Author Topic: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics  (Read 23874 times)

Zeratul-Dark Templar

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I grow tired of bodybuilding publications attributing fast muscle growth to superior genetics in order to avoid mentioning the prevalence and importance of steroids. From my perspective, the outstanding majority of athletes with truly superior genetics do not necessarily get involved with competitive bodybuilding in the first place. Young kids with athletic potential are pushed in the direction of football, basketball, hockey, baseball, track & field, etc (basically all of the mainstream sports that public schools or private academies provide).

From my perspective, if bodybuilders were the creme de la creme of genetics that they stubbornly insist they are, they would have been real professional athletes. Bodybuilding is sort of an activity turned hobby turned profession that anybody at any level can pick up, whereas with competitive collegiate and professional athletics only the best genetic freaks will be ushered in that direction by discerning coaches and recruiters.

To start, I am not impressed with the young photos of Ronnie, Jay, Chris, etc. They were average, relatively lean kids. If you were to take a sampling of the top 10% youth from any public or private academy, they would have easily put Cormier, Cutler, etc. to shame. Don't even get me started on Nasser, Don Youngblood, Cicherillo, etc. before they were involved in the sport. Obviously there are some exceptions (Arnold, arguably Dorian).

I'm not saying genetics play no role. Bodybuilders always cite that each individual will react differently to an AAS regimen, but this is anecdotal at best because only a small majority have seriously dabbled with the concentrations and dosages necessary to build a pro-calibur physique. And come to think of it, when one thinks of how the AAS market is saturated with counterfeit gear, there simply isn't a large enough sample size to draw a conclusion as to how the average Joe would respond on gear compared to Prince, Cicherillo, etc.

Personally, I think genetics is a crock of shit, similar to the bodybuilding eating fraud. You don't eat 400g of protein daily to build muscle. Its the exact opposite correlation. You eat 400g of protein a day to maintain newly hypertrophied muscle. Of course a guy like Ronnie Coleman needs an insane amount of food, he is over 300 freaking pounds of pure muscle! I think the same issue applies to genetics. Bodybuilding is forced to point the finger at something other than steroids for obvious reasons.

The average natural lifter, in his lifetime, will never put on 10% of the muscle a seasoned veteran can put on in a single offseason. People are only so dumb and recognize that stuffing yourself with food will only give you indigestion and eventually make you fat, so voila, he must be a genetic freak to put on so much quality muscle in such a short period of time. Even though the average man will never administer over 40 injections of bodybuilding substances, painkillers, and poisons, hell even if he did, he would not be Ronnie Coleman! (thats the logic apparently).

You can point to training, but the average Division III college football player trains inordinately harder than the average IFBB pro. Look at Bob Cicherillo. He says you can be "hardcore" training on the Cybex row machine! Give me a f*cking break! There are innumerable athletes who train extraordinarily hard on a regular basis and will never acquire enough muscle to even compete at the National level. The only variable that is absolutely unique to professional bodybuilders is their gear regimen, it is that simple. You have football players and average men out there eating boatloads of food, training for hours on end, busting their asses with the heaviest weights they can manage.

Lastly, it is not a secret that many who become actively involved in bodybuilding have Napoleon complexes. Outstanding physical genetics would never lead to an internal feeling of inferiority or insufficiency to this extent.
Bodybuilders, on average, are shorter and stumpier than usual and not particularly attractive relative to average citizens.

In conclusion, I am just stating my opinion and hope to facilitate some discussion on this topic.
I find it extremely cynical that professional bodybuilders who spend 1000s of dollars on pharmaceuticals readily assume that 95% of the population could not build a comparable physique even if they took an equivalent amount of gear. Its an ignorant assumption and its completely unfounded because most are unable or unwilling to take the requisite measures. Even those that are may struggle to find legitimate gear because the market is absolutely flooded with completely counterfeit shit or vet-grade shit that leaves huge, warm, pussy abscesses.

