Back in 1991 when Shawn Ray thought that he was going to defeat Lee Haney

[NarcissisticDeity]

Per that logic, Darrem Charles would be considered a better bodybuilder than Shawn Ray. Yet, if you proposed that, many would suggest you get drug-tested for narcotics. Ray's lone ASC win is worth 5 times as much as Charles' small show wins (figuratively and perhaps literally). Charles' biggest win was the NY Pro, the year it stopped being the Night of Champions, in 2005.


Ray was one of the TOP TIER guys; The only ones he didn't beat at the Olympia were Yates and Haney. As far as 1996 goes, Ray beat all those guys at the Olympia that beat him earlier that year. So, the competing-in-the-spring thing doesn't quite make sense.

Again, top 5 in the world, thirteen years straight is hardly overrated. Some consider Ray greater than guys who've actually won the Olympia (i.e. Jackson, Bannout).

Three men have won the O, at 5'6" (or shorter): Dickerson, Columbu, and Jackson.

Per that logic, Darrem Charles would be considered a better bodybuilder than Shawn Ray. Yet, if you proposed that, many would suggest you get drug-tested for narcotics. Ray's lone ASC win is worth 5 times as much as Charles' small show wins (figuratively and perhaps literally). Charles' biggest win was the NY Pro, the year it stopped being the Night of Champions, in 2005.

A better competitive bodybuilder? If he won more shows then why not? And when Shawn won the ASC it was only 3 years old so I don't think it was more prestigious than the other contests at that point? The Night of Champions & Ironman were up there.

Ray was one of the TOP TIER guys; The only ones he didn't beat at the Olympia were Yates and Haney. As far as 1996 goes, Ray beat all those guys at the Olympia that beat him earlier that year. So, the competing-in-the-spring thing doesn't quite make sense.

I'll respectfully disagree. Shawn placed 5th at the Arnold Classic in 1996 and 3rd at the Ironman. I think when the real Top Tier guys were off Shawn beat them and when they were on he didn't.

Again, top 5 in the world, thirteen years straight is hardly overrated. Some consider Ray greater than guys who've actually won the Olympia (i.e. Jackson, Bannout).

In 1988 he was 13th so not really top 5 for 13 years straight. 2 pro wins in 13 years , I would disagree. And people consider a lot of things , you can argue Shawn has a better physique than Dex or Samir but both managed to do something he couldn't and that's won the big one and Dexter's career smokes Shawns BY FAR no contest 26 wins and 1 Olympia title

[Royalty]

Don Ross and his comments after the 1991 Olympia

[Rambone]

a knockout bodypart shows a lack of symettry.

It’s a double-edged sword, my friend.

[Rambone]

won the O, at 5'6" (or shorter): Dickerson, Columbu, and Jackson.

Excluding Dex, many consider those the two worst Mr. Olympias of all time

[MCWAY]

1- If Shawn had been 6 inches taller with the same proportions, he would have been nearly unstoppable.
2 - JJ Marsh is VERY underrated as previously stated.
3 - Darrem Charles only won so many pro shows because he competed against nobodies mostly.  Not a bad thing really as the man realized that he couldn't hack it at the top so he did what he had to in order to promote himself and establish a legacy (if you want to call it that).

Three top-10 Olympia placing ain't exactly chopped liver. To me, Charles' most notable win was the Maximus Pro in Italy, where he upset Markus Ruhl. I actually saw in person the Orlando Xtreme Pro show in 2004 where Charles won. The guy almost literally grows before your eyes.

[Royalty]

Three top-10 Olympia placing ain't exactly chopped liver. To me, Charles' most notable win was the Maximus Pro in Italy, where he upset Markus Ruhl. I actually saw in person the Orlando Xtreme Pro show in 2004 where Charles won. The guy almost literally grows before your eyes.

That Pro Maximus victory was a huge win because Ruhl had convincingly won the 2002 Night of Champions, and placed a very strong 3rd at the 2003 Arnold Classic. At that time, he was a threat at any show.

If Ruhl didn’t tear his tricep leading up to the 2003 Olympia, he probably would have been 3rd or 4th.

[MCWAY]

A better competitive bodybuilder? If he won more shows then why not? And when Shawn won the ASC it was only 3 years old so I don't think it was more prestigious than the other contests at that point? The Night of Champions & Ironman were up there.

Me thinks the Arnold Classic is a tad more prestigious than the Acme Pro Open.

