RIP Kevin Gebhardt - IFBB Pro Bodybuilder - Age 31

[Taffin]

Reading that post from Milos again, it kind of smacks of him distancing himself from this:

milossarcev

We have lost another brother of iron, way too early. 😔😞 Last night I was informed that my former athlete @kevingebhardt_ was found dead in his apartment in Germany. I knew Kevin since 2018, his amateur days…Helped him win the Pro card (same year) and guided him ON and OFF for several pro shows. He made the trip to Las Vegas to finally train with me - exactly a year ago…after training with @thedorianyates in Spain as well. He was planning to compete in Alicante and Portugal shows last year, but upon returning home he decided not to compete that year. That was the last time I heard from him. Sincere condolences to his family and loved ones. He was a super sweet person, super passionate about bodybuilding and very hard worker. I am devastated with the news and very sad for his girlfriend and his family. May he rest in peace. 🙏🏻❤️

[Amerian Muscle]

Reading that post from Milos again, it kind of smacks of him distancing himself from this:

I noticed that as well. Oddly calculated post.

[Dave D]

Everyone says Milos is very conservative with drugs. People talk about the dreaded insulin, but realistically, what contribution does insulin have on these deaths? Milos' pro programs have as much as 100iu of insulin in them, but otoh many pros are on 200-300 units without him. The steroids doses are very conservative compared to what many of these guys do. Let's say he recommends 1500 or 2000mg, compare to what pros actually do, say 5-7 or even 10 grams. Standard is at least 4000mg on the Olympia stage. So I very much doubt Milos drastically ramps up anyone's PED program, probably the opposite like I said. But he can't stop the athletes from doing a ton of roids so my guess is he doesn't even try. Only "drastic" thing he does is prescribing 25iu of insulin IV both before and after training but it's still less than what many are accustomed to doing. So how is Milos killing these guys?

I think once a guru has multiple deaths over several decades under their stewardship people tend to be skeptical of their protocols.

The same cloud follows Shelby Starnes.

Besides Greg Kovac, who died under Chad Nichols mentoring?

[balzac]

Milos was his coach?

Let me guess, kidney failure.

allegedly multiple organ failure, had kidney problems he knew about... 

i fear for his health... they never learn

[a_pupil]

allegedly multiple organ failure, had kidney problems he knew about... 

i fear for his health... they never learn

Just the fact that he had asthma or whatever + his gut blowing out so early in his "career" should have been enough for people to tell him that he wasn't built for the game.

[Stephano]

Just the fact that he had asthma or whatever + his gut blowing out so early in his "career" should have been enough for people to tell him that he wasn't built for the game.

The game = Take copious amounts of drugs, temporarily inflate oneself like a bullfrog or pigeon, prance about in a thong on stage for a live audience of male homosexuals, come down with heart/kidney/liver/nerve damage, lose 100% of the muscles and/or die.

Some fucking game! 

[IroNat]

The game = Take copious amounts of drugs, temporarily inflate oneself like a bullfrog or pigeon, prance about in a thong on stage for a live audience of male homosexuals, come down with heart/kidney/liver/nerve damage, lose 100% of the muscles and/or die.

Some fucking game! 

You make it sound like a bad thing.

[Van_Bilderass]

I think once a guru has multiple deaths over several decades under their stewardship people tend to be skeptical of their protocols.

The same cloud follows Shelby Starnes.

Besides Greg Kovac, who died under Chad Nichols mentoring?

Chad prepped most of the top guys in bb at one point or another. Many, many deaths. Shawn calls him Dr Kevorkian. Nasser died,  Ronnie is destroyed. Numerous kidney failures among his clients, if I'm not mistaken he prepped Wheeler too? Tom Prince. Dallas McCarver. That Masters Mr O competitor who died. Had people drink crisco oil. Use that cancer drug for appetite, Megestrol. Tons of GH and igf-1.
Enormous quantities of food and wildly yoyoing bodyweights.

I've seen protocols from all these gurus and Milos' plans seem the mildest.

[a_pupil]

Chad prepped most of the top guys in bb at one point or another. Nasser died,  Ronnie is destroyed. Numerous kidney failures among his clients, if I'm not mistaken he prepped Wheeler too? Tom Prince. Dallas McCarver. Don Long I think? Had people drink crisco oil. Use that cancer drug for appetite, Megestrol. Tons of GH and igf-1.
Enormous quantities of food and yoyoing bodyweights.