Oliver Klaushof

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 10:24:20 PM »
I agree with the basic premise of your post. There are many people that could potentially be better than Coleman if they had the genetics to be stupid enough to inject enough hormones to kill a horse, combined with the ability to work out constantly like a drone - but I must say "lean" kids end up making the best bodybuilders. It's small joints on a wide frame that look impressive once 100 pounds of muscle is added with the chemical aids. Furthermore, Jay Cutler looked very impressive at 18.
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Zeratul-Dark Templar

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 10:41:44 PM »
I agree with the basic premise of your post. There are many people that could potentially be better than Coleman if they had the genetics to be stupid enough to inject enough hormones to kill a horse, combined with the ability to work out constantly like a drone - but I must say "lean" kids end up making the best bodybuilders. It's small joints on a wide frame that look impressive once 100 pounds of muscle is added with the chemical aids. Furthermore, Jay Cutler looked very impressive at 18.

Goodpoint. I'm not saying that anybody could up and become a pro-bodybuilder with access to the necessary provisions. I'm simply arguing that bodybuilders are nowhere near the apex of the genetic pool as they frequently claim.
No doubt Jay Cutler looked good at 18. He was probably a special case to cite, but still there are droves of students, particularly in California and Florida, that look much better physically. Then you have cases like ex-soccer players Nasser, Ruhl, Gunther who were subpar. Don Youngblood looked like an average fat beer drinker before he got involved. Genetically, Ronnie had biceps early on, but as Greg Merritt even admits, thats about it.

I hate how bodybuilding publications throw in asides like: "Chances are, you don't have the genetics to be Mr. Olympia." "You may try to emulate this routine, but chances are, if you don't have bodybuilder X's genetics, you will be overtraining." Obviously a beginner should not delve headfirst into Arnold's double-split regimen, but attempting to imply that a reader has no chance in an endeavor before they even begin is f*cking appalling, esp. when that reader just paid money for assistance, not some blanket statement that they have no chance. I understand the publication's intentions, and I don't agree with supplying readers with cycles, stacks, etc. but the prevalence of drugs needs to be addressed clearly and explicitly. The publications should not even bother to list genetics as a factor, because its relevance pales in comparison to the grocery list of requisite pharmaceuticals. If you train, eat, and juice like Coleman and you're still not National's material, then it may very well be genetics, but very few will have the desire or opportunity to inject so much artificial oil into their tissues and swallow so many pills of unknown origin. I don't care how informed or educated a user is, at that level the extreme dosages amount to sheer recklessness and stupidity, even if you're an endocrinologist for Christ's sake.

FREAKgeek

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 10:56:28 PM »
I'm simply arguing that bodybuilders are nowhere near the apex of the genetic pool as they frequently claim.

Yes they are regarding the abilty for muscular hypertrophy. Whether or not this is an actual good thing (regarding evolution) is an entirely different argument.


Quote
No doubt Jay Cutler looked good at 18. He was probably a special case to cite, but still there are droves of students, particularly in California and Florida, that look much better physically. Then you have cases like ex-soccer players Nasser, Ruhl, Gunther who were subpar. Don Youngblood looked like an average fat beer drinker before he got involved. Genetically, Ronnie had biceps early on, but as Greg Merritt even admits, thats about it.

It's not only how you initally look, but how you also respond to training and drugs. They are each significant.

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 10:56:42 PM »
So, pro bodybuilders have only average genetics? Oh, really? Then how do you explain that there are tons of guys wishing to turn pro, yet only a few succeed? Money for drugs cannot possibly be an explanation, because they're all originally on a leveled playing field and only those with the best genetics would even get the endorsements, which would allow them to purchase the drugs in the first place.

