Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce

[natural al]

Natural, my point is that ND refuses to give Coleman credit when credit is due.  He looked excellent in 2003.  Noone has ever shown up on stage at almost 290 with ripped glutes and striated chest and thighs.  Yes, I agree that his back was not as shredded as when he was 260, but his size was amazing.  For ND to state he looked horrible is laughable.  I got every mag for that show.  Ironman, Flex, MD, MMI (the Canadian rag) all were overwhelming in their praise.  Thus, when ND, a non-descript internet poster with no credentials, starts making blanket statements I have to stand up.  He is a joke.  He refuses to admit that Yates would have lost in 1998; the judges wouldn't allow it.  Well, if the judges wouldn't allow it then that makes the IFBB more of a laughing stock.  The only year Coleman was even close to defeat was 2001 and Jay did not have a back then.  Thus, when they turned around Ronnie dominated him.  Now Dorian, he was given gifts in 1994/1996/ and 1997.  I have seen the 1995 edition and he looks good, but nowhere near 1993.  His arms are also not symmetrical as he ripped his left bicep.  Thus, he is hardly my idea of physical perfection.  Thus, I only truly like his physique from 1992/1993.  He was bigger in 1993, but much more aesthetic when he was 240 lbs in 1992.  Take your pic.  The same can be said of Coleman in 1998 vs 2003.  Once again, it is your personal choice. However, for ND to rip on people who appreciated Coleman in 2003; that just shows what an asswipe this guy is.  He is an idiot and not even worth listening to anymore.  It is like convincing Hitler that the Jews were actually a good people. 

really, I gotta get to bed...I just scanned you're post and we really have nothing to argue about.  Ronnie looked awsome when he showed up at 285 or 290...I get my years confused, my mags have been in storage for about 3 years so that's how I will refer to that year for this conversation.  I have no problem admitting that he destroyed everyone that year but again, at what cost?  He'll never regain his crisp musculature and he looks like a shadow of his former self.  I give ronnie credit.  maybe I souldn't have posted in this thread, my main beef is the misrepresentation of dorian by people who were not around when he was dominant.  Trust me, people were just as shocked in 93 as they were when ron showed up weighing 290.  To say he's b-tier is moronic and wrong.  That's what gets me worked up.  ND is what I like to call a bodybuilding purest.  what I mean by that is he embraces alot of things that are not really in vougue right now but 15 years ago if you didn't have em, you were going no place.  That's why this debate will never die.  One of the first things I remember reading about winning a bodybuilding contest was you HAD to have great calves, shoulders and abs or you were not gonna win and this held true for the most part but it does not apply right now.  ND's not wrong and niether is hulkster, they are just from different eras and that's where it gets tricky.  The standards of the 80's and early 90's just don't hold up to younger guys.  Hell, you got people on here saying Samir's back was just "ok" or Bob Paris was a swimmer.  I bet if you took a pic of Markus back 15 years people would say he sucked.  Just a different point of view.

[NarcissisticDeity]

This is so over...

ND is merely calling time outs and running out of bounds to stop the clock.
The bleachers are emptying (edit: have been empty for quite some time).

He should know that athletes who exhibit poor sportsmanship not only annoy their opponents, but indefinitely tarnish their reputation in the eyes of their peers and audience. I truly wonder if anyone will continue to take a serious ND post, well, seriously!

The ramifications of his insolence will extend far beyond this thread.

Yawn 

[Hulkster]

ND is what I like to call a bodybuilding purest.  what I mean by that is he embraces alot of things that are not really in vougue right now but 15 years ago if you didn't have em, you were going no place.

he is not a purist. A purist would not go for someone with Yates' taper, lack of cuts, gut and poor vascularity.

They probably wouldn't go for Ronnie version 2003 either.

But they might go for wasp-waist Ronnie of 98/99 due to the "classical" taper, detail and lines.

[NarcissisticDeity]

I have been saying this for 2 years now, but some like ND just can't seem to grasp the concept..


ND says that Dorian was dryer than Ronnie was here at the same bodyweight of 257 pounds.

Lets say that is true.

My question is:


What difference would it make?? The detail, shape and vascularity just isn't there...

Well add the dryness to denisty and balance & proportion and thickness and top it off with great posing and you have an unbeatable combo 1992-1997

[pumpster]

he is not a purist. A purist would not go for someone with Yates' taper, lack of cuts, gut and poor vascularity.

Of course not; these are the Iron Age versions.

[Praetor Fenix]

Fenix all of your analysis is rendered moot compared to this , I'll take it from someone who stood side by side with both men , his opinion carries more weight than yours does 

Lee Preist


Quote
HOW DO YOU FEEL DORIAN WOULD FAIR AGAINST RONNIE COLEMAN NOW?