I've seen protocols from all these gurus and Milos' plans seem the mildest.

I don't think Milos or the proper gurus of death should be blamed IMO.

All of their clients are consenting adults who should be researching what they're putting in their bodies and should know when their bodies are giving stress signals.

[Van_Bilderass]

There is a strong connection between diabetes and heart disease. That isn't exactly the same thing as using insulin when you don't have diabetes, but I am convinced there is a relationship between the two. It isn't something I could show to you through studies because they wouldn't do good studies on people who take insulin when they don't already have diabetes.

Yes I know.

Question is if insulin can actually be protective in a lot of cases though. You want lowish blood sugar instead of the opposite. Sugar kills diabetics' organs, including kidneys.

High insulin itself probably isn't healthy, over time, but in the context of modern bodybuilding it might be the most innocuous thing they take. JMO 

[Van_Bilderass]

I don't think Milos or the proper gurus of death should be blamed IMO.

All of their clients are consenting adults who should be researching what they're putting in their bodies and should know when their bodies are giving stress signals.

Yes and people miss that the clients frequently do not listen to the PED advice in particular. If a top competitor is used to doing 4-5  grams he isn't likely dropping it to half that, no matter what the guru says.
I think Chad said he dropped McCarvers doses by half (something like that) but that he likely didn't listen. He gave the example of EPO which he had told him to drop, but likely didn't.

[GymnJuice]

Yes I know.

Question is if insulin can actually be protective in a lot of cases though. You want lowish blood sugar instead of the opposite. Sugar kills diabetics' organs, including kidneys.

High insulin itself probably isn't healthy, over time, but in the context of modern bodybuilding it might be the most innocuous thing they take. JMO 

I agree with you. And as you already know a lot of the research looks at correlations and not causation. So, part of the health benefit of the low blood sugars may be from people eating low glycemic index foods, or smaller meals, or a higher metabolism through consistent exercise, or some other factor, rather than the blood sugar number itself.

It is an interesting question though. If someone wasn't a diabetic and took insulin to keep their sugars in the 70s-80s would they be healthier than someone who didn't take insulin and kept their sugars in the 90s, all other factors being equal. I think it would hurt rather than help by making a resistance to the insulin, but I admit that I don't know.

[Dave D]

Chad prepped most of the top guys in bb at one point or another. Many, many deaths. Shawn calls him Dr Kevorkian. Nasser died,  Ronnie is destroyed. Numerous kidney failures among his clients, if I'm not mistaken he prepped Wheeler too? Tom Prince. Dallas McCarver. That Masters Mr O competitor who died. Had people drink crisco oil. Use that cancer drug for appetite, Megestrol. Tons of GH and igf-1.
Enormous quantities of food and wildly yoyoing bodyweights.

I've seen protocols from all these gurus and Milos' plans seem the mildest.

I knew you’d know.

I forgot that Nasser died, I attributed that to a botched surgery but I’m sure the surgery was a result of”protocols”. Milos seems to be more closely related to guys he’s worked with passing while under his care, I remember Luke Wood defending him on this site saying that was not true, and how disrespectful Getbig was towards Milos.

Ultimately these are grown men making decisions and they are responsible for their actions.

[Amerian Muscle]

I think once a guru has multiple deaths over several decades under their stewardship people tend to be skeptical of their protocols.

The same cloud follows Shelby Starnes.

Besides Greg Kovac, who died under Chad Nichols mentoring?

Bodybuilders are indoctrinated since their early teenage years to "getbig or die trying...and leave a huge fucking coffin". They laugh at the prospect of early death, at least at times where it seems far away. Then when the reaper knocks at the door, even the biggest and baddest fold like a house of cards, and may even go off and turn to the allmighty. Some with more success and luck than others.

[Amerian Muscle]

It makes one wonder if there were any warnings or did he really die unexpectedly? I remember Dallas McCarver had several incidents which should have been rude awakenings. But he chose to completely ignore them. Mental illness of peace.

Notice that the crowd was clapping as he was carried away facing certain death. Sick.