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Zeratul-Dark Templar

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 11:10:09 PM »
 Ok, the fact that you've chosen, as your username, the name of a character from "Starcraft" speaks eons about you. You don't know shit about genetics, geek-boy. So, pro bodybuilders have only average genetics? Oh, really? Then how do you explain that there are tons of guys wishing to turn pro, yet only a few succeed? Money for drugs cannot possibly be an explanation, because they're all originally on a leveled playing field and only those with the best genetics would even get the endorsements, which would allow them to purchase the drugs in the first place. Go back to jercking-off to drawings of naked elve-girls, nerd boy. ;D

SUCKMYMUSCLE

The "tons of guys wishing to turn pro" is still an exceedingly small sample of the general population.
Money for drugs may not be an issue in your example, but availability, purity, and references certainly are.
You don't provide a defense for why you feel the successful professional bodybuilders also have the best genetics.

It does not cost alot of money to go on a baseline cycle. So in many cases, it is simply a matter of perseverance.
You act as though every bodybuilder started training at the exact same time with the exact same resources.
The endorsements are totally unrelated to genetics. King Kamali and Mike Platz were sponsored by MuscleTech!
The companies sponsor either successful bodybuilders or bodybuilders they predict will soon become successful.
If they don't live up to the expectations, they are dropped, despite the fact that their genetics never changed.

Your response is utterly pointless, your examples are irrelevant, and you disrespect me. Go f*ck yourself.

Zeratul-Dark Templar

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 11:16:54 PM »
Quote
Yes they are regarding the abilty for muscular hypertrophy. Whether or not this is an actual good thing (regarding evolution) is an entirely different argument.

Did you even read anything I said?  ???

It is impossible to determine whether they are the apex because they are on specially-tailored pharmaceutical cycles that the would-be control group (mainstream society) is not on.

Its like injecting 5% of a lab-rat population with anabolic substances, observing their rapid growth relative to their drug-free peers, then concluding in the thesis that these chemically-altered rats have the best genetics to build muscle.

Quote
It's not only how you initally look, but how you also respond to training and drugs. They are each significant

Once again, on what basis can you assume that the current professionals have the best response to training and gear? There is not a large enough sample of the general population, as I stated above.

FREAKgeek

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 11:18:27 PM »
There are hundreds of serious trainees in existence that fit your criteria. It's the same handful of guys (with minor variations) that are top ranked in the world year after year after year. That is statistically significant.
There are MILLIONS of people who lift weights and get nowhere. That is also statistically significant.

Zeratul-Dark Templar

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 11:24:15 PM »
There are hundreds of serious trainees in existence that fit your criteria. It's the same handful of guys (with minor variations) that are top ranked in the world year after year after year. That is statistically significant.
There are MILLIONS of people who lift weights and get nowhere. That is also statistically significant.

Its now clear that you didn't read my initial post...

The handful of guys who are ranked year after year can afford to devote their entire life to bodybuilding. They inject and swallow 1000s of dollars of pharmaceuticals. The millions who are not getting anywhere either: 1) do not cycle at all 2) cycle with counterfeit gear 3) cycle with considerably smaller quantities than the top guys in the world.

Your statement would be valid if, and only if, everybody was administering the same amount of steroids of the same concentration and purity. Otherwise, the only valid reference is what the professionals looked like naturally in their late teens after puberty and the majority of natural growth has taken place, and when you do, you will see that most pro bodybuilders were quite underwhelming young adults from a physical standpoint.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2006, 11:29:28 PM »
The "tons of guys wishing to turn pro" is still an exceedingly small sample of the general population.
Money for drugs may not be an issue in your example, but availability, purity, and references certainly are.
You don't provide a defense for why you feel the successful professional bodybuilders also have the best genetics.

It does not cost alot of money to go on a baseline cycle. So in many cases, it is simply a matter of perseverance.
You act as though every bodybuilder started training at the exact same time with the exact same resources.
The endorsements are totally unrelated to genetics. King Kamali and Mike Platz were sponsored by MuscleTech!
The companies sponsor either successful bodybuilders or bodybuilders they predict will soon become successful.
If they don't live up to the expectations, they are dropped, despite the fact that their genetics never changed.

