Gym Etiquette - Was I Wrong Here?

[ChristopherA]

You literally said you were 183lbs starting out this cycle a few pages ago now you want to get to your starting weight? For fuck sake forget about the damn water forget about counting calories and just eat as much as you can the next few weeks. There is water in food. You don't need to be slamming water you need to be eating 4-5k calories minimum. Use water to wash it down. You are not going to put on 20lbs in 2-3 months eating 2500 calories a day that is fucking nonsense. Eat until you want to throw up then keep fucking eating.

4-5K calories?! You're out of your mind

[ChristopherA]

I remember MassiveG on MuscleMayhem said he had previously eaten upwards of 500g of protein daily. That's just silly.

The research seems to be consistent with respect to about 1g protein per 1-lb of LBM per day. So for me, that would be about 145g protein daily. With the increased protein synthesis from gear, I'll strive for 200g daily. I'd rather overshoot that figure than not get enough - but there would be NO REASON for me to go to 300g daily.

If I manage 220g daily on most days, that would be fine.

The magazines sure did sell a complete load of bollocks when it came to the inputs into bodybuilding.

They sure did. The past couple year I'm sure there were days I didn't even break 100grams of protein and I've still never dropped below 200lbs

[ThisisOverload]

You don't need much more than 3k calories to build quality mass. You aren't a very big person, no offense.

Don't let people distract you.

I can gain good size on 3k cals per day.

Eating was the hardest part for me, but you have to build up to it. Slowly increase your calories a little week by week. Don't just stuff your face with junk. It takes time to build actual muscle tissue.

Also, don't be afraid to completely change your workouts. Go for volume for a few months.

I know you think you know everything about your body, but you don't.

It took me almost a decade to change the way i trained and once i did it was insane how much better my workouts got, and certain body parts blew the fuck up (from within).

Literally just try to add another small meal into your diet, even if you don't eat it every day.

Don't get caught up in the "daily" needs, that's just a unit of measure. Your body processes food and nutrients over a longer period than 24 hours. Just try to be consistent. On the weekends i always eat more just because it's easier.

I've been 260 pounds with a 34" waist and i never ate more than 4k calories a day. When i went over 5k cals a day i felt like shit, looked like shit and had serious digestive issues. It's not necessary.

You aren't trying to be Mr O. Just enjoy the ride.

[ThisisOverload]

Add a protein shake or two but be careful because many of those "mass gainers" have a ton of calories and carbs in them that you will just shit out.

1g of protein per pound of BW at a minimum.

I never consumed more than 300g's a day. Most days it's more like 200.

Easy peasy.

[chaos]

Eat big, lift big, get big.

[Matt]

So...

Against my better judgement, I went out with friends on Tuesday night, and had two drinks.  I had one Budweiser tall can on May 28th, and prior to that, I hadn't had a drink of alcohol since May 22nd of last year.

Stupid, stupid. I just dehydrated myself for no reason. Oh, and...it turned out my friend poured at least one shot of vodka into the 7% drink he poured me, so I probably had at least four servings. I didn't even realize that until it seemed like more than two.

That won't happen again - fuck that!

Alcohol is nasty.

That said, I'm still up 5-lb in basically a week now. I'm 188-lb here, and I started at 183-lb.

I don't want to waste this cycle. Any less than 200-lb final progress will be a waste to me. And again - if I'm not consistently at 2,500+ calories [including 200g of protein] + 3L of water daily by Independence Day, I'm cancelling this cycle.

I think I can do it. I'll keep everyone posted.

That's a protein shake with two scoops of Six Star Nutrition chocolate whey powder with 2% milk and orange juice. And that's a 12" BMT on cheese bread from Subway.

And another back shot for good measure. 

[Matt]

They sure did. The past couple year I'm sure there were days I didn't even break 100grams of protein and I've still never dropped below 200lbs

Exactly right, ChristopherA.

As if we need hundreds of grams of protein a day, lol.