I'll respectfully disagree. Shawn placed 5th at the Arnold Classic in 1996 and 3rd at the Ironman. I think when the real Top Tier guys were off Shawn beat them and when they were on he didn't.

Yet, he beat those same guys at the O. It ain't Ray's fault that they weren't on at the Olympia and he was.

In 1988 he was 13th so not really top 5 for 13 years straight. 2 pro wins in 13 years , I would disagree. And people consider a lot of things , you can argue Shawn has a better physique than Dex or Samir but both managed to do something he couldn't and that's won the big one and Dexter's career smokes Shawns BY FAR no contest 26 wins and 1 Olympia title

Remember that a year is inclusive. Ray competed in 14 Olympias, placing top 5 in 13 straight (the exception being his first year in 1988). Again, in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, placing top 10 at the Olympia was FAR more prestigious than winning lower shows, in part because (until 2003) a top-10 placing qualified you for the next year's O.

Take one of my favorites, Mike Francois. He won his first FOUR pro shows, including the 1994 NOC and the 1995 ASC (upsetting the heavy-favored Flex Wheeler). But, when he finally hit the Olympia in 1995 and placed 7th, it was seen as a letdown. And that's the highest he would ever place at the O.

As someone mentioned earlier, Ray could have easily racked up the "$10,000 shows", that guys like Darrem Charles ended up winning. But, he felt that with an ASC and IronMan title already under his belt, he mostly focused on the Olympia.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Me thinks the Arnold Classic is a tad more prestigious than the Acme Pro Open.


Yet, he beat those same guys at the O. It ain't Ray's fault that they weren't on at the Olympia and he was.

Remember that a year is inclusive. Ray competed in 14 Olympias, placing top 5 in 13 straight (the exception being his first year in 1988). Again, in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, placing top 10 at the Olympia was FAR more prestigious than winning lower shows, in part because (until 2003) a top-10 placing qualified you for the next year's O.

Take one of my favorites, Mike Francois. He won his first FOUR pro shows, including the 1994 NOC and the 1995 ASC (upsetting the heavy-favored Flex Wheeler). But, when he finally hit the Olympia in 1995 and placed 7th, it was seen as a letdown. And that's the highest he would ever place at the O.

As someone mentioned earlier, Ray could have easily racked up the "$10,000 shows", that guys like Darrem Charles ended up winning. But, he felt that with an ASC and IronMan title already under his belt, he mostly focused on the Olympia.

Me thinks the Arnold Classic is a tad more prestigious than the Acme Pro Open.

Again it was only 3 years old when Shawn won it. The Night of Champions started in 1978! Was the ASC more prestigious than the San Jose Pro , Canadian pro? Sure , at that point I think the other premier shows were the NOC and Ironman with the ASC coming up

Yet, he beat those same guys at the O. It ain't Ray's fault that they weren't on at the Olympia and he was.

I agree but in the rare time he ventured out of the Olympia he wasn't winning the lower contests

Remember that a year is inclusive. Ray competed in 14 Olympias, placing top 5 in 13 straight (the exception being his first year in 1988). Again, in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, placing top 10 at the Olympia was FAR more prestigious than winning lower shows, in part because (until 2003) a top-10 placing qualified you for the next year's O.

Ray competed in 13 Olympias in 1988 he placed 13th after competing at the NOC where he placed 4th. He placed top 5 in 12 consecutive Mr Olympias. Good for him , he still only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of trying

Take one of my favorites, Mike Francois. He won his first FOUR pro shows, including the 1994 NOC and the 1995 ASC (upsetting the heavy-favored Flex Wheeler). But, when he finally hit the Olympia in 1995 and placed 7th, it was seen as a letdown. And that's the highest he would ever place at the O.

Well in his defense he got sick. Whenever a rookie turns pro and cleans house everyone has high expectations on them at the Olympia

As someone mentioned earlier, Ray could have easily racked up the "$10,000 shows", that guys like Darrem Charles ended up winning. But, he felt that with an ASC and IronMan title already under his belt, he mostly focused on the Olympia.

Perhaps He turned pro and entered the 88 NOC he placed 4th. He did well in 1990 in 1996 he tried the Ironman and placed 3rd and the Arnold he placed 5th. He wanted the big paydays and those lower shows he stood away from. He didn't compete on the GP tour either



Shawn had an excellent physique was pretty consistent but 2 wins in 13 years is NOT impressive at all. 

[Royalty]

a knockout bodypart shows a lack of symettry.

I think that perhaps Cormier’s knockout bodypart was his quads... his specifically quad separation. Cormier could also do an impressive ab vacuum.