Your response is utterly pointless, your examples are irrelevant, and you disrespect me. Go f*ck yourself.

  Why are you being such a dick, nerd-boy? Is it because I pointed to the whole board that you're a nerd-boy? Now seriously, your criticism is pathetic. All these guys start from the bottom, so obviously only the ones with the best innate potential get picked by the supplement companies and magazine editors. You don't believe me? Guess what? There is plenty of cheap sauce in Mexico; go there, buy a ton of it and inject it up your ass(I know you'll like that). If it's all about the drugs, then in six months you should be as big as Ronnie and become Mr.O. If not, then shut the f**k up. >:( ::)

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2006, 11:35:46 PM »
It is impossible to determine whether they are the apex because they are on specially-tailored pharmaceutical cycles that the would-be control group (mainstream society) is not on.

Your title says pro bodybuilders have "average /below-average genetics."  Now you say we can't know their genetics.

I think it's reasonable to assume guys like Cutler (pro at 23), Coleman (college football player, freak a year after taking up bodybuilding), Cormier (pro at 25), Shawn Ray (pro at 21), Phil Heath (pro at 25 after 2 years of training) and many more are genetically blessed to gain muscle.  They didn't have time to do much juicing before they blew up. Looking at photos of them as teenagers proves nothing, as virtually no teens look freaky big (note how small the Teen Nationals winner is each year).  As pointed out, Cutler was freaky big as a teen though.

I will agree that there are undoubtedly guys who have better genetics for gaining muscle who are currently in the NFL or other pro sports (or they took up other sports and never made it pro, but also never competed as bodybuilders).  Maybe Barry Bonds could've been bigger than Coleman with a lot more years of training, eating and, yes, drugging.  But that doesn't mean the top pro's aren't also genetically blessed.  Most of them are -- with a few exceptions.

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2006, 11:37:10 PM »
Its now clear that you didn't read my initial post...

The handful of guys who are ranked year after year can afford to devote their entire life to bodybuilding. They inject and swallow 1000s of dollars of pharmaceuticals. The millions who are not getting anywhere either: 1) do not cycle at all 2) cycle with counterfeit gear 3) cycle with considerably smaller quantities than the top guys in the world.

Insignificant.
You rise to the top because you have the genes. You do not need an inordinate amount of money and drugs. Yes, you eventually will but that is AFTER the fact that you've established that you are gifted in this sport.

Dingleberry

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2006, 11:42:02 PM »
I agree 100% that the top bodybuilders are there because of great genetics. Sure, enough gear will make anyone big, but not at the same level as others.
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Zeratul-Dark Templar

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2006, 11:42:11 PM »
 Why are you being such a dick, nerd-boy? Is it because I pointed to the whole board that you're a nerd-boy? Now seriosuly, your criticism is pathetic. All these guys start from the bottom, so obviously only the ones with the best innate potential get picked by the supplement companies and magazine editors. You don;t believe me? Guess what? There is plenty of cheap sauce in Mexico; go there, buy a ton of it and inject it up your ass(I know you'll like that). If it's all about the drugs, then in six months you should be as big as Ronnie and become Mr.O. If not, then shut the f**k up. >:( ::)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

You are an idiot ... you re-worded that tired old argument from your previous post.
I never implied that Ronnie Coleman became Mr. Olympia in 6 months. He has obviously been at it for quite some time and has run an inordinate number of cycles. You are a perfect example of an asshat running his mouth off.
I never claimed I could be Mr. Olympia, but on the same note, you have no right to claim that I could never be.
I haven't taken cycles of Coleman's magnitude for half of my life, so the eventual outcome would be uncertain.
He has a completely different biochemical profile so its futile to even begin to compare. Its the equivalent of comparing a male construction worker with a natural female who trains with weights 3 times a week.