I should strive for 200g though. I think the literature is pretty clear on our ability to synthesize 1g of protein per 1-lb of LBM daily.

Aiming for 200g daily protein is just to maximize my extra protein synthesis ability from being on gear.

As for 4-5K calories a day - LOL. No. You're right about that too, ChristopherA. Not happening. I appreciate B. Hank's advice here...but, no.

Keep in mind I average about 1,100 daily. Going to 2,500 daily will work well for me. I'll see about increasing that to 3,000+, but I have to give my body some time to adjust.

My doctor wants me to go up 300, to bring my TSH level down, and get my thyroid fully in the normal range.

Today in the gym, I still made improvements over last week DESPITE having drank alcohol on Tuesday. And THAT'S why I find it so annoying when people downplay gear. Why would I have my best workout this month AFTER having blown my Tuesday rest day? 

Using the same weight as last week on the same exercise, I went from 13 reps to 17. Normally, I only improve by a rep or two a week - sometimes I stay the same, and sometimes, I go down a bit.

Meanwhile, I'm up four reps, despite writing off Tuesday by staying up literally all night, on top of those drinks.  The gear kicking in made all the difference.

...

Anyway - I'm willing to make some bets here.

Who here wants to see me bench press 225x30? That's the Northwestern Ontario record, set in 2012, by that year's Ontario's Strongest Man winner.

Enough with the bullshit about eating clean and employing the Weider Principles.  I'm running gear, and I WILL make progress that would have otherwise been extremely difficult if not IMPOSSIBLE off the sauce.

God, we are a BODYBUILDING MESSAGE BOARD. Enough with downplaying gear! The stuff works - OBVIOUSLY.

Who wants to see a video of me doing 110-lb per hand seated dumbbell presses?

[Matt]

Man, I couldn't even drink that whole blender, and I'm FULL AS FUCK already, G** damnit! 

That's what, just over 800 calories, and I can't even drink it down, after eating 80% of that sub five hours ago. 

Whatever. I'll try to force it down.

In my first cycle in 2004, I did everything right - with the PVL Sustanon 350 I was using being of questionable quality [good Dbol though], and I went from 170 to 187.

I should be able to go to 200+ this time - heck, I could see myself hitting 213 [a total of +30-lb], but I don't want to get too fat.

Since I'm pretty confident about gear quality this time, I could see myself reaching over 200, if I do everything right, nutrition-wise.

Man, am I struggling to eat though. I'll put it this way - 1,800 calories and I'm full. So this week, I'll be shooting for around the 2K mark, and I want to be comfortably around 2,500 before the end of next week.

Then try to creep that up to 3,000+ before Independence Day.

4-5K calories will not be necessary, as ChristopherA said [or not be POSSIBLE, lol].

I've been on under 1,500 calories daily for 18 years now - that won't be some overnight fix. I just want to get that 200g protein in + ~3L of water daily.

This cycle will go well if I can do that.

My training is on point - no worries there. I'm already back to bench pressing 225x15. I'm CONFIDENT that will be 20+ within a month, and if anyone wants to see me hit 30, I'm sure I can do it.

My training is fine. Don't worry, MCWAY - I'll be applying the Weider Principles throughout this cycle. But as for "natural bodybuilding" - pfft. A man of 5'10" can maybe hit, what, 175-lb in contest shape?

Frank Zane was 5'9" and 185-lb at his best. And he wasn't by any means natural.

I much prefer natural strength training. Gaining muscle tissue at a snail's pace while shitting and pissing 3x as often and reducing my systemic health is of no interest to me.

I just want a quick one-off cycle to feel like a mini-bodybuilder for the summer.

Oh - and I got laid on Tuesday night.  That was my 3rd one-night stand. A 27-year-old blonde. When I told her I was 40, she demanded to see my ID. 

A gay Black dude was there too, and said I had the perfect body - and that's why I'm doing this. For the compliments...for the memories...and then go back to my natural body weight - maybe just over 180, with the +300 daily calories my doctor ordered.

