmike]

I think the best way to see how great a pros genetics is is by comparing them after they retire and how long they are off the drugs.  How much muscle do they really retain and how they stay in shape after. Oh, and of course how long they live.

[suckmymuscle]

Now, we are sure : you are a real IDIOT.

  HA HA HA! Ok, newbie. And your opinion is REALLY important...

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Dingleberry]

Very few pros could quit drugs completely and compete against the top naturals. Gunter and Levrone are perfect examples of this. These guys started juicing early on in their lifting careers, which is why they have no natural foundation and therefore lose all their mass in the offseason. It is simply not true that the best juicers would make the best naturals. John Hansen is an outstanding natural bodybuilder who was only mediocre during his steroid days. He has been clean for 15 years. I doubt Dorian Yates or Lee Haney could compete against him without drugs. They would get their asses handed to them.

Drug users just have to stuff themselves full of protein and do a little heavy training here and there to gain muscle. That's all. It takes many years of hard training to build a quality physique without drugs. "Genetics" is the last fucking thing that makes a natural bodybuilder. Skip La Cour and Jeff Willett have average "genetics" for muscle shape, but are near the top of the natural world because so few people have any natural size to begin with. The "pros" are sorely mistaken if they think it would be a simple matter to compete with any of these guys.

You're arguing in circles man, we can go back and forth about what pro got off and is better/worse than what natural, etc, etc. In many of those cases, the pro who gets off falls into the "stop working out completely" category, so they can't be used in an sound argument. There's too just many variables.

My point is that the top bb'ers in the world have above average genetics. Yes, many do shitloads of drugs but that doesn't mean they're still not gifted or work hard.

If you took BB1, who had average genetics and put him against BB2, with great genetics. Had them train identically, eat and sleep identically, and gave them exact same drugs, BB2 would look better and be bigger.  This is simple logic, it can't be disputed, and is the point I'm trying to make.

[Cool Black Clyde]

Genetics are the most important factor in bodybuilding, though very few guys have "perfect" genetics.  They're especially important when it comes to muscle insertions.  Genes are the reason Cook will never have much of a chest or abs, but also why he has insane calves, full round arms, stupid wide clavicles and tiny hips.  Cicherillo always had weak hams though he placed extra emphasis on them for 10 years, but he also won the Jr. Nationals at 21 and was 2nd at the USA at 23, and he has ridiculously wide clavicles (and therefore a very wide back and shoulders).  He definitely has above average genetics for bodybuilding (top 10%, though maybe not in the top 1%).  Lee Priest won the Mr. Australia twice as a teen and turned pro at 20 and was virtually as big then as he is now, 13 years later.  He's stated that everyone in his family is short but freaky muscular, most without ever having worked out.  He also contends to barely take any gear and NO GH, and others who've lived with him back this up without much incentive to lie (Paul Dillett, ex-wives...).  Dexter Jackson barely even diets for a show and never does cardio.  That can't just be about drugs, when every other pro has to diet for 14-18 weeks and do 60+ minutes of cardio daily.  And on and on.

Drugs matter a lot, of course, but genes are more important.  They're what separate the pro's from the thousands and thousands of guys doing even more gear, and they're also what separates the guys in the posedown (like Dex) from the guys who aren't there (like Mike Morris), who are also often doing much, much more gear.  

[Zeratul-Dark Templar]

If you took BB1, who had average genetics and put him against BB2, with great genetics. Had them train identically, eat and sleep identically, and gave them exact same drugs, BB2 would look better and be bigger.  This is simple logic, it can't be disputed, and is the point I'm trying to make.

Yes, because we know its a perfect world and every professional bodybuilder has equal, unimpeded access to plentiful AAS of equivalent sterility, quality, potency, and concentration.

Of course we also know that every man on the planet is an aspiring bodybuilder actively training to fulfill his pursuit of physical perfection.

Everyone can readily afford 50,000 annually for fresh flounder and steamed vegetables, as well as the requisite break every 2 hours to consume a freshly prepared pound.

Thats it, the top bodybuilders are the pinnacle of human genome perfection.  

