Author Topic: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?  (Read 65341 times)

Grape Ape

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #825 on: November 06, 2023, 12:37:06 PM »
No it isnt

Next time someone on the mainstream news say "Israel has a right to defend itself" to justify the killing of women and children in targeted bombings I wish someone would say the same thing when someone comments on the October 7th Attack

"Hamas has a right to defend itself"

as far as "what is Israel supposed to do?"

Easy, the same thing they would do if Hamas was hiding in Israel

What Hamas did was not defending itself.
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joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #826 on: November 06, 2023, 01:49:17 PM »
What Hamas did was not defending itself.
they have been defending themselves from Israel since 1987
Quote
What is Hamas and why was it created?
Hamas is an Islamist militant movement and one of the Palestinian territories' two major political parties. It governs more than two million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, but the group is best known for its armed resistance to Israel.

Notice the bolded word

Grape Ape

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #827 on: November 06, 2023, 01:51:28 PM »
they have been defending themselves from Israel since 1987
Notice the bolded word

It doesn't justify what they did on Oct 7th.

That was not self defense, it was pure evil.
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joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #828 on: November 06, 2023, 02:03:15 PM »
It doesn't justify what they did on Oct 7th.

That was not self defense, it was pure evil.

Stop trying to pretend it all started on Oct 7th

There have been atrocities on both sides for years
Israel have killed far more Palestinian civilians that Hamas have


Israel have killed twice as many Palestinians in the last 4 weeks than from 2008 to 2020 in total

Phantom Spunker

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #829 on: November 06, 2023, 10:29:35 PM »
If you could see inside the hospitals in Gaza right now, you’d be left with no doubt that what Israel (along with the US and UK) is doing is evil. I’ve been inside frontline hospitals in the past in order to assess whether or not I would rely on them for treatment, and they are utter chaos. Not only do you have the usual mangled people on hospital beds, but you have families packed in the halls and corridors, some starving and dying from dehydration and illness. You have terrified mothers and children. You have elderly women dying alone in bed from cancer. That’s with organizations still being able to support with medicines, and the buildings having electricity.

Israel has cut off all of that. Not only cut off access to fuel, water, and the most basic painkilling and anesthetic medicines, but also targeted hospitals full of sheltering families. The courage of the men and women to continue working there in the dark, while under bombardment, should make us hang our heads in shame.

Bombs decapitate people. They burn people alive. They tear limbs off. If you saw that happening to your families, you’d go to your grave wanting revenge. Children are in the hospitals now, having been effectively napalmed with white phosphorus. Try changing a child’s dressings from that without painkillers. Try performing life-saving surgery using the light from your phone because there’s no power. This is the result of deliberate decisions made by the Israeli government in order to collectively punish ‘human animals.’ Does anyone want to say that’s not evil?

Griffith

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #830 on: November 07, 2023, 05:01:20 AM »

ProudVirgin69

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #831 on: November 07, 2023, 05:37:41 AM »
What Hamas did was not defending itself.

The targets were military-aged reservists and settlers.  What is Hamas to do if Israel insists on using human shields to “protect” their combatants?

Griffith

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #832 on: November 07, 2023, 08:12:13 AM »
Israel saw what happened in Rhodesia and South Africa.

They won't allow the same to happen to them.

joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #833 on: November 07, 2023, 08:29:25 AM »
The targets were military-aged reservists and settlers.  What is Hamas to do if Israel insists on using human shields to “protect” their combatants?
Love it

Rusty Trombone

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #834 on: November 07, 2023, 08:32:57 AM »
If you could see inside the hospitals in Gaza right now, you’d be left with no doubt that what Israel (along with the US and UK) is doing is evil. I’ve been inside frontline hospitals in the past in order to assess whether or not I would rely on them for treatment, and they are utter chaos. Not only do you have the usual mangled people on hospital beds, but you have families packed in the halls and corridors, some starving and dying from dehydration and illness. You have terrified mothers and children. You have elderly women dying alone in bed from cancer. That’s with organizations still being able to support with medicines, and the buildings having electricity.

Israel has cut off all of that. Not only cut off access to fuel, water, and the most basic painkilling and anesthetic medicines, but also targeted hospitals full of sheltering families. The courage of the men and women to continue working there in the dark, while under bombardment, should make us hang our heads in shame.

Bombs decapitate people. They burn people alive. They tear limbs off. If you saw that happening to your families, you’d go to your grave wanting revenge. Children are in the hospitals now, having been effectively napalmed with white phosphorus. Try changing a child’s dressings from that without painkillers. Try performing life-saving surgery using the light from your phone because there’s no power. This is the result of deliberate decisions made by the Israeli government in order to collectively punish ‘human animals.’ Does anyone want to say that’s not evil?

I wholeheartedly agree.

Rusty Trombone

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #835 on: November 07, 2023, 08:34:33 AM »
Thin Lizzy, stop it. Please, I beg of you. You don't know what you're talking about here. You clearly haven't even read my previous posts or the links I provided if you’re still making these statements in response. I'm not going to repeat the same points endlessly.

Now, the good news is that you're not the dumbest guy on the planet. You were just lazy enough to regurgitate a Tweet from him blindly, without pausing to evaluate it logically. I noticed today that you took that monumentally stupid post about genocide and population growth from the failed political commentator and pseudointellectual dingbat, Dave Rubin.

Let me see if I can walk you through this and help you to recover from such an embarrassing gaffe. Don't worry: I am here to help you. I want you to think of me as a fellow brother-in-iron throughout this exercise. Let's abandon any tribal allegiances you have and simply look at this one point rationally in order to see if we can find one area of agreement and converge back on to a path towards discussing men in thongs again. All I ask is that you display some integrity and don't run to Twitter or find a YouTuber to steal a response from.