No disrespect to large men - but I feel very comfortable as a lightweight. Hey - to each their own.

[Matt]

You don't need much more than 3k calories to build quality mass. You aren't a very big person, no offense.

Hey - you're just telling it like if is. No offense taken!

I just hate when some anonymous dick like "Walter Sobchak" says he warms up with my workout when he a finally works out with my warmup.

I have no issue doing a challenge with him - I'll beat him on every lift, and I'm willing to give him a 70-lb body weight advantage.

I've competed in Strongman contests just one level before the provincial heavyweight level. I have had many workouts with much heavier men. None of whom "warmed up with my workout".

Don't let people distract you.

I can gain good size on 3k cals per day.

Eating was the hardest part for me, but you have to build up to it. Slowly increase your calories a little week by week. Don't just stuff your face with junk. It takes time to build actual muscle tissue.

Also, don't be afraid to completely change your workouts. Go for volume for a few months.

I know you think you know everything about your body, but you don't.

It took me almost a decade to change the way i trained and once i did it was insane how much better my workouts got, and certain body parts blew the fuck up (from within).

Literally just try to add another small meal into your diet, even if you don't eat it every day.

Don't get caught up in the "daily" needs, that's just a unit of measure. Your body processes food and nutrients over a longer period than 24 hours. Just try to be consistent. On the weekends i always eat more just because it's easier.

I've been 260 pounds with a 34" waist and i never ate more than 4k calories a day. When i went over 5k cals a day i felt like shit, looked like shit and had serious digestive issues. It's not necessary.

You aren't trying to be Mr O. Just enjoy the ride.

Thank you. All great advice - and I'm open minded to all good advice.

I do feel I know my body very well - but I'm humble enough to take sound advice where I get it.

Like you - I find eating to be the hardest part. For me, BY FAR. I wish I could train hard for three hours a day, rather than eat more - but...this is bodybuilding, not strength training, for this cycle.

I mentioned the 2012/2014 Ontario's Strongest Man - he was eating ~4,000 calories a day, and he was 285-lb at 5'11.5", and as strong as an ox.

1,100 calories, with maybe 120g protein daily and <1L water is unacceptable though.

That needs to be doubled. Regarding strategy - as you said, incremental changes may be best...but I think if I'm drinking half my calories, I could be at 2,500 within 10 days.

Then increase that gradually to around the 3K mark.

Basically - I just want to hit that 200g protein +3L of water daily.

Protein is obviously the most important macro. And water is essential.

My instinct is always to train in the 1-6 rep range. So today I had to remind myself - HYPERTROPHY ONLY THIS SUMMER/CYCLE.

So I made sure to go up in the rep range - insisting on 8-12+ reps, and I added some drop sets. I focused on controlled repetitions, and it was the second half of my workout that got my all my pump.

Unfortunately, my chest sucks...I don't see it improving much, even on gear. But I think I'll look ok.

Again - I am going to strive every day for that protein and water intake + bodybuilding-style training only.

My training partner is disappointed that I drank alcohol this week, and so am I. I intend to weigh 190 by this weekend. Just gradual improvements.

I always wanted to have a Mark Wahlberg-esque physique, but I suspect he's probably on gear [or has been in the past]. He has amazing genetics though - especially for chest.

If this cycle goes well - maybe I will take up natural bodybuilding. I prefer natural strength training though. Again - to each their own.

[Matt]

Hey, how do I look here? 

[Matt]

@Matt - who oiled you up for this shoot?

What shoot?

The only oiled pictures I took was from back in June, when I started training again [before the gyms closed again.  ].

My friend Serena oiled me up.

She died in February. 

[joswift]

What shoot?

The only oiled pictures I took was from back in June, when I started training again [before the gyms closed again.  ].

My friend Serena oiled me up.

She died in February. 

neglegted the basement feedings?

[Matt]

neglegted the basement feedings?