You are missing the point of this thread entirely. Of course genetics, ceteris paribus (all other variables equivalent), is an important factor. However, other variables of greater importance are rarely, if ever, identical.

[Zeratul-Dark Templar]

Drugs matter a lot, of course, but genes are more important.  They're what separate the pro's from the thousands and thousands of guys doing even more gear, and they're also what separates the guys in the posedown (like Dex) from the guys who aren't there (like Mike Morris), who are also often doing much, much more gear.

You honestly believe that there are amateur or recreational trainers that take as much AAS as Coleman, Cutler, or Martinez?

You cite Dexter Jackson as an example, but he is known for his lines and proportions, which are genetic.
The initial concern of the thread was sheer muscular development. Jackson's muscular development alone is not sufficient enough for the top tier of bodybuilding (similar to Darrem Charles) so he has to rely on his aesthetics - a fancy word for proportion and symmetry in the absense of major muscularity.

Drugs are more important than genes.
You can take a woman with fantastic genetics and  a man with average or subpar genetics.
Put them on a training program, do not administer any anabolics to either, and the man will prevail.
Invariably.
Why? The man has more testosterone. It is that simple.
The woman may look better aesthetically due to the male's flaws...
... but the man will invariably develop more muscle.

So you have fools like Tom Prince spouting off pretensions of genetic superiority in an attempt to undermine the perceived importance of his anabolic regimen in order to support his 300+lb bodyweight. He is not special. He was an average white guy before he started to train. He wasn't a freak of nature along the same lines of guys like David Boston in college, Tommie Harrison, Reggie Bush, etc. 80% of black men would build more mass than Tom Prince did under comparable circumstances.

Aesthetics are another matter entirely and aesthetics are independent from muscular development. Aesthetics are heavily dependent upon genetic predisposition, but at the same time, modern bodybuilding has demonstrated that a greater quantity of muscle mass can compensate for less than ideal shape, symmetry, and flow.

[rufjunk]

I agree with the main post to a certain extent.

Genetics play an important role as how to how quickly you can grow and gain access to the national spotlight. There are also those with "normal" genetics who still reach a high level status in the industry purely from hard work and dedication.

I think it's tough to judge the role of genetics with Ronnie and Jay. Some people aren't naturally huge when they're young, see Jay, but the second they start lifting they put on massive amounts of muscle, much more than someone else who was doing the same rep scheme. Tom Prince was supposedly like this, I have a friend who has good genetics and his strength increases faster than mine.

Either way, I won't ignore the role genetics play but it's understandable how one can be frusterated when others state it's the primary reason why someone's a pro. I think you can overcome anything through persistance, even with average genetics.

"It's not how fast you get there but how far you go"

While your friends with great genetics are skyrocketing in strength, your slowly but steadily improving. When they stop, you keep going.

Bodybuilding is a longterm deal, not some 1 year get-quick mass plan.

[Man of Steel]

I've only read about 6 posts on the first page and you noobs should know that Zeratul is an old Getbig poster that used to go by the member name "Overmind".   He's very intelligent, articulate, earned a degree in medicine, but can't stand anyone challenging his posts.   You're welcome to agree with him and add your thoughts, but once he's stated something as true you must never challenge him.....it's an ego thing.   A lot of what he says is true and some is not, but always remember that he feels you are beneath him and arguing with someone with that type of mentality will get you nowhere fast.

[njflex]

great post's ......

[Ursus]

I've only read about 6 posts on the first page and you noobs should know that Zeratul is an old Getbig poster that used to go by the member name "Overmind".   He's very intelligent, articulate, earned a degree in medicine, but can't stand anyone challenging his posts.   You're welcome to agree with him and add your thoughts, but once he's stated something as true you must never challenge him.....it's an ego thing.   A lot of what he says is true and some is not, but always remember that he feels you are beneath him and arguing with someone with that type of mentality will get you nowhere fast.

lol thats true v true indeed

also can neone post the muscle tech ad pics of jay and cormier and kamali if tehre were others also. the ones when they were kids. at 18 jay just looked big and broad not particularly muscular.

i also agree with thin joints comments. u take a kinda heavy stocky tho built 18 yr old and add 100lbs muscle he looks like a ball

[Dingleberry]

Yes, because we know its a perfect world and every professional bodybuilder has equal, unimpeded access to plentiful AAS of equivalent sterility, quality, potency, and concentration.