[Royalty]

Haidar had abs for days, but look at the quad separation on CC

[MCWAY]

Again it was only 3 years old when Shawn won it. The Night of Champions started in 1978! Was the ASC more prestigious than the San Jose Pro , Canadian pro? Sure , at that point I think the other premier shows were the NOC and Ironman with the ASC coming up


I agree but in the rare time he ventured out of the Olympia he wasn't winning the lower contests

The lower contests were the ASC and the IronMan. Ray could have easily nabbed one of those other shows like the ones that Charles was winning in the mid 2000s. And, as stated earlier, he often ended up beating those same guys at the Olympia later that year.

It was not that uncommon for top 5 Olympia placers to forgo other shows and concentrate on the Olympia, which Ray did for most of his career.

Ray competed in 13 Olympias in 1988 he placed 13th after competing at the NOC where he placed 4th. He placed top 5 in 12 consecutive Mr Olympias. Good for him , he still only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of trying

That's 14 Olympias: Two in the 80s (1988, 1989), Ten in the 90s (1990-1999) and two in the aughts (2000, 2001).

Top 5 in all except 1988. Placing top 10 (and especially top 5) at the O carried more weight back then.

There were guys who never won pro shows yet were considered among bodybuilding's elite, because they placed top 10 at the Olympia (especially if they did so multiple times) . Tom Platz and Mike Quinn come to mind.

Well in his defense he got sick. Whenever a rookie turns pro and cleans house everyone has high expectations on them at the Olympia

If my memory is correct, Francois got sick in 1997, two years after his Olympia debut in 1995. But, it re-emphasizes my point that where he placed at the Olympia held more weight than the pro shows he won (even with the ASC title and NOC titles under his belt).

Perhaps He turned pro and entered the 88 NOC he placed 4th. He did well in 1990 in 1996 he tried the Ironman and placed 3rd and the Arnold he placed 5th. He wanted the big paydays and those lower shows he stood away from. He didn't compete on the GP tour either

Indeed. I believe he didn't compete in any other show but the Olympia in 1995 or 1997 after placing 2nd in 1994 and 1996, respectively.

Shawn had an excellent physique was pretty consistent but 2 wins in 13 years is NOT impressive at all.

But, 5th or higher at the biggest show in the world, 12 years straight, certainly IS impressive.

Edit - I stand corrected; Ray skipped the O in 1989 (either that or he didn't qualify).

[NarcissisticDeity]

The lower contests were the ASC and the IronMan. Ray could have easily nabbed one of those other shows like the ones that Charles was winning in the mid 2000s. And, as stated earlier, he often ended up beating those same guys at the Olympia later that year.

It was not that uncommon for top 5 Olympia placers to forgo other shows and concentrate on the Olympia, which Ray did for most of his career.

That's 14 Olympias: Two in the 80s (1988, 1989), Ten in the 90s (1990-1999) and two in the aughts (2000, 2001).

Top 5 in all except 1988. Placing top 10 (and especially top 5) at the O carried more weight back then.

There were guys who never won pro shows yet were considered among bodybuilding's elite, because they placed top 10 at the Olympia (especially if they did so multiple times) . Tom Platz and Mike Quinn come to mind.

If my memory is correct, Francois got sick in 1997, two years after his Olympia debut in 1995. But, it re-emphasizes my point that where he placed at the Olympia held more weight than the pro shows he won (even with the ASC title and NOC titles under his belt).

Indeed. I believe he didn't compete in any other show but the Olympia in 1995 or 1997 after placing 2nd in 1994 and 1996, respectively.

But, 5th or higher at the biggest show in the world, 12 years straight, certainly IS impressive.

The lower contests were the ASC and the IronMan. Ray could have easily nabbed one of those other shows like the ones that Charles was winning in the mid 2000s. And, as stated earlier, he often ended up beating those same guys at the Olympia later that year.

The lower contests were the Pittsburg Pro , Canada Pro , Florida Pro , etc... The higher end shows were the Ironman and NOC and the Arnold was getting there. Shawn could've probably done well in those , he choose to put all his eggs in one basket in hoping for the big one. It didn't work for him

It was not that uncommon for top 5 Olympia placers to forgo other shows and concentrate on the Olympia, which Ray did for most of his career.

See above , he gambled and it didn't work out for him

That's 14 Olympias: Two in the 80s (1988, 1989), Ten in the 90s (1990-1999) and two in the aughts (2000, 2001).