I wish I knew. 

We have the same doctor - and even he asked me if she had overdosed on Fentanyl. She was only 36.

It was probably drugs, but I don't know for sure.

Lots of the coke here is cut up with Fentanyl. It's been like that in North America for a while now. Damn shame. She was a young woman.

[Matt]

Van Bilderass outed me for steroid use way back in the day, based on my delts being disproportionate to the rest of my body. 

He said it's because the deltoids have more testosterone receptors than other muscle groups.

The area highlighted below [my front delts] are what I find grow disproportionately while on gear.

It's that part that I expect to be visually very different as this cycle continues.

I don't have many strong body parts from a bodybuilding perspective. But I do expect to see my delts blow up quite a bit. I like that - because the shoulders are a very visual part that catch the eye. I'll look better in a tank top, even if my chest still sucks.

I'll still be applying all the tips and tricks given to me by Getbiggers for my chest. I'm sure I'll make some progress, but - chest development just isn't my strong suit.

[IroNat]

Eat big, lift big, get big fat.

[robcguns]

So...

Against my better judgement, I went out with friends on Tuesday night, and had two drinks.  I had one Budweiser tall can on May 28th, and prior to that, I hadn't had a drink of alcohol since May 22nd of last year.

Stupid, stupid. I just dehydrated myself for no reason. Oh, and...it turned out my friend poured at least one shot of vodka into the 7% drink he poured me, so I probably had at least four servings. I didn't even realize that until it seemed like more than two.

That won't happen again - fuck that!

Alcohol is nasty.

That said, I'm still up 5-lb in basically a week now. I'm 188-lb here, and I started at 183-lb.

I don't want to waste this cycle. Any less than 200-lb final progress will be a waste to me. And again - if I'm not consistently at 2,500+ calories [including 200g of protein] + 3L of water daily by Independence Day, I'm cancelling this cycle.

I think I can do it. I'll keep everyone posted.

That's a protein shake with two scoops of Six Star Nutrition chocolate whey powder with 2% milk and orange juice. And that's a 12" BMT on cheese bread from Subway.

And another back shot for good measure. 

Relax Matt, you don’t need to force down 2500 calories and 200 grams of protein. If you usually eat 800-1000 and you up it to 1800 you will gain and no need for that much protein, I rarely take i. More than 125 and couldn’t care less if I get 75. Just eat lift and sleep and you will easily be 200. Just relax and stop overthinking it, it’s not that big of deal. It will happen if you train hard.

[Hulkotron]

I’m a fan of MattC. 

[MCWAY]

Man, I couldn't even drink that whole blender, and I'm FULL AS FUCK already, G** damnit! 

That's what, just over 800 calories, and I can't even drink it down, after eating 80% of that sub five hours ago. 

Whatever. I'll try to force it down.

In my first cycle in 2004, I did everything right - with the PVL Sustanon 350 I was using being of questionable quality [good Dbol though], and I went from 170 to 187.

I should be able to go to 200+ this time - heck, I could see myself hitting 213 [a total of +30-lb], but I don't want to get too fat.

Since I'm pretty confident about gear quality this time, I could see myself reaching over 200, if I do everything right, nutrition-wise.

Man, am I struggling to eat though. I'll put it this way - 1,800 calories and I'm full. So this week, I'll be shooting for around the 2K mark, and I want to be comfortably around 2,500 before the end of next week.

Then try to creep that up to 3,000+ before Independence Day.

4-5K calories will not be necessary, as ChristopherA said [or not be POSSIBLE, lol].

I've been on under 1,500 calories daily for 18 years now - that won't be some overnight fix. I just want to get that 200g protein in + ~3L of water daily.

This cycle will go well if I can do that.

My training is on point - no worries there. I'm already back to bench pressing 225x15. I'm CONFIDENT that will be 20+ within a month, and if anyone wants to see me hit 30, I'm sure I can do it.

