Back in 1991 when Shawn Ray thought that he was going to defeat Lee Haney

[ProudVirgin69]

Much like how Haney, Yates, Coleman represented the best of their era, I think that's about the most favorable way Heath will be seen.  I dont think he'll make many all-time great lists.  There's not really an iconic photo of Phil the way there is for most other of the great BBers

[ProudVirgin69]

this was from a friend, seen in Mexico.  If you didnt know that was a multiple Mr O you'd think he was just a random bodybuilder. 

[ProudVirgin69]

Excuse the triple post but last thought: Phil does have one of the best BDB of all time.  But that pose doesnt show his face so it doesnt get associated with him.  Even in that poster they opt for his FDB and unimpressive most-muscular instead, because it shows his face off

[Wiggs]

I'll say this, like most multi-O winners, Phil didn't deserve all his wins. His physique brought in an era of being full because of his 3d effect. I'd put him right below Arnold, Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.

I still have the best of some 90s guys better than him even though he'd dust them onstage.

[ChristopherA]

Much like how Haney, Yates, Coleman represented the best of their era, I think that's about the most favorable way Heath will be seen.  I dont think he'll make many all-time great lists.  There's not really an iconic photo of Phil the way there is for most other of the great BBers

You don't think Phil Heath will make many all time great lists? Cmon

[NarcissisticDeity]

:'(Titles certainly contribute to the arguement but then there's the eye test. And Samir being better than Shawn doesn't pass the eye test. Shawn's best is better than Samir's best. Shawn was 20lbs more and with an overall better physique compared to Samir. Samir looked incredible that one year amd never duplicated it again. Shawn was consistently great.

Shawn is definitely an uncrowded Mr. O over ND's Dorian.
Flex Wheeler never won an Olympia and he'll be looked at as better than several Mr. Os.

You can argue who has the better physique between Shawn and Samir however when it comes to who should be in the greatest of all time Samir by virtue of winning an Olympia title automatically puts him in that category. Shawn NO. 

[beakdoctor]

Good Post.  Where do you put Phil Heath?

Probably the 2nd group. His accomplishments make him deserving of the first group. Personally I just never cared for his look. His arms were impressive and his back was great but I just never saw what everyone else did. He also wasn't ever really embraced by the fans. He was adversarial and unlikeable.

But the biggest thing that puts him in the 2nd tier for me is that although he was the greatest of his era he didn't take the sport to a new level. He didn't elevate the sport and I don't think he had the structure to do so. But his record win percentage and Mr. O's make a strong argument for first group.

[ChristopherA]

Samir obviously did not train his hamstrings with the same intensity as he did his other body parts.

Damn.

Woof! Hamstrings are non existent. Not a good look

[ChristopherA]

Probably the 2nd group. His accomplishments make him deserving of the first group. Personally I just never cared for his look. His arms were impressive and his back was great but I just never saw what everyone else did. He also wasn't ever really embraced by the fans. He was adversarial and unlikeable.

But the biggest thing that puts him in tge 2nd tier for me is that although he was the greatest of his era he didn't take the sport to a new level. He didn't elevate the sport and I don't think he had the structure to do so. But his record win percentage and Mr. O's make a strong argument for first group.

Great legs too

[NarcissisticDeity]

Yes, this is very true. This video puts ND to sleep and saves all of us hours of back and forth.
 

Again I'm talking about Samir being better because he's an Olympia winner , you can argue physiques all you want that's another subject and that is a lot closer than you think

[Wiggs]

Probably the 2nd group. His accomplishments make him deserving of the first group. Personally I just never cared for his look. His arms were impressive and his back was great but I just never saw what everyone else did. He also wasn't ever really embraced by the fans. He was adversarial and unlikeable.

But the biggest thing that puts him in the 2nd tier for me is that although he was the greatest of his era he didn't take the sport to a new level. He didn't elevate the sport and I don't think he had the structure to do so. But his record win percentage and Mr. O's make a strong argument for first group.

I hear you but think about this, has anyone elevated the sport since Ronnie? That's a tall order considering Ronnie is viewed as the best ever among most.

For me, if he had wider shoulders and smaller obliques, I'd have him in the first group.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Much like how Haney, Yates, Coleman represented the best of their era, I think that's about the most favorable way Heath will be seen.  I dont think he'll make many all-time great lists.  There's not really an iconic photo of Phil the way there is for most other of the great BBers

[Wiggs]

Again I'm talking about Samir being better because he's an Olympia winner , you can argue physiques all you want that's another subject and that is a lot closer than you think

So statistically speaking he's better but not visually speaking, got it. Lol

[NarcissisticDeity]

So statistically speaking he's better but not visually speaking, got it. Lol

 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.