13 Olympias , he didn't compete in 1989 Mr Olympia

Top 5 in all except 1988. Placing top 10 (and especially top 5) at the O carried more weight back then.

More weight than winning?

There were guys who never won pro shows yet were considered among bodybuilding's elite, because they placed top 10 at the Olympia (especially if they did so multiple times) . Tom Platz and Mike Quinn come to mind.

It's pretty impressive to place in the top 10 however who really remembers Mike Quinn? He's not regarded as one of the best ever? Although he was top 6 in 1988  and Platz is legendary for other reasons

If my memory is correct, Francois got sick in 1997, two years after his Olympia debut in 1995. But, it re-emphasizes my point that where he placed at the Olympia held more weight than the pro shows he won (even with the ASC title and NOC titles under his belt).

I disagree , I think him winning his first 4 pro shows as a rookie carries more weight than his Olympia especially beating seasoned pros in the process , Same with Flex in 1993

But, 5th or higher at the biggest show in the world, 12 years straight, certainly IS impressive.

I agree. 2 pro wins in 13 years of competing is terrible which is why he's overrated. He's good at marketing himself as something more than what he was



overrated
adjective
US  /ˌoʊ.vɚˈreɪ.t̬ɪd/ UK  /ˌəʊ.vəˈreɪ.tɪd/
 
If something or someone is overrated, that person or thing is considered to be better or more important than they really are

[honest]

Shawn Ray was a hell of a bodybuilder, but never deserved to beat Yates not even when he was off, argument could be made he should have placed higher in some other Olympias.

[michael arvilla]

I always thought  Cormier’s Delts could have been rounder more “ capped” (everyone always says no weaknesses)

[AbrahamG]

Shawn Ray was a hell of a bodybuilder, but never deserved to beat Yates not even when he was off, argument could be made he should have placed higher in some other Olympias.

Spot on.

[Royalty]

I always thought  Cormier’s Delts could have been rounder more “ capped” (everyone always says no weaknesses)

I hear you 100% there.

But a lot of pro’s we’re putting enhancing agents in their delts, so perhaps that is something CC was not doing?

Extreme example:

[MCWAY]

The lower contests were the Pittsburg Pro , Canada Pro , Florida Pro , etc... The higher end shows were the Ironman and NOC and the Arnold was getting there. Shawn could've probably done well in those , he choose to put all his eggs in one basket in hoping for the big one. It didn't work for him

He did do well. He won the IronMan in 1990 and the ASC in 1991.

See above , he gambled and it didn't work out for him

13 Olympias , he didn't compete in 1989 Mr Olympia

As I said, he concentrated on the O, figuring he already had the two other top titles.

More weight than winning?


It's pretty impressive to place in the top 10 however who really remembers Mike Quinn? He's not regarded as one of the best ever? Although he was top 6 in 1988  and Platz is legendary for other reasons

Yes, placing top 10 at the O had more weight than winning a lower-tiered show. I listed example earlier of guys who won more shows than Shawn Ray but do not have have the high Olympia placings that Ray has.

Mike Quinn was one of the best pros of the late 80s and early 90s. People forget that, because of the fiasco at the 1992 WBF Championship.

I disagree , I think him winning his first 4 pro shows as a rookie carries more weight than his Olympia especially beating seasoned pros in the process , Same with Flex in 1993


I agree. 2 pro wins in 13 years of competing is terrible which is why he's overrated. He's good at marketing himself as something more than what he was



overrated
adjective
US  /ˌoʊ.vɚˈreɪ.t̬ɪd/ UK  /ˌəʊ.vəˈreɪ.tɪd/
 
If something or someone is overrated, that person or thing is considered to be better or more important than they really are

The only thing he wasn't was Mr. Olympia. But he was among the all-time greats, even better in some folks' view than a few Olympia winners.

Shawn Ray was a hell of a bodybuilder, but never deserved to beat Yates not even when he was off, argument could be made he should have placed higher in some other Olympias.

I beg to differ. The one Olympia that Ray should have nabbed was 1994. Yates looked awful.

[NarcissisticDeity]

He did do well. He won the IronMan in 1990 and the ASC in 1991.

As I said, he concentrated on the O, figuring he already had the two other top titles.

Yes, placing top 10 at the O had more weight than winning a lower-tiered show. I listed example earlier of guys who won more shows than Shawn Ray but do not have have the high Olympia placings that Ray has.

Mike Quinn was one of the best pros of the late 80s and early 90s. People forget that, because of the fiasco at the 1992 WBF Championship.