My training is fine. Don't worry, MCWAY - I'll be applying the Weider Principles throughout this cycle. But as for "natural bodybuilding" - pfft. A man of 5'10" can maybe hit, what, 175-lb in contest shape?

Frank Zane was 5'9" and 185-lb at his best. And he wasn't by any means natural.

I much prefer natural strength training. Gaining muscle tissue at a snail's pace while shitting and pissing 3x as often and reducing my systemic health is of no interest to me.

Once again, you keep erecting strawman arguments with no basis in facts. Because, one man need steroids to be 5'9", 185-lb, everyone else does as well? PLEASE!!!

Plus, who said anything about abandoning strength training? Quite the opposite, most natural bodybuilders who are fairly big are even stronger than they look. You actually have to be strong to be big without steroids!! WHAT A SHOCKER....said nobody!!

225 x 15 on the flat-bench. Been there; done that!! That started back in 1996. I didn't need steroids to do it; nor did it take me 18 months.

Taking steroids is somehow going to keep you from having to use the bathroom frequently, DESPITE your deliberately increasing your calories? What manner of foolishness is that?

I just want a quick one-off cycle to feel like a mini-bodybuilder for the summer.

Oh - and I got laid on Tuesday night.  That was my 3rd one-night stand. A 27-year-old blonde. When I told her I was 40, she demanded to see my ID. 

A gay Black dude was there too, and said I had the perfect body - and that's why I'm doing this. For the compliments...for the memories...and then go back to my natural body weight - maybe just over 180, with the +300 daily calories my doctor ordered.

No disrespect to large men - but I feel very comfortable as a lightweight. Hey - to each their own.

Yet, you're taking performance-enhancing drugs to get to 215 lbs. Even, when you drop back to 180, that makes you a light-heavyweight, not a lightweight.

Anyway - I'm willing to make some bets here.

Who here wants to see me bench press 225x30? That's the Northwestern Ontario record, set in 2012, by that year's Ontario's Strongest Man winner.

Enough with the bullshit about eating clean and employing the Weider Principles.  I'm running gear, and I WILL make progress that would have otherwise been extremely difficult if not IMPOSSIBLE off the sauce.

God, we are a BODYBUILDING MESSAGE BOARD. Enough with downplaying gear! The stuff works - OBVIOUSLY.

More strawman arguments. Who said anything about "eating clean" or the "Weider principles"? I mentioned those in the context of how I cut my proverbial bodybuilding teeth. I also stated that I scrapped those Weider principles (or at least, the ones that were ineffective for me) for other strategies that produced results.

I do recall mentioning eating beef, whole eggs, and milk, instead of chicken breasts, egg whites, and rice. And it was straight to take of fire with that 60-30-10 nutrition routine.

That's I how I got from 189 to 210 lbs in one semester without using anabolics (which I could neither access nor afford, at the time).

Regular food, weight gainers (Yes, I used Weider's Mega Mass 2000), and GNC's Milk & Egg or Soy Protein powder are the items I used to get it done.

[Gym-Rat]

Relax Matt, you don’t need to force down 2500 calories and 200 grams of protein. If you usually eat 800-1000 and you up it to 1800 you will gain and no need for that much protein, I rarely take i. More than 125 and couldn’t care less if I get 75. Just eat lift and sleep and you will easily be 200. Just relax and stop overthinking it, it’s not that big of deal. It will happen if you train hard.

Too many worry about protein.
I get bigger/stronger when I eat pasta/carbs. Of course protein is important, but yes, overblown due to the supp industry.

[Grape Ape]

Too many worry about protein.
I get bigger/stronger when I eat pasta/carbs. Of course protein is important, but yes, overblown due to the supp industry.

I agree with this, however, if on a calorie restriction, I think protein should be the go to macro.

Could be just broscience but I'm sticking to it.

[IroNat]

Too many worry about protein.
I get bigger/stronger when I eat pasta/carbs. Of course protein is important, but yes, overblown due to the supp industry.

This.