I think Dorian at his best (1993) would easily beat Ronnie. Dorian might not be as symmetrical as Ronnie, but all over he was more complete and in better condition at his best.

The ultimate authority...

[NarcissisticDeity]

he is not a purist. A purist would not go for someone with Yates' taper, lack of cuts, gut and poor vascularity.

They probably wouldn't go for Ronnie version 2003 either.

But they might go for wasp-waist Ronnie of 98/99 due to the "classical" taper, detail and lines.

No I would go for Flex Wheeler in 93 , wait which is what I was routing for   and psssst I'll let you in on a little secret , Ronnie had a gut in 99  

[NarcissisticDeity]

The ultimate authority...

More than you by far  he stood toe-to-toe with both of them , so I'm more likely to take his opinion than yours , so all your ramblings are for not , that quote stops you dead in your tracks !!

[Hulkster]

More than you by far  he stood toe-to-toe with both of them , so I'm more likely to take his opinion than yours , so all your ramblings are for not , that quote stops you dead in your tracks !!

ahh. but here is the ultimate question:

Who's opinion is more valid:

Flex and Dillett (vote Ronnie)

or

Priest (vote Dorian)?

 

[NarcissisticDeity]

ahh. but here is the ultimate question:

Who's opinion is more valid:

Flex and Dillett (vote Ronnie)

or

Priest (vote Dorian)?

 

I'm glad you asked because it brings me back to one of my points none of ou opinions are right or wrong , its the judges who have the ultimate say and seeing that transpired already we know Dorian bested Ronnie eight to nil , so in the end we've proved nothing so the more Fenix or you or even me say " no he would win " proves that none of of know anything . 

[Praetor Fenix]

Well add the dryness to denisty and balance & proportion and thickness and top it off with great posing and you have an unbeatable combo 1992-1997

Dorian didn't have balance and proportion.
For one, he was asymmetrical. The biceps and quadriceps are the most glaring example of his poor left to right symmetry. From top to bottom, no quad sweep, genetically wide waist, and massive obliques do not permit an adequate X-frame or V-taper.

Thick? Nowhere is he thicker than Ronnie in contest shape. Their density is comparable.

Congratulations. He came in dry. 160 pages and thats your conclusion.

[Hulkster]

I'm glad you asked because it brings me back to one of my points none of ou opinions are right or wrong , its the judges who have the ultimate say and seeing that transpired already we know Dorian bested Ronnie eight to nil , so in the end we've proved nothing so the more Fenix or you or even me say " no he would win " proves that none of of know anything . 

and the fact that you can even compare Ronnie in the form that he was clobbered by most of the 90's lineup to his peak form proves that you do not know anything either..

did you see how bad he looked in 1995? That was one of your precious 8 wins, lol.

[pumpster]

To Dillet & Flex add Oliva and Schwarzenegger, who went off in the mid-90s on the directions Yates was taking BB.

In addition to the getbig poll, of course..

Coleman >>> Yates

[Hulkster]

To Dillet & Flex add Oliva and Schwarzenegger, who went off in the mid-90s on the directions Yates was taking BB.

ND will pretend that, like most things in this thread that make Yates look bad compared to ronnie, the comments by sergio and arnold do not exist.

I can't see I can't see I can't see...

[Praetor Fenix]

I'm glad you asked because it brings me back to one of my points none of ou opinions are right or wrong , its the judges who have the ultimate say and seeing that transpired already we know Dorian bested Ronnie eight to nil , so in the end we've proved nothing so the more Fenix or you or even me say " no he would win " proves that none of of know anything . 

Bodybuilding judging is only partly a matter of opinion.
I will continue to address this until you eventually acknowledge it.

Muscularity                                       : 33%
Symmetry                                         : 33%
Muscle Maturity / Conditioning / Density : 33 %

The Muscularity and Symmetry leave little room for subjectivity.
It is about as straightforward as it can get.

This 8:0 statistic is f*cking bullshit. Athletes change man, especially with a decade of change.
Is John Candy a better bodybuilder because he had more muscle than Phil Heath at the age of 4?

[NarcissisticDeity]

and the fact that you can even compare Ronnie in the form that he was clobbered by most of the 90's lineup to his peak form proves that you do not know anything either..

did you see how bad he looked in 1995? That was one of your precious 8 wins, lol.

It not my fault he sucked so long lol dispite having a 8 year head start on Dorian in weight training   anyway he wasn't in his leauge before and not now obviously

[Praetor Fenix]

It not my fault he sucked so long lol dispite having a 8 year head start on Dorian in weight training   anyway he wasn't in his leauge before and not now obviously

But it is your fault that this is getting off-topic once again.   