Of course we also know that every man on the planet is an aspiring bodybuilder actively training to fulfill his pursuit of physical perfection.

Everyone can readily afford 50,000 annually for fresh flounder and steamed vegetables, as well as the requisite break every 2 hours to consume a freshly prepared pound.

Thats it, the top bodybuilders are the pinnacle of human genome perfection. 

You are missing the point of this thread entirely. Of course genetics, ceteris paribus (all other variables equivalent), is an important factor. However, other variables of greater importance are rarely, if ever, identical.

Sorry bro, I'm not missing the point, I'm dead on. You claim that genetics ARE NOT the most important factor and I say they ARE. By your theory, Ronnie would have to take the most drugs and have access to the best nutrition. We’ve all seen guys on much more shit than Ronnie burn out (organ failures, death) years before him. Meanwhile, he’s still alive and healthy, winning the Olympia year after year. Just admit it, his genetics are fantastic.
  You can ramble on about superior fish and such, haha, or men verses women test levels (WTF?) But the point is, it's the genetics are the key. Drugs/training/nutrition are huge, but they don't outweigh good genetics. Without good genetics, no matter how hard you work or what drugs you take, you will not be standing on stage with the top 10. Period.

[HERACLES]

Its obvious when weeing pics of the top bodybuilders from their teens/first competitions that they were special. They had those special genes that favored anabolism, period.

There are MANY folks out there that train, and even diet as har maybe even HARDER then some PROS! But they cant even win a SHOW! And perhaps in some cases they are using as much gear! Because not everyone has the genes to be a Jay Cuter/Ronnie COleman/Levrone/Flex and no Shawn I didnt forget you!.

See my point? There are many PRO BODYBUILDERS out ther eI didnt mention right?  But they arent in the same league as these guys, meaning they just dont got it...GENETICALLY! You KNOW they are TRAINING their balls off, dieting, gear, etc..

SO, next time you or someone else says "WELL IF I DIDNT HAVE TO WORK, AND COULD TRAIN ALL DAY AND EAT AND DO THE GEAR THEY DO, ID LOOK LIKE THAT"  Wake up MORONS NO YOU WOULD NOT!


I cant BELIEVE SOME of you think GENETICS play a small role in being a TOP BODYBUILDER! Thats INSANE!

[LuciusFox]

 It's funny how this Zeratul guy Supports Getbig every time someone disagrees with him

[knny187]

From my perspective, if bodybuilders were the creme de la creme of genetics that they stubbornly insist they are, they would have been real professional athletes. Bodybuilding is sort of an activity turned hobby turned profession that anybody at any level can pick up, whereas with competitive collegiate and professional athletics only the best genetic freaks will be ushered in that direction by discerning coaches and recruiters.

I always liked your threads man....good to see you on.

From my perspective....I agree with you...but not entirely.  I think you're correct in saying that if Pro Bodybuilders had superior "athletic" genetics.....they would possible may have taken the path to a different profession (football, baseball, etc...).  I do believe they have superior genetics in gaining a large amount of muscle on the human frame.  As you stated, most have shorter limbs which does make it a lot easier to had size & volume.

I think gentics plays a huge role in bodybuilding.  Not everyone is born with the same slow & fast twitch muscle fibers.

You can point to training, but the average Division III college football player trains inordinately harder than the average IFBB pro.

I agree but then again....the two have different desired results.  I would not train a Defensive Lineman like a Wide Receiver.  I also wouldn't train a Powerlifter like a Bodybuilder.

Look at Bob Cicherillo. He says you can be "hardcore" training on the Cybex row machine! Give me a f*cking break! There are innumerable athletes who train extraordinarily hard on a regular basis and will never acquire enough muscle to even compete at the National level.

Are you including all the out of shape linemen in the NFL?  I've met some (which I think most people will in one time or another) & I wasn't impressed.  Big & Blocky but I know if I had to go on the ground with them (in a fight), they would be sucking air.  Then again.....a Professional Bodybuilder would probably be worse - lol.