[MCWAY]

Too many worry about protein.
I get bigger/stronger when I eat pasta/carbs. Of course protein is important, but yes, overblown due to the supp industry.

I agree with this, however, if on a calorie restriction, I think protein should be the go to macro.

Could be just broscience but I'm sticking to it.

"Bioscience" is simply empirical data (aka "Trial and error"). That's what Matt doesn't get.

He has it fused in his skull that there is only one way to gain size without steroids. And, if that doesn't work....or at least, doesn't work quickly enough, then "natural bodybuilding sucks" and it's time to hit the syringe.

My point, from the start, was that the modest gains he seeks DO NOT REQUIRE STEROIDS and WILL NOT TAKE A YEAR AND HALF to  obtain (why he's stuck on that 18-month crap, I'll never know).

When that 60-30-10 diet thing didn't work for me, I didn't weep, wail, gnash my teeth, or stare out the window singing, "Someday my stack will come!!"

Some folks do better with more carbs; others prefer more protein and fat.

[Grape Ape]

"Bioscience" is simply empirical data (aka "Trial and error"). That's what Matt doesn't get.

He has it fused in his skull that there is only one way to gain size without steroids. And, if that doesn't work....or at least, doesn't work quickly enough, then "natural bodybuilding sucks" and it's time to hit the syringe.

My point, from the start, was that the modest gains he seeks DO NOT REQUIRE STEROIDS and WILL NOT TAKE A YEAR AND HALF to  obtain (why he's stuck on that 18-month crap, I'll never know).

When that 60-30-10 diet thing didn't work for me, I didn't weep, wail, gnash my teeth, or stare out the window singing, "Someday my stack will come!!"

Some folks do better with more carbs; others prefer more protein and fat.

Agree that ones genetic makeup determines the diet they need for sure.

And, I too gained the most weight and strength when I didn't have much money.   I basically bought an $8 box of powdered milk, and twice a day would force down a shake of milk / a cup of powdered milk / a cup of oats / peanut butter.  It was gross but I did it.  Hit 225 for 18 on the bench.  I cannot come close to that now, as I have no desire to artificially force my body to a weight it doesn't want.

[MCWAY]

Agree that ones genetic makeup determines the diet they need for sure.

And, I too gained the most weight and strength when I didn't have much money.   I basically bought an $8 box of powdered milk, and twice a day would force down a shake of milk / a cup of powdered milk / a cup of oats / peanut butter.  It was gross but I did it.  Hit 225 for 18 on the bench.  I cannot come close to that now, as I have no desire to artificially force my body to a weight it doesn't want.

No eggs?

Another interesting phenomenon, about which I can also testify: Once you get fairly big, you can stay that way with modest calories.

I certainly am not downing the 4500-5000 calories I once did over 25 years ago. Yet, I can stay in the 220s fairly easily. But, it took the aforementioned amount of food just to get me over 200 lbs back then.

And, I've been able to modify my diet to keep improving my strength over the years, to the point where 225 is now my repping weight on the incline.

[Grape Ape]

No eggs?

Another interesting phenomenon, about which I can also testify: Once you get fairly big, you can stay that way with modest calories.

I certainly am not downing the 4500-5000 calories I once did over 25 years ago. Yet, I can stay in the 220s fairly easily. But, it took the aforementioned amount of food just to get me over 200 lbs back then.

And, I've been able to modify my diet to keep improving my strength over the years, to the point where 225 is now my repping weight on the incline.

No eggs.  I was working in a restaurant, so I got a meal or two there, and supplemented with the shakes.  Tons of pasta and carbs.

I also was training improperly, focusing on bench and BS, always lifting heavy, never deloading, shitty squat form, no deadlifts....etc.

But the additional weight didn't look good on my frame.  So I dropped the weight, changed the training style, and never get on a scale.  Very happy where I'm at from this context.

I can't bench as much, but can deadlift much, much more, squat well, and do endurance events over 50 miles with little additional training....all good.