We can't compare titles won because Shawn only has 2

[MCWAY]

From a financial standpoint that may be true but there isn't just Grand Prix/lower-tiered shows. There was still the premier shows as well. And you got to the Olympia by placing high in or winning a pro show ( or special invite ) and once you got there and placed top 10 you were automatically qualified for the next year. You keep insisting placing high in the Olympia is better than winning actual pro shows and not just the low-tier shows. This may be true from a financial standpoint however you're talking about what makes a a bodybuilder one of the all-time greatest 2 pro wins in 13 years of competition is NOT the benchmark. Why do you think Shawn refers to himself as a " Hall of fame bodybuilder? " because he can't defer to his numerous bodybuilding titles because he doesn't have many. The whole point of competition is to win. Shawn won twice in 13 years which is exactly why he's overrated.

Shawn Ray actually IS in the IFBB Hall of Fame (class of 2007). And many would consider it a travesty if he were not there.

It's not just two wins in 13 years; it's being one of the five best bodybuilders in the world for over a decade, beating guys who won more lower-tier shows repeatedly.

The Olympia title is still the most coveted bodybuilding title. Before the Olympia it was the NABBA Mr Universe. If you won an Olympia title you cemented  your legacy, even if only once you've accomplished something rarely done. So by virtue of this alone Shawn wouldn't be in the top 20 of all-time greatest ( 17 Olympia winners ) in polls of the best bodybuilder to never win an Olympia it's usually Flex or Kevin never Shawn.

It IS; but it wasn't at all times. Winning the Olympia when it was not the top title doesn't mean you become an all-time great retroactively. Sergio Oliva won an Olympia, not only when it wasn't the top show but he didn't compete against anyone.

You found one. Both are better because the won the Olympia regardless over who. They won Shawn never did. Do either men have a better physique than Shawn? Whole other question. Neither competed against Shawn so irrelevant. The fulfilled their " destiny " Shawn didn't. They are in very rare company but hey Shawn placed second twice  Always a bridesmaid and never a bride.

They won the top title of their era, which happened to be the Olympia. Big difference!

Still better than Ray and his 2 wins

I conceded they're not all the same, however the whole point of competition is to win when you only won 2 contests in 13 years of trying you suck at competitive bodybuilding. Shawn put all his eggs in one basket and gambled he would win the big one. He failed. In hindsight he should've stuck to the  spring shows perhaps he would've made more money. Samir is better than Charles because he won the Olympia , Samir is better than Shawn by virtue of this simple fact. Once you win the Olympia title you're automatically one of the greatest bodybuilders of all-time. It doesn't matter if you ever win another pro show ( Which Samir did )

No. You're qualified as one of the greatest of all-time, IF you win the top title in the business (when it actually is such). That's why Scott, Oliva, and Schwarzenegger aren't all time greats, simply on their Olympia wins alone. The Olympia wasn't the top title when they won it (except for maybe Schwarzenegger's last two wins).

What resume? 2 pro wins in 19 tries?  but hey he was consistent  he placed second on a couple of occasions  Kevin Levrone has a resume , Flex Wheeler has a resume , Chris Cormier has a resume , Vince Taylor has a resume , Lee Labrada has a resume Shawn has no resume which is exactly why he's overrated. All-time great my ass

Top 5 in the world 12 consecutive years says it all. That is consistent.

Wheeler, Levrone, Labarda, and Taylor were also top 5 in the world multiple times, making them also all time greats. You claim Cormier has a resume? His highest O placing was 3rd, twice; same goes for Taylor. And how many times did Cormier come up short winning the ASC, SIX? At least, Ray won it one time.

[MCWAY]

He put all his eggs in one basket it didn't work out for him. He should've entered more shows because he was NEVER going to win the Olympia. We can only comment on what transpired he won twice in 19 contest, not a great record by any means but he was consistent and placed second twice I'm sure that's just as good as winning the Olympia

Strawman argument. Nobody claimed placing second twice is as good as winning. But, your claim that because Ray only won two shows (albeit, the IronMan and ASC), his 12-straight top 5 placing at the Olympia shouldn't count as his being among the all-time greats.

And you repeatedly dismiss the fact that for the bulk of his career, placing top-10 at the Olympia carried more prestige than winning lower shows. A number of guys have won lower shows but got clobbered at the O.

JJ Marsh won the IronMan in 1991; He placed "16th" at the Olympia that same year.

[MCWAY]

Talking about someones win percentage in bodybuilding seems like a week case to make.