Peak Ronnie > Peak Dorian
Since you are so adamant in defense of the contrary, how about you begin to provide some sound information (supported by measurements or visual evidence) as to how peak Dorian could possibly eclipse peak Ronnie in a standard IFBB contest?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Bodybuilding judging is only partly a matter of opinion.
I will continue to address this until you eventually acknowledge it.

Muscularity                                       : 33%
Symmetry                                         : 33%
Muscle Maturity / Conditioning / Density : 33 %

The Muscularity and Symmetry leave little room for subjectivity.
It is about as straightforward as it can get.

This 8:0 statistic is f*cking bullshit. Athletes change man, especially with a decade of change.
Is John Candy a better bodybuilder because he had more muscle than Phil Heath at the age of 4?

Again when Ronnie lost to Dorian he was 250lbs + already an established Pro who beat Flex Wheeler , anyway Dorian beat him ouright with a torn bicep/tricep/quad and with a bloated gut , you think pre-injury Dorian wouldn't beat Ronnie with extra size and ho-hum conditioning ? athletes change some for the better in the case of Ronnie 98/99 and they change for the worse 2001 -on

Now Dorian may lose to Ronnie from 98/99 and maybe even with his 01 ASC form , but from then on he would never stand a chance , I could see if Ronnie was right on Dorian heels , placing close seconds ect, he was never close .

[pumpster]

Now Dorian may lose to Ronnie from 98/99 and maybe even with his 01 ASC form , but from then on he would never stand a chance , I could see if Ronnie was right on Dorian heels , placing close seconds ect, he was never close

Coleman improvement = Yates retirement.

Tier-B Olympia winner vs. one of the legends.

[NarcissisticDeity]

But it is your fault that this is getting off-topic once again.   

Peak Ronnie > Peak Dorian
Since you are so adamant in defense of the contrary, how about you begin to provide some sound information (supported by measurements or visual evidence) as to how peak Dorian could possibly eclipse peak Ronnie in a standard IFBB contest?

Lee Preist owns you  

[Hulkster]

Coleman improvement = Yates retirement.

Tier-B Olympia winner vs. one of the legends.

that comparison showcases how bad yates' upper body really was in comparison to Big Ron (arms, delts, chest) - thats a whole lot right there, never mind the quads and...etc.

no contest..

[NarcissisticDeity]

that comparison showcases how bad yates' upper body really was in comparison to Big Ron (arms, delts, chest) - thats a whole lot right there, never mind the quads and...etc.

no contest..

You're right there never was a contest  there was Dorian , 2nd , 3rd , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th , 8th and then Ronnie

[pumpster]

You're right there never was a contest   there was Dorian , 2nd , 3rd , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th , 8th and then Ronnie

He's like a parrot! 

[Praetor Fenix]

Again when Ronnie lost to Dorian he was 250lbs + already an established Pro who beat Flex Wheeler

His scale weight at that time doesn't mean anything. Its not as though this 250lbs was the same quality as his package in 1999. Secondly, you forget that a reigning Mr. Olympia rarely loses, even if the competition happens to be better the day of the contest.
1994, 2001, 2002 are relevant examples.
We shouldn't factor in the incumbent advantage the current Mr.Olympia has always enjoyed.

anyway Dorian beat him ouright with a torn bicep/tricep/quad and with a bloated gut , you think pre-injury Dorian wouldn't beat Ronnie with extra size and ho-hum conditioning ? athletes change some for the better in the case of Ronnie 98/99 and they change for the worse 2001 -on

Now you are wandering into the hypothetical again. We are comparing real peak forms.
None of this "what if" bullshit ... you can't combine pre-injury Dorian's best with more muscle.
While you're at it, why not give Dorian Flex's biceps and Platz's quadriceps...  

So you do acknowledge that Coleman improved in 1998-1999. Why do you continue to cite this 8:0 statistic when even you recognize that Coleman was better in '98 than he was in previous years. Why do you continue to ignore the incumbent advantage the Mr.Olympia will invariably enjoy? Ronnie beat Cutler in 2001, it doesnt necessarily mean Ronnie was better than Cutler on the day of the 2001 Mr. Olympia contest though.

Now Dorian may lose to Ronnie from 98/99 and maybe even with his 01 ASC form , but from then on he would never stand a chance , I could see if Ronnie was right on Dorian heels , placing close seconds ect, he was never close.

You keep repeating this argument, but you have yet to address my counterevidence.
I have clearly established that Ronnie would win 2003/2004 under standard IFBB protocol.
You have yet to prove otherwise.

[Hulkster]

So you do acknowledge that Coleman improved in 1998-1999. Why do you continue to cite this 8:0 statistic when even you recognize that Coleman was better in '98 than he was in previous years.

simple - its the ONLY way he can make Dorian seem superior.

After all the pics and video's don't show it....