Lastly, it is not a secret that many who become actively involved in bodybuilding have Napoleon complexes. Outstanding physical genetics would never lead to an internal feeling of inferiority or insufficiency to this extent.

I'm not sure about this one.  We all see quite often where Professional athletes in all sports have their issues with self-esteem & a feeling of inferiority.  Then they do something stupid & get caught with a boat load of coke in the Bentley.

Bodybuilders, on average, are shorter and stumpier than usual and not particularly attractive relative to average citizens.

Hey....I'm not ugly!!!!   

In conclusion, I am just stating my opinion and hope to facilitate some discussion on this topic.
I find it extremely cynical that professional bodybuilders who spend 1000s of dollars on pharmaceuticals readily assume that 95% of the population could not build a comparable physique even if they took an equivalent amount of gear. Its an ignorant assumption and its completely unfounded because most are unable or unwilling to take the requisite measures. Even those that are may struggle to find legitimate gear because the market is absolutely flooded with completely counterfeit shit or vet-grade shit that leaves huge, warm, pussy abscesses.

Well, how about people like Lee Priest that say they don't use a lot of gear....just Decca?

[knny187]

Look at some of the subtle signs. Coleman, Gunther, and Cutler have massive hands. The circumference of their fingers is insane, and if you have ever shaken a pro bodybuilder's hand, its very squishy and spongy. There is a correlation between muscularity and finger size, and this is not related to training. The appositional bone growth of the digits is a tell-tale sign of hardcore GH supplementation. So I think its reasonable to assume that they do take more than the average competitor. They have access to the best shit presumably, plenty of it since money and availability will not be an issue, and the most disciplined bros don't dare to fiddle with recreational drugs or accessory shit.

Good points....but explain this...

Back in the 70's.....bodybuilder's like Arnold are the same way, but GH wasn't present back then?

Ever saw Arnolds hands & fingers?  Look at his jaw & forehead.

[Beener]

Ya nerdo whatever the fuck your name is.  All you keep stating is that you cant prove anything about their genetics.

but enough about that, who gives a fuck, you're really just a big nerdo jerk. suckmymuscle was arguing wiht what you said n then you went and were a bitch. honestly you're not one to talk with such a nerdy ass name.

Also, you should so a study about juicin up, i'll be one of your test subjects, but you must pay for the gear

[knny187]

Many of the top professionals have major deficiencies with their frames. I think you underestimate their ability to compensate for their flaws. Gunther and Jay, for instance, have waists that are entirely too wide. This is largely genetic though no doubt exacerbated by modern bodybuilding drugs. Though this is a problem, it does not negate them from bodybuilding altogether, they simply have to excentuate their quad sweep and deltoid width.

Arnold's waist was wide as well.  He just posed in a way to give a smaller appearance.  I would have to say almost every human has a genetic flaw, even your professional athletes.  Look at Barry Bonds...the guy has no calves.

I hate to say this, but if bodybuilding was based exclusively on genetic potential, every competitor would be black.
I'm even willing to argue that greater than 50% of the population of black males currently in the United States have better genetic potential than competitors like Cicherillo. Pros like Titus echo this sentiment. 99% will never fulfill this genetic potential due to environmental circumstances. Blacks in the inner-cities have to deal with respiratory illness. 50% of black kids in Harlem have chronic respiratory problems due to the pollution. Others will succeed in mainstream sports. Some will end up in jail, others will pursue normal careers and not take exercise as anything other than fitness and leisure.

Look a Tiger Woods....the guys a beast.   

Bodybuilding is highly opportunistic, similar to golf and tennis. A poor man cannot be a bodybuilder. It takes alot of time and alot of money. Its just like golf, a poor man can't become a champion golfer because the clubs and membership fees are expensive, private lessons are almost always necessary, and there just isn't the opportunity for an individual that is not of financial means to break in. The upper echelon of bodybuilding is somewhat esoteric as well.

Now thats not true.  Gay for pay will get a lot of guys an opportunity at competitng with an expensive drug routine.

Arnold came from a poor ass family & he had to do what it takes.