First in most sports where a W L record matters the record is compiled in one on one competition or at least one team on one team competition.  Not 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 23. In bodybuilding if you enter a show that has 30 competitors and you place 6th, youve beaten 80 % of the competition but it's still a L

Bodybuilding is subjectively objective. In other words there's supposed to be objective scoring criteria but ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinion of the judge as to whether or not you meet the objective criteria.

Also bodybuilders are judged in comparison to not only the other competitors but also to previous versions of themselves. An example would be the old grand prix shows where the same guys would compete against each other in 7 or 8 consecutive shows. One guy is clearly better than the rest but is off compared to what he looked like last week and loses to the guy he just beat who held their condition.

Also, comparing era's, you have to acknowledge that the qualities that drive someone to be the best would prevail. Few men rise above the standards of their time. Arnold and Sergio would've done well in any era. Ronnie wouldve too but if Arnold were to be 27 years old and competing in 2003 he'd look a lot different than he did in 73 and vice versa for Ronnie. These guys would push themselves to do what it took to reach the top given the standards of their time. So Samir won in 83 with weak hamstrings, well nobody gave a shit about hamstrings in 83 but if he were in his prime in 96 you can bet he would've had much better hamstrings. And Ray couldn't beat Lee, Ronnie or Doz but if his prime were in 82 he probably would've been a  Mr. O.

IMO you got 4 guys in bodybuilding that are the Mt. Rushmore GOATS of the sport and thats Arnold, Lee Haney, Dorian and Ronnie.

Then you got the next tier guys who wone the big one but couldn't hold on to it  or were good enough to win the big one but it just didn't happen: Flex, Vince, Kevin, Nasser, lou, Gaspari, Labrada, Kai and I think Shawn falls into this category along with Zane, Dexter and Samir etc...

Then theres a third tier of guys who were truly fucking great.and made names for themselves but were never ever going to win the big one and thats. Dillet, Demey, Quinn, Christian, Platz, Padilla, Boyer Coe, Ruhl , Roelly, Victor, JOJ, Albert Beckles and on and on.

Long post/it's early and coffee is kicking in.

Where do Heath and Cutler fit on your tiers?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Shawn Ray actually IS in the IFBB Hall of Fame (class of 2007). And many would consider it a travesty if he were not there.

It's not just two wins in 13 years; it's being one of the five best bodybuilders in the world for over a decade, beating guys who won more lower-tier shows repeatedly.

It IS; but it wasn't at all times. Winning the Olympia when it was not the top title doesn't mean you become an all-time great retroactively. Sergio Oliva won an Olympia, not only when it wasn't the top show but he didn't compete against anyone.


They won the top title of their era, which happened to be the Olympia. Big difference!

No. You're qualified as one of the greatest of all-time, IF you win the top title in the business (when it actually is such). That's why Scott, Oliva, and Schwarzenegger aren't all time greats, simply on their Olympia wins alone. The Olympia wasn't the top title when they won it (except for maybe Schwarzenegger's last two wins).

Top 5 in the world 12 consecutive years says it all. That is consistent.

Wheeler, Levrone, Labarda, and Taylor were also top 5 in the world multiple times, making them also all time greats. You claim Cormier has a resume? His highest O placing was 3rd, twice; same goes for Taylor. And how many times did Cormier come up short winning the ASC, SIX? At least, Ray won it one time.

Shawn Ray actually IS in the IFBB Hall of Fame (class of 2007). And many would consider it a travesty if he were not there.

I know he is and that's what I was referring to and it doesn't take much to get in it either lol he can't defer to his numerous word titles because he has none

It's not just two wins in 13 years; it's being one of the five best bodybuilders in the world for over a decade, beating guys who won more lower-tier shows repeatedly.

That carries no weight in the scheme of things and I have mentioned that as already.

It IS; but it wasn't at all times. Winning the Olympia when it was not the top title doesn't mean you become an all-time great retroactively. Sergio Oliva won an Olympia, not only when it wasn't the top show but he didn't compete against anyone.

The whole contest was to settle who was the best of the best from the inception it was designed to have people who were all champions to see who was the best of all the champions. regardless anyone who won the Olympia automatically qualifies for the greatest of all time and Sergio ran unopposed once and that was 1968

They won the top title of their era, which happened to be the Olympia. Big difference!

Ok?