They all come from the bottom? Bullshit ... each athlete is subject to a different set of circumstances.
King Kamali was afforded the ability to live at home while he prepared for his career. That is obviously significantly different from some of the struggling bodybuilders who lived in a f*cking van outside of Gold's Gym in Venice during Haney's era. I already addressed your stupid supplement endorsement argument that you reitterated again.

Mexican gear is not preferential. A great deal of it is counterfeit or vet-grade. QV is particularly shitty and drug dealers like to sell it to young men who don't know any better. Obtaining high quality gear from a reputable source isn't just as easy as walking into f*cking walmart or going south of the border. It takes not only $$, but connections and references. I could call Dave Palumbo right now and he would tell me exactly what I need to take but would not dare to list a source.

I am going to bed. I will address your next post (likely the same shit from the past 2 reworded again) tomorrow.

Oneboss1Rock

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2006, 11:42:44 PM »
  Why are you being such a dick, nerd-boy? Is it because I pointed to the whole board that you're a nerd-boy? Now seriously, your criticism is pathetic. All these guys start from the bottom, so obviously only the ones with the best innate potential get picked by the supplement companies and magazine editors. You don't believe me? Guess what? There is plenty of cheap sauce in Mexico; go there, buy a ton of it and inject it up your ass(I know you'll like that). If it's all about the drugs, then in six months you should be as big as Ronnie and become Mr.O. If not, then shut the f**k up. >:( ::)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Well said, I work at L.A. Fitness, that gym is jam packed with people trying to get "HUGE", yet hardly any of them get over 220 lbs with a good looking physique, that's just one gym out of the hundreds and hundreds of gyms in California.  Ever thought of how many gyms are filled with people wanting to get "HUGE" in the United States?  Yet what do you see in the magazines?  The same people, Gustavo, Coleman, Lee Priest ETC ETC.  Why did these guys make it?  Wasn't just the steroids, but it's an ultimate willpower, to withstand years and  years of training to finally get to the point they're at now and become a sucess. 

FREAKgeek

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2006, 11:51:06 PM »
They all come from the bottom? Bullshit ... each athlete is subject to a different set of circumstances.
King Kamali was afforded the ability to live at home while he prepared for his career. That is obviously significantly different from some of the struggling bodybuilders who lived in a f*cking van outside of Gold's Gym in Venice during Haney's era. I already addressed your stupid supplement endorsement argument that you reitterated again.

Mexican gear is not preferential. A great deal of it is counterfeit or vet-grade. QV is particularly shitty and drug dealers like to sell it to young men who don't know any better. Obtaining high quality gear from a reputable source isn't just as easy as walking into f*cking walmart or going south of the border. It takes not only $$, but connections and references. I could call Dave Palumbo right now and he would tell me exactly what I need to take but would not dare to list a source.

  The top guys in this sport are not being edged out because of guys not getting access to gyms or being denied quality drugs. You're splitting hairs here.


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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2006, 11:54:42 PM »

I am going to bed. I will address your next post (likely the same shit from the past 2 reworded again) tomorrow.

I know your ass is tossing and turning in bed as I type this, all worked up and shit. HAHA
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brianX

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2006, 12:00:03 AM »
It matters what you mean by "genetics". Most top-level bodybuilders have very impressive muscle shape and structure, both of which are genetically determined. They also have the metabolism to gain muscle without putting on too much fat, assuming they eat anough. They are not naturally huge or strong people. Arnold and Lou looked pretty lanky before juicing and lifting weights. At the same time, I get the feeling that some bodybuilders are great athletes who were too short to compete in team sports like football.