[Van_Bilderass]

I agree with you. And as you already know a lot of the research looks at correlations and not causation. So, part of the health benefit of the low blood sugars may be from people eating low glycemic index foods, or smaller meals, or a higher metabolism through consistent exercise, or some other factor, rather than the blood sugar number itself.

It is an interesting question though. If someone wasn't a diabetic and took insulin to keep their sugars in the 70s-80s would they be healthier than someone who didn't take insulin and kept their sugars in the 90s, all other factors being equal. I think it would hurt rather than help by making a resistance to the insulin, but I admit that I don't know.

Diabetics don't require more and more insulin. Anecdotally some bodybuilders say they have used insulin daily for 20 years but have excellent insulin sensitivity. But this is with fast acting insulin mostly. I think the Lantus probably causes resistance especially when taken at supraphysiological doses. Where insulin may help bodybuilders is when they take GH, which is all of them, which then causes resistance. But with added insulin their sugars don't get over the limits. Of course it doesn't fix the underlying resistance, and more insulin means more resistance. But shorter term it may save the organs.

I agree, for a healthy adult insulin most likely doesn't help. But interestingly some docs advocate putting type II diabetics on insulin immediately instead of waiting for metformin etc to start working. This would presumably save their organds, and in particular their pancreas. If they then lose a lot of fat they can get off the insulin.

[kreator]

There's a reason why bodybuilders are considered meatheads by the general public. I respect the guys who know when it's time to quit, never look back and find something else less damaging in life to focus on

[Van_Bilderass]

I knew you’d know.

I forgot that Nasser died, I attributed that to a botched surgery but I’m sure the surgery was a result of”protocols”. Milos seems to be more closely related to guys he’s worked with passing while under his care, I remember Luke Wood defending him on this site saying that was not true, and how disrespectful Getbig was towards Milos.

Ultimately these are grown men making decisions and they are responsible for their actions.

I think Luke Wood didn't do Milos' PED plan, he was absolutely monstrous  Then he also had that thyroid scare where he lost like 30lbs (?) while eating junk food in large quantities at the time, which he blamed on overdosed T3 bought in Thailand, which is actually very plausible.

Didn't Nasser have these hematoma like infections throughout his back? Unlikely to be because of a "bad PED stack," per se, maybe bad gear or Synthol?

It makes one wonder if there were any warnings or did he really die unexpectedly? I remember Dallas McCarver had several incidents which should have been rude awakenings. But he chose to completely ignore them. Mental illness of peace.

Notice that the crowd was clapping as he was carried away facing certain death. Sick.

Maybe he ignored it or it was "misdiagnosed." Competitors pass out at all levels due to dehydration, and all competitors are dehydrated almost as a rule. But of course just looking at him you knew he didn't have a normal sized heart or any organ. Milos said all bodybuilders have big organs, like the liver for example.

[falco]

Just the fact that he had asthma or whatever + his gut blowing out so early in his "career" should have been enough for people to tell him that he wasn't built for the game.

Ok. But would he listen?

[BayGBM]

The game = Take copious amounts of drugs, temporarily inflate oneself like a bullfrog or pigeon, prance about in a thong on stage for a live audience of male homosexuals, come down with heart/kidney/liver/nerve damage, lose 100% of the muscles and/or die.

Some fucking game!

It is what it is. 

[joswift]

Is that the stupid little bastard Cisterno pretending to help by hanging onto everyone?

[falco]

Is that the stupid little bastard Cisterno pretending to help by hanging onto everyone?

He wanted so much to be part of the first callout. This was his opportunity.

[Amerian Muscle]

Maybe he ignored it or it was "misdiagnosed." Competitors pass out at all levels due to dehydration, and all competitors are dehydrated almost as a rule. But of course just looking at him you knew he didn't have a normal sized heart or any organ. Milos said all bodybuilders have big organs, like the liver for example.

I recall that Shawn Ray diagnosed his early death 6 months in advance. I will look into it and see if I can find it.

[falco]

I recall that Shawn Ray diagnosed his early death 6 months in advance. I will look into it and see if I can find it.

Shawn Ray died?

[Amerian Muscle]

Shawn Ray died?

Didn't check but I think Shawn predicted the death of Dallas.