The only thing he wasn't was Mr. Olympia. But he was among the all-time greats, even better in some folks' view than a few Olympia winners.

I beg to differ. The one Olympia that Ray should have nabbed was 1994. Yates looked awful.

He did do well. He won the IronMan in 1990 and the ASC in 1991.

Twice in 13 years. Not impressive

As I said, he concentrated on the O, figuring he already had the two other top titles.

It was never about those titles. For Ray it was always the Olympia it was his destiny

Yes, placing top 10 at the O had more weight than winning a lower-tiered show. I listed example earlier of guys who won more shows than Shawn Ray but do not have have the high Olympia placings that Ray has.

I'll agree to disagree

Mike Quinn was one of the best pros of the late 80s and early 90s. People forget that, because of the fiasco at the 1992 WBF Championship.

Mike placed better than expected but one of the best pros of the 89s and early 90s? Mike was good one of the best of that era? I'll disagree

The only thing he wasn't was Mr. Olympia. But he was among the all-time greats, even better in some folks' view than a few Olympia winners.

We're back to agree-to-disagree lol All-time greats? Not even close

I beg to differ. The one Olympia that Ray should have nabbed was 1994. Yates looked awful.

Ray was behind Levrone in 1994 after the prejuding and narrowly edged him out at the night show. Shawn was lucky to place second and he knew it. At the time he said he was happy to be back in the runner-up spot where he belonged it wasn't until later he revised his opinion and claimed he should've won.

[MCWAY]

Twice in 13 years. Not impressive

It was never about those titles. For Ray it was always the Olympia it was his destiny

You're making my point. If it was always the Olympia, why are you so surprised that he competed in so few other shows and won just two (albeit, two of the biggest in the organization)?

I'll agree to disagree

A number of men have won more titles than Ray. But, the only ones considered better than Ray have won the Olympia itself and/or placed top 5 at the O multiple times.

Mike placed better than expected but one of the best pros of the 89s and early 90s? Mike was good one of the best of that era? I'll disagree

Indeed, he was.....until he left for the WBF.

That's the prestige which came with being a top-10 Olympia guy. That's why a number of pros who made top 10 didn't bother competing in lower shows the following year (as they were already qualified for the next year's O).

We're back to agree-to-disagree lol All-time greats? Not even close

How is he not an all-time great? Again, the only bodybuilders better than he have either won the Olympia or placed top 5 multiple times AND have more pro wins.

The only guys of the 90s/early 2000s era better than Ray who didn't win the Olympia are Wheeler, Labrada, and Levrone (perhaps, even Gaspari). Both men won more pro shows and placed runner-up at the O as many times as (or more times than) Ray did.

Ray was behind Levrone in 1994 after the prejuding and narrowly edged him out at the night show. Shawn was lucky to place second and he knew it. At the time he said he was happy to be back in the runner-up spot where he belonged it wasn't until later he revised his opinion and claimed he should've won.

I never said Yates should have even placed 2nd. He looked awful and should have been 3rd behind Levrone and Ray. How do you get straight firsts with half a biceps and holding more water than the Hoover Dam?

[G_Thang]

3 - Darrem Charles only won so many pro shows because he competed against nobodies mostly.  Not a bad thing really as the man realized that he couldn't hack it at the top so he did what he had to in order to promote himself and establish a legacy (if you want to call it that).

King of the $10,000 Shows.

[sculpture]

Fantastic physique

But he was delusional thinking he could beat Haney or Yates

[NarcissisticDeity]

You're making my point. If it was always the Olympia, why are you so surprised that he competed in so few other shows and won just two (albeit, two of the biggest in the organization)?

A number of men have won more titles than Ray. But, the only ones considered better than Ray have won the Olympia itself and/or placed top 5 at the O multiple times.

Indeed, he was.....until he left for the WBF.

That's the prestige which came with being a top-10 Olympia guy. That's why a number of pros who made top 10 didn't bother competing in lower shows the following year (as they were already qualified for the next year's O).

How is he not an all-time great? Again, the only bodybuilders better than he have either won the Olympia or placed top 5 multiple times AND have more pro wins.

The only guys of the 90s/early 2000s era better than Ray who didn't win the Olympia are Wheeler, Labrada, and Levrone (perhaps, even Gaspari). Both men won more pro shows and placed runner-up at the O as many times as (or more times than) Ray did.

I never said Yates should have even placed 2nd. He looked awful and should have been 3rd behind Levrone and Ray. How do you get straight firsts with half a biceps and holding more water than the Hoover Dam?