But still, it is funny to hear these primadonna bodybuilders talk about their "superior genetics" for building muscle. Take away the drugs, and they look no better than a million other naturals who train and compete. Take away the massive drug cocktails, and their "superior genetics" magically vanish into thin air. Many bodybuilders don't even bother to train when they aren't on the sauce, because they don't have the patience and work ethic to gain muscle without chemical assistance. That's the unpleasant truth which ALL steroid monkeys will violently deny.
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Dingleberry

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2006, 12:13:00 AM »
It matters what you mean by "genetics". Most top-level bodybuilders have very impressive muscle shape and structure, both of which are genetically determined. They also have the metabolism to gain muscle without putting on too much fat, assuming they eat anough. They are not naturally huge or strong people. Arnold and Lou looked pretty lanky before juicing and lifting weights. At the same time, I get the feeling that some bodybuilders are great athletes who were too short to compete in team sports like football.

But still, it is funny to hear these primadonna bodybuilders talk about their "superior genetics" for building muscle. Take away the drugs, and they look no better than a million other naturals who train and compete. Take away the massive drug cocktails, and their "superior genetics" magically vanish into thin air. Many bodybuilders don't even bother to train when they aren't on the sauce, because they don't have the patience and work ethic to gain muscle without chemical assistance. That's the unpleasant truth that ALL steroid monkeys will violently deny.

Some of what you say is true, and I've met people who quit working out when they came off, so I agree with that.  One fact remains though - even if they (Elite BB'ers) got off the drugs and went natural, they would dominate the natural arena. Again, because of their genetics. Drugs do not turn people with poor genetics into elite bodybuilders, period.
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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2006, 12:26:18 AM »
people ronnie coleman was a 15th tier bodybuilder in the 1990s.....its takes alot of time for any pro to mature into a big body...its took big ron a while 2 gain pounds and become big.ronnie coleman in my opinion had average genetics..during his age there were alot of pros who were bigger and thicker than coleman and younger than coleman.........it was through colemans sheer hard work and ofcourse steroids that helped coleman..coleman won his first olympia at the age of 34 when pros such as lee haney and arnold retired at comparatively young age such 32 and 28yrs respectively.so its easy 2 say that coleman was not blessed with good genetics.u can see in his videos that coleman lifts hard and heavy 2 make his body grow.dick heads like flex wheeler and cormier were genetically blessed.sad that they still sucked in my eyes.even paul dillett who lifted quite moderate weights grew into a freak..i always like big paul but he could have had been even bigger if he wanted 2....he had one of the best genetics of all.when people asked paul y his calves were so huge and he only trained them pre-contest and paul replied 'ask my mom',she gave me these calves........
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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2006, 12:42:08 AM »
people ronnie coleman was a 15th tier bodybuilder in the 1990s.....its takes alot of time for any pro to mature into a big body...its took big ron a while 2 gain pounds and become big.ronnie coleman in my opinion had average genetics..during his age there were alot of pros who were bigger and thicker than coleman and younger than coleman.........it was through colemans sheer hard work and ofcourse steroids that helped coleman..coleman won his first olympia at the age of 34 when pros such as lee haney and arnold retired at comparatively young age such 32 and 28yrs respectively.so its easy 2 say that coleman was not blessed with good genetics.u can see in his videos that coleman lifts hard and heavy 2 make his body grow.dick heads like flex wheeler and cormier were genetically blessed.sad that they still sucked in my eyes.even paul dillett who lifted quite moderate weights grew into a freak..i always like big paul but he could have had been even bigger if he wanted 2....he had one of the best genetics of all.when people asked paul y his calves were so huge and he only trained them pre-contest and paul replied 'ask my mom',she gave me these calves........

Ronnie Coleman average genetics?!! HAHA. Come on. It's true he's on top because he busts his ass but he looked better than a lot of juicers when he was still natural. When it comes to his age, you have to take into account he got much later start at BB than many of his peers.



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suckmymuscle

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2006, 12:54:09 AM »
You are an idiot ... you re-worded that tired old argument from your previous post.
I never implied that Ronnie Coleman became Mr. Olympia in 6 months. He has obviously been at it for quite some time and has run an inordinate number of cycles. You are a perfect example of an asshat running his mouth off.
I never claimed I could be Mr. Olympia, but on the same note, you have no right to claim that I could never be.
I haven't taken cycles of Coleman's magnitude for half of my life, so the eventual outcome would be uncertain.
He has a completely different biochemical profile so its futile to even begin to compare. Its the equivalent of comparing a male construction worker with a natural female who trains with weights 3 times a week.