No. You're qualified as one of the greatest of all-time, IF you win the top title in the business (when it actually is such). That's why Scott, Oliva, and Schwarzenegger aren't all time greats, simply on their Olympia wins alone. The Olympia wasn't the top title when they won it (except for maybe Schwarzenegger's last two wins

They all won more titles before the Olympia so entertaining that were true it doesn't matter. The whole point is they won regardless of the title , Shawn twice. And I'm not sure where you're getting the Olympia wasn't the top title at that point?

Top 5 in the world 12 consecutive years says it all. That is consistent.

I've said as much and that means he's the greatest of all time? He was a consistent loser for 12 years congrats , pretty sure he was trying to win but never could

Wheeler, Levrone, Labarda, and Taylor were also top 5 in the world multiple times, making them also all time greats. You claim Cormier has a resume? His highest O placing was 3rd, twice; same goes for Taylor. And how many times did Cormier come up short winning the ASC, SIX? At least, Ray won it one time.

No comparison between Shawn and Chris 11 pro wins vs 2 Shawn cased closed

[NarcissisticDeity]

Strawman argument. Nobody claimed placing second twice is as good as winning. But, your claim that because Ray only won two shows (albeit, the IronMan and ASC), his 12-straight top 5 placing at the Olympia shouldn't count as his being among the all-time greats.

And you repeatedly dismiss the fact that for the bulk of his career, placing top-10 at the Olympia carried more prestige than winning lower shows. A number of guys have won lower shows but got clobbered at the O.

JJ Marsh won the IronMan in 1991; He placed "16th" at the Olympia that same year.

You keep glossing over the fact that he won 2 freaking contests lol in 13 years and you think he's one of the all time greatest ? No way I don't care how consistent he was , he consistently lost that's no prize. Shawn is the textbook definition of the word overrated. Nothing about his career is exceptional or extraordinary

[MCWAY]

You keep glossing over the fact that he won 2 freaking contests lol in 13 years and you think he's one of the all time greatest ? No way I don't care how consistent he was , he consistently lost that's no prize. Shawn is the textbook definition of the word overrated. Nothing about his career is exceptional or extraordinary

So who else has been top 5 at the O for 12 years straight? You are not considered among the best in the business until you place high at the Olympia, no matter how many lower-tier shows you win. And to even be considered elite, you have to do so multiple times, which was far truer in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s than it is now.

Again, Mike Francois won 4 shows, including the Arnold Classic. He never placed higher than 7th at the Olympia (1995). Shawn Ray, who only did the Olympia that year, placed 4th.

And I already mentioned J.J. Marsh, who won the 1991 IronMan Invitational but got killed at the Olympia ("16th"). Vince Taylor, who lost to Marsh at that same IronMan show (5th), placed 3rd at the O.

Who do you think got rated the better bodybuilder in 1991?

[NarcissisticDeity]

So who else has been top 5 at the O for 12 years straight? You are not considered among the best in the business until you place high at the Olympia, no matter how many lower-tier shows you win. And to even be considered elite, you have to do so multiple times, which was far truer in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s than it is now.

Again, Mike Francois won 4 shows, including the Arnold Classic. He never placed higher than 7th at the Olympia (1995). Shawn Ray, who only did the Olympia that year, placed 4th.

And I already mentioned J.J. Marsh, who won the 1991 IronMan Invitational but got killed at the Olympia ("16th"). Vince Taylor, who lost to Marsh at that same IronMan show (5th), placed 3rd at the O.

Who do you think got rated the better bodybuilder in 1991?

So who else has been top 5 at the O for 12 years straight? You are not considered among the best in the business until you place high at the Olympia, no matter how many lower-tier shows you win. And to even be considered elite, you have to do so multiple times, which was far truer in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s than it is now.

Says you. You can't be considered among the best in the business until you win more than 2 professional contests no matter how many times you came in top 5 in the Olympia. See how that works?

Again, Mike Francois won 4 shows, including the Arnold Classic. He never placed higher than 7th at the Olympia (1995). Shawn Ray, who only did the Olympia that year, placed 4th.

Mike Francois is a better competitive bodybuilder than Shawn Ray because he won more contests. The whole concept of entering bodybuilding shows is to win them , you don't get credit for consistently losing no matter how close you may have come

And I already mentioned J.J. Marsh, who won the 1991 IronMan Invitational but got killed at the Olympia ("16th"). Vince Taylor, who lost to Marsh at that same IronMan show (5th), placed 3rd at the O.

Who do you think got rated the better bodybuilder in 1991?

According to who? The whole point of this is Shawn is overrated because he rarely won anything and people are including him the greatest of all-time which is silly you DO NOT get included in this list by winning next to nothing and especially not the Mr Olympia

[joswift]

Shawn Ray competed in the eras of Haney Yates and Ronnie

They were unbeatable champions to place second when these guys were around was a win.

