You have no valid content, so you try to overwhelm me with sheer volume. Awesome.
You're right that I have no content: all of my content comes from the I.F.B.B regulations and judging books. I definitely don't have your creativity and imagination when it comes to judging bobybuilders' physiques.
Ronnie Coleman won the 2003 Mr. Olympia with straight 1st's. The fact that you insist that he doesn't even belong on a professional stage demonstrates that you are too biased to offer an objective assessment. You have written an abundance of bullshit, thats about it.
So fucking what? Dorian also won with straight firsts from
all judges, might I add, the 1997 Olympia. And guess what? He got it with a distended midsection- though not as badly as Ronnie's in 2003 -, torn muscles and imbalances in his physique.
Firstly, reigning Mr.Olympias do not lose, at least not at the Mr.Olympia. Ronnie in 2002 came in at 240+ lbs, with some abdominal distension and his worst conditioning ever. Cutler took him out on several of the mandatories, such as the side chest, abs-and-thighs and even on the back double biceps, his signature shot! And he won the
muscularity round, even though there were guys 30 lbs heavier and with a harder look than him! Furthermore, he was so soft that barely a cut was visible on his front quads, which used to be exploding with detail; his worst performance to date. And he still won.
In 2003 he came in with a vastly worse distension and slightly worst taper, but he was 40 lbs heavier and had good - not great- dryness. His level of details was clearly inferior to his lighter versions and no better than Dorian's at his 1993/5 versions. Yet, he won because, even though the horrendous distension too and worsened taper took many points from him - and yet he won the symmetry round as well, even though Jay's shoulder-to-waist ration was better than his! -, his sheer muscle volume made him win the muscularity round in such a way that, adding with the protocol that reigning Mr.Olymias don't win, gave him the contest. You're right that sheer mass win's a bodybuilder contests, even if it comes at the cost of a monster gut, gross imbalances and decreased separations. Of course, it wouldn't if judges actually followed the judging rules by the book.
Ok, listen to me. Ronnie's abdomen was completely flat during the pre-judging.
In the evening, it was only an issue in transition.
Regardless, Ronnie's abdominal distension pales in comparison to Yates' wide waist and overdeveloped obliques, which he can't hide from any angle.
You are quite good at isolating Ronnie's flaws, but then you fail to juxtapose them to Dorian's.
And you still have the galls to call me a liar! Ronnie's midsection was only flat when he sucked it in; as soon as he standed relaxed, the alien queen came to life and wanted to burst out of there! Myself and others have already supplied ample photographic evidence of Ronnie's distension on the pre-judging of the 2003 Olympia, and many pics are available online; I won't post them again, just for your convenience.
An issue of transition? Wrong. The distended midsection becomes a liability anywhere it's visible, which includes: all poses from the front, from the side and also when standing relaxed. Of course, it's needless to say that it completely ruins a bodybuilder's overrall look in the symmetry round - that is, unless you're the rulling standard-bearer. When it comes to the mandatories, the distended gut hinders:
The side triceps - Even when sucking the gut in, it's still visible becomes it creates a protusion on the upper part of the abdomen.
The abdominals-and-thighs - A no-brainer. Even though this is a front pose, the distension takes away from the flat appearance of the abdomen, making it look concave instead of flat. And don't forget that, in 2003, this would be made even worse by the fact that Ronnie abs definition - never great in the first place - became horrible. And the fact that Ronnie has structurally narrow hips makes this situation even worse, because it gave his waist a barrel appearance. Funny how some say, that Dorian is barrel-waisted, because this is exactly how I would describe Ronnie's waist in the 2003 rendition of the contest: concave to the sides. While Dorian's taper, in his 257 lbs version, is only slightly better than Ronnie's - which it is -, the main advantages Dorian has over Ronster is that he has flat, non-convex abs from the front on this pose and much, much superior separation on his abdominal muscles.
The side chest - Another no-brainer. This is actually even worse than the side triceps pose. Why? Because in the side tris shot the distended gut is partially hidden by the triceps, whereas in the side chest the gut has to be positioned forward to hit the shot.
Front lat spread - Ronnie always was good on this pose, but never as good as Dorian. In 2003, his delts and lats were considerably wider than in 1998. But unfortunately, his taper did not improve, because his waist also became thicker, thus maintaining the same delts-lats-to-waist ratio. And consider that the abs is also visible on this pose and Dorian had better abs than even the much better detailed 250+ lbs version of Ronnie; the 2003 version can't hold a candle.
But for all it does to hinder him in the mandatories, the distended gut and overdeveloped quads flat out makes him lose the symmetry round. You previously said that increased muscle size is always a good thing. Wrong: it is a good thing as far as muscularity goes, but it's only a good thing, when it comes to the symmetry round, if this growth is proportionally done by other muscles as well
and if the diameter of the bones can support it. As an example, Wheeler looked his best around 225 lbs; when he came in around 240 lbs, with the increased weight being mostly lean mass, he actually placed lower in contests. And so should Ronnie.