They all come from the bottom? Bullshit ... each athlete is subject to a different set of circumstances.
King Kamali was afforded the ability to live at home while he prepared for his career. That is obviously significantly different from some of the struggling bodybuilders who lived in a f*cking van outside of Gold's Gym in Venice during Haney's era. I already addressed your stupid supplement endorsement argument that you reitterated again.

Mexican gear is not preferential. A great deal of it is counterfeit or vet-grade. QV is particularly shitty and drug dealers like to sell it to young men who don't know any better. Obtaining high quality gear from a reputable source isn't just as easy as walking into f*cking walmart or going south of the border. It takes not only $$, but connections and references. I could call Dave Palumbo right now and he would tell me exactly what I need to take but would not dare to list a source.

I am going to bed. I will address your next post (likely the same shit from the past 2 reworded again) tomorrow.

  The fact, moron, is that your entire post is non-sensical. Think about it:if being aprobodybuilder were so easy, if all it took were injections, then we;d have tons of pros around. The fact that IFBB pros number slightly more than 100 doesen't tell you something? You could argue that pro bodybuilding is not as attractive as pro football or basketball. Fine. Still, a top pro can make U.S$100000.00 a year, if he lays it right. For many people, that's a LOT of money. So, where's the millions of pros. I mean, being a pro bodybuilder may not be great, but it's still better than being a shoe salesman. Right...?

SUCKMYMUSCLE

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2006, 12:57:33 AM »
Very few pros could quit drugs completely and compete against the top naturals. Gunter and Levrone are perfect examples of this. These guys started juicing early on in their lifting careers, which is why they have no natural foundation and therefore lose all their mass in the offseason. It is simply not true that the best juicers would make the best naturals. John Hansen is an outstanding natural bodybuilder who was only mediocre during his steroid days. He has been clean for 15 years. I doubt Dorian Yates or Lee Haney could compete against him without drugs. They would get their asses handed to them.

Drug users just have to stuff themselves full of protein and do a little heavy training here and there to gain muscle. That's all. It takes many years of hard training to build a quality physique without drugs. "Genetics" is the last fucking thing that makes a natural bodybuilder. Skip La Cour and Jeff Willett have average "genetics" for muscle shape, but are near the top of the natural world because so few people have any natural size to begin with. The "pros" are sorely mistaken if they think it would be a simple matter to compete with any of these guys.
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crc69

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2006, 01:33:30 AM »
  The fact, moron, is that your entire post is non-sensical. Think about it:if being aprobodybuilder were so easy, if all it took were injections, then we;d have tons of pros around

Now, we are sure : you are a real IDIOT.

badlad

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Re: Professional Bodybuilders Have Average / Below-Average Genetics
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2006, 05:57:54 AM »
Personally I maintain that while genetics plays a large role, and likewise gear, maybe even a larger role is the attitude and mindset required to take your body to that 'pro' level.
You could have all the genetics and gear in the world but if you don't have the drive and dedication to achieve the best physique then that will make all the difference.
I mean anyone can take gear in small or moderate dosages and get reasonable gains but I think it takes something 'special' to be able to take massive amounts in spite of your overall health just to be bigger and better than anyone else. Not trying to be smart here either - I have done cycles myself and achieved significant muscle mass but I could never ever contemplate taking some of the amounts that friends have done. I consider I'm a fairly reasonable person but find it hard to relate to this kind of insatiable 'need' to be big at any cost.
Is there any physiological  (obviously there will be psychological factors at play) basis to this kind of adrenaline seeking behaviour? Maybe the top bodybuilders would succeed in many other sports because of the intensity and zeal with which they follow their goals.
I don't know but maybe they have a slightly different brain chemistry to the rest of us.