[MCWAY]

Says you.

Says the bodybuilders, pundits, judges, and fans over multiple eras.

You can't be considered among the best in the business until you win more than 2 professional contests no matter how many times you came in top 5 in the Olympia. See how that works?

The other shows are means to get to the Olympia. That's why you can pull a JJ Marsh: Win a lower-tier pro show but go to the Olympia that same year/season and get annihilated, something that never happened to Shawn Ray.

Mike Francois is a better competitive bodybuilder than Shawn Ray because he won more contests. The whole concept of entering bodybuilding shows is to win them , you don't get credit for consistently losing no matter how close you may have come

Francois beat lower-level competition. When he got the Olympia, the best he could do was 7th (which he did one time).

Winning lower-level shows but having a lone at top 10 placing at the O doesn't measure ip to being the top 5 at the O perennially.

According to who? The whole point of this is Shawn is overrated because he rarely won anything and people are including him the greatest of all-time which is silly you DO NOT get included in this list by winning next to nothing and especially not the Mr Olympia

He won the ASC and the IronMan. But, unlike some others who also won those shows (i.e. Francois, Marsh), he was top 5 for over a decade at the biggest show of them all.

The whole point of this is how you place at the Olympia (and how consistent you are at such) is what determines the degree of greatness, especially during from the 80s through the 2000s.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Says the bodybuilders, pundits, judges, and fans over multiple eras.

The other shows are means to get to the Olympia. That's why you can pull a JJ Marsh: Win a lower-tier pro show but go to the Olympia that same year/season and get annihilated, something that never happened to Shawn Ray.

Francois beat lower-level competition. When he got the Olympia, the best he could do was 7th (which he did one time).

Winning lower-level shows but having a lone at top 10 placing at the O doesn't measure ip to being the top 5 at the O perennially.

He won the ASC and the IronMan. But, unlike some others who also won those shows (i.e. Francois, Marsh), he was top 5 for over a decade at the biggest show of them all.

The whole point of this is how you place at the Olympia (and how consistent you are at such) is what determines the degree of greatness, especially during from the 80s through the 2000s.

Says the bodybuilders, pundits, judges, and fans over multiple eras.

So you say. again.

The other shows are means to get to the Olympia. That's why you can pull a JJ Marsh: Win a lower-tier pro show but go to the Olympia that same year/season and get annihilated, something that never happened to Shawn Ray.

The other shows were a means to qualify for the Olympia as well as making living for people who wasn't really going to win the Olympia. Why do think think Flex always competed in the spring shows? Easy pay day and he had a legitimate chance of winning the Olympia where Shawn never did

Francois beat lower-level competition. When he got the Olympia, the best he could do was 7th (which he did one time).

Flex? Labrada? Clairmonte? Nasser? lower-level? Francois won his first 4 pro shows something Shawn never did , in fact he won more pro shows in 2 years than Shawn did in 13

Winning lower-level shows but having a lone at top 10 placing at the O doesn't measure ip to being the top 5 at the O perennially.

There are other shows than lower-level that's your strawman. placing top 5 at the Olympia does not hold anymore weight then you know actually winning a professional contest. Francois winning the first 4 pro shows as a rookie and beating seasoned pro in the process with infinitely more impressive than Shawn top 5 at the Olympia. The ultimate goal of entering any pro contest is to win it. Shawn almost never won. You can't escape that

He won the ASC and the IronMan. But, unlike some others who also won those shows (i.e. Francois, Marsh), he was top 5 for over a decade at the biggest show of them all.

And that's all he won ever in 19 competitions. Again that's no consolation Shawn bitched & moaned about it the entire time you think he was content with top 5?  absolutely not.

The whole point of this is how you place at the Olympia (and how consistent you are at such) is what determines the degree of greatness, especially during from the 80s through the 2000s.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? If you consistently lose , it determine how great you are? What the heck?  Wrong , what determined greatness if what you won and how many times. The whole point is to WIN the Olympia and not merely do well. Shawn was NEVER the best bodybuilder , he one one of the best at certain years but NEVER the best. he promised to beat the best he failed. You see it in the video he's not claiming he's there to do well or consistent. He said he was going to beat Haney. Haney is arguably the GOAT Shawn isn't , he's not in the same league , he was never a threat , he's not great in any context of the word. That's why I say he's vastly overrated he's convinced people like you he's in their league and he's NOT , NEVER was NEVER will be. He had an excellent physique did well for himself all things considered was a mediocre competitive bodybuilder  with just 2 wins to his credit and that's it.