Let's begin with the legal definition of genocide, as set out in Article II of the Genocide Convention:

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

 (a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
 (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d)
 Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Now, let's take the Palestinian death toll from Israeli attacks since 7 October, which has been reported by the UN, various NGOs, and credible media channels. That figure is approximately 10,000.

Let's also remind ourselves of what Israel's defense minister said shortly before they put his words into action:

'We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.'

Will you now acknowledge that, firstly, there are at least credible reasons to suspect that Israel has violated international laws, including the Genocide Convention?

Secondly, will you now acknowledge that citing population growth statistics over the past 50 years in response to the fact that 10,000 Palestinians have been killed over the past month is a classic red herring fallacy and ridiculously stupid? What exactly did you hope to demonstrate by citing that?

Again, I'm just asking that you respond to these questions with a little intellectual honesty, without the inclusion of irrelevant references to Marxism, naïve college students, or vacuous political pejoratives. I await your response with much optimism.

Excellent post,thank you.

Grape Ape

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #836 on: November 07, 2023, 08:35:13 AM »
The targets were military-aged reservists and settlers.  What is Hamas to do if Israel insists on using human shields to “protect” their combatants?

The music festival?

Why didn't they just kill folks then?  Why the all the added brutality?
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Grape Ape

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #837 on: November 07, 2023, 08:37:02 AM »
Stop trying to pretend it all started on Oct 7th

There have been atrocities on both sides for years
Israel have killed far more Palestinian civilians that Hamas have


Israel have killed twice as many Palestinians in the last 4 weeks than from 2008 to 2020 in total

If Oct 7th didn't happen, all the people recently killed in Palestine doesn't happen either.
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joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #838 on: November 07, 2023, 08:39:01 AM »
The music festival?
Israel place civilians on the border just behind the wall

The civilians are the first people they come across when they get over the wall

Hence the army is hiding behind its civilians

Dalnet

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #839 on: November 07, 2023, 08:41:05 AM »
Israel place civilians on the border just behind the wall

The civilians are the first people they come across when they get over the wall

Hence the army is hiding behind its civilians


The property prices must be way lower the closer to the borders you get. At least you'd assume so.

Grape Ape

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #840 on: November 07, 2023, 08:41:22 AM »
Israel place civilians on the border just behind the wall

The civilians are the first people they come across when they get over the wall

Hence the army is hiding behind its civilians


There's plenty of legitimate criticisms to level against Israel, no reason to draw false equivalencies on top of that.  This is like Republicans claiming every Democrat is a pedo, and Democrats claiming every Republican is a white supremacist.
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joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #841 on: November 07, 2023, 08:45:17 AM »
There's plenty of legitimate criticisms to level against Israel, no reason to draw false equivalencies on top of that.  This is like Republicans claiming every Democrat is a pedo, and Democrats claiming every Republican is a white supremicist.
Nothing like that at all

Fact is civilians are in harms way being so close to the border with zero assistance available if they came over the wall

This is Israels greed

If they wanted to protect civilians properly they would have an internal perimeter fence with a half mile border in between

No paragliders looming over unseen then

Griffith

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #842 on: November 07, 2023, 08:46:42 AM »
There's plenty of legitimate criticisms to level against Israel, no reason to draw false equivalencies on top of that.  This is like Republicans claiming every Democrat is a pedo, and Democrats claiming every Republican is a white supremacist.

Building of the wall only began in 2000.

Grape Ape

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #843 on: November 07, 2023, 08:48:15 AM »
Nothing like that at all

Fact is civilians are in harms way being so close to the border with zero assistance available if they came over the wall

This is Israels greed

If they wanted to protect civilians properly they would have an internal perimeter fence with a half mile border in between

No paragliders looming over unseen then

That's different than claiming Israel is using human shields.

My superficial knowledge of the situation is that Hamas was planning this for two years, and purposely limited conflict to draw Israel into a false sense of security and let their guard down.

Then, it was accelerated due to a potential peace agreement with Saudi.
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Kwon

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #844 on: November 07, 2023, 08:48:38 AM »
Israel place civilians on the border just behind the wall

The civilians are the first people they come across when they get over the wall

Hence the army is hiding behind its civilians


Jeff

What side is the Palestinian side in that pic?
Q

joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #845 on: November 07, 2023, 08:49:30 AM »
Jeff

What side is the Palestinian side in that pic?

No idea

Doesnt really matter as far as the discusion goes

Griffith

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #846 on: November 07, 2023, 08:50:43 AM »
Nothing like that at all

Fact is civilians are in harms way being so close to the border with zero assistance available if they came over the wall

This is Israels greed

If they wanted to protect civilians properly they would have an internal perimeter fence with a half mile border in between

No paragliders looming over unseen then

Then they'd have to demolish all the buildings, homes and areas which were already there.

Building of the wall only began in 2000.

Griffith

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #847 on: November 07, 2023, 08:54:55 AM »
When I was in Israel there was no wall and I travelled throughout the West Bank as well.

There weren't even any major check points to pass over Israel into the West Bank.


joswift

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #848 on: November 07, 2023, 08:57:18 AM »
Then they'd have to demolish all the buildings, homes and areas which were already there.

Building of the wall only began in 2000.

Israel is doing that at the moment

Griffith

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Re: Israel Attacked - by Hamas - Discussion?
« Reply #849 on: November 07, 2023, 08:58:11 AM »
Israel is doing that at the moment

My point is that the wall cut through what was already built there.