You're making my point. If it was always the Olympia, why are you so surprised that he competed in so few other shows and won just two (albeit, two of the biggest in the organization)?

Your point is? He's not overrated because he placed well in the Olympia? His entire mission was to win the Olympia , he failed. He placed well for sure , good for him , what makes him overrated to me is he only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition. key word competition. People carry on like he's one of the all-time greatest , he's not even top 20

A number of men have won more titles than Ray. But, the only ones considered better than Ray have won the Olympia itself and/or placed top 5 at the O multiple times.

I'll disagree

Indeed, he was.....until he left for the WBF.

Again I'll disagree

How is he not an all-time great? Again, the only bodybuilders better than he have either won the Olympia or placed top 5 multiple times AND have more pro wins.

The only guys of the 90s/early 2000s era better than Ray who didn't win the Olympia are Wheeler, Labrada, and Levrone (perhaps, even Gaspari). Both men won more pro shows and placed runner-up at the O as many times as (or more times than) Ray did.

How is he? By virtue of placing second on a couple of occasions? you're gonna need more than that , including pro wins which he has next to none. I wouldn't put Gaspari as an all-time greatest list even though he has 3 runner-ups and 9 pro wins

I never said Yates should have even placed 2nd. He looked awful and should have been 3rd behind Levrone and Ray. How do you get straight firsts with half a biceps and holding more water than the Hoover Dam?

Easy to get straight firsts when you consider the high & low scores are tossed out. Dorian was off from 1993 but he wasn't competing against himself. Shawn was happy to be second in 1994 because of the payday he knew he couldn't compete with Dorian and was happy until years later. He promised to beat Haney , he failed. He promised to beat Dorian , he failed. Had the balls to claim Ronnie shouldn't have beaten him or Flex in 1998.  He was NEVER going to beat any of them the sport passed him by he was in the wrong era

[NarcissisticDeity]

One of the things Shawn was often criticized for was he never really changed over his career. When he turned pro he weighed 196lbs and at his best he was only 205lbs. 9 pounds in 13 years? Although he did compete at 215lbs and his trademark sharpness suffered for it

[Bevo]

Promised to beat Haney - failed
Promised to beat Yates - failed
Said him or Flex should've beaten Ronnie in 1998 more fail.



I've been saying it for over a decade. Shawn Ray is vastly OVERRATED , excellent physique perhaps his type of physique should be representative of what the title should represent , however he was always delusional. He's very good at marketing himself. He won 2 fucking pro shows in 13 years of competing technically 3 but for the record 2 that's it fuck JJ Marsh has as many pro wins yet no one is holding him in such high regard , Porter Cottrell has 5!! for fucks sakes.

Branch Warren won more pro shows, technically, is he better than Shawn Ray?

[MCWAY]

Your point is? He's not overrated because he placed well in the Olympia? His entire mission was to win the Olympia , he failed. He placed well for sure , good for him , what makes him overrated to me is he only won 2 pro shows in 13 years of competition. key word competition. People carry on like he's one of the all-time greatest , he's not even top 20

They do that because he IS one of the all-time greatest.

He was one of the best in the world for over a decade. How is that "overrated"? He should pad his stats by beating some mediocre pros to win $10,000 shows, instead of concentrating on the big one?


Name 20 more bodybuilders better than him (who don't have Sandows). Again, some will argue that Ray was better than some Olympia winners (i.e. Dickerson, Bannout, Jackson).

I'll disagree

So, who are these bodybuilders better than Ray who didn't win Olympias nor place top 5 more times than he did?

Again I'll disagree




How is he? By virtue of placing second on a couple of occasions? you're gonna need more than that , including pro wins which he has next to none. I wouldn't put Gaspari as an all-time greatest list even though he has 3 runner-ups and 9 pro wins

By being top 5 for 12 years straight at the best show on Earth, again with the understanding that placing top 10 at the Olympia was more prestigious than winning lower-tier shows.

Easy to get straight firsts when you consider the high & low scores are tossed out. Dorian was off from 1993 but he wasn't competing against himself. Shawn was happy to be second in 1994 because of the payday he knew he couldn't compete with Dorian and was happy until years later. He promised to beat Haney , he failed. He promised to beat Dorian , he failed. Had the balls to claim Ronnie shouldn't have beaten him or Flex in 1998.  He was NEVER going to beat any of them the sport passed him by he was in the wrong era

How is that some egregious sin? NOBODY thought Ronnie Coleman was going to win in 1998. There have only been 16 Mr. Olympias; ergo, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFBB pros who "failed".