By no means is Ronnie's waist wider than Dorian's.
It very well may have grown in circumference over the years, but thats irrelevant Most white bodybuilders have wide waists. Its a genetic predisposition. Unrelated to drugs.
The same way most black bodybuilders have long calcaneal tendons (high calves).
Even if Ronnie's waist was slighter wider than Dorian's (which it is NOT), his taper would still be better due to slimmer obliques and significantly wider lats and delts.
Sorry, but this is only true when it comes to Ronnie's lighter versions. His obliques thickened over the years- the result of doing super-heavy squats - and his overral midsection detriorated in separations. His taper was clearly superior to Dorian, by a small margin. Ronnie's delts and lats widened over the years, but his waist widened even more. And you're forgetting that the taper, itself, is only when element when judging the midsection: the flatness and separations of the abs also come into place, two things that deteriorated massively as Ronnie became larger. I am going to say it flat out: the 257 lbs Dorian has
better taper than Ronnie, because the differential between his delt and waist is superior to Ronnie's. The fact that Ronnie managed to screw this up,
despite having genetically narrower hips goes to show how much he screwed up in 2003.
Bodybuilding is a visual sport dude. You even admit that his taper "appears" better, hence it is.
I agree with you that bodybuilding is a visual sport. So,
visually speaking, I can say this: Ronnie, in his 2003 version, looked like shit: he had a monster gut, humongous but soft quads and practically no back detail when standing relaxed.
Visually, he looked far more impressive when he was around 250 lbs, had a wasp-waist, cross-striations all over his body and still looked like a bodybuilder and not a powerlifter after a dozen liposuctions.
The actual measurements aren't important in bodybuilding. The sabodybuilder's 20" arms look significantly better/larger than another's equally large, yet less impressive, 20" arms.me way one
Funny that you say that when it suits you, but rejects it completely when it doesen't. As in the example of the triceps. Ronnie has an overrall larger triceps mass than Dorian. yet, Dorian's triceps are better, because, despite being smaller, his triceps insertion point is lower in the tendon attachment and the three heads are more symmetrically developed. And when it comes to the pose where the triceps comes into play, the side triceps, it just plain looks better. Ronnie's quad mass is clearly larger than Dorian's, yet Dorian's quads look better overral because they're harder
and more balanced with the calves and the whole proportions of the body than Ronnie's in his 2003 form. The 98 Ronnie had a huge advantage in separations, but Ronnie lost that when his quads became as big a cantaloupes.
You base this paragraph on one mistaken assumption. Ronnie's waist isn't wider. Case closed.
Besides, even if your assumption was correct, which it isn't, the analysis isn't true.
Jay Cutler has an excellent taper despite an extremely wide waist, for instance
.
Yes, they
are. The 257 lbs Dorian does have a smaller waist than Ronnie. This can be confirmed both with tape measurement as well as visually. You're correct that it wouldn't matter if Ronnie's shoulder-to-waist ration were more dramatic than Dorian. Which it isn't. When it comes to sheer taper, the 257 lbs Dorian flats out takes Ronnie in the front double biceps and the front lat spread. Better taper. And I'm not even including the quality of the midsection: the 257 lbs Dorian has a flatter stomach and more abs definition. Which results in: he wins the symmetry round. I'm very sorry to destroy your fantasies about your hero, but the 257 lbs Dorian takes the 287 lbs Ronnie out, in sheer taper, in all the ways that it's relevant
What the hell are you talking about? 
An increase in size, esp. the deltoids, doesn't necessarily indicate an increase in quality.
The waist isn't even a muscle, yet you are acting as though it is in this analysis.
I am utterly lost as to where you are headed with this.
I never said the waist is a muscle, you idiot. It's size is, however, affected by the muscles around it. Ronnie's increase in mass - besides the anabolics - was the result of doing very heavy compound, multi-joint lift, like the dead-lift and squat. When you use gigantic weights on this lifts, the abs and obliques are called into play indirectly, leading to their increase. The reason, why Shawn and Flex, always wen't lighter on the deads and squats is exactly because they didn't want to compromise their taper.
The point about the delts is that they
can or not increase with quality; the waist just can't, as far as bodybuilding goes. An increase in the girth of the waist is
always undesirable. Ronnie increased his delt width - but with a visible decrease in separation from his 1998 shape -, but his waist followed suit to an even greater degree, making his taper worse.
obliques, coupled with significantly wider lats and delts. I'm sorry, there is simply no bypassing this comparison. Ronnie's V-Taper is better by default simply because every element necessary for an upper-echelon taper is clearly in Ronnie's favor.
No, not in his 2003 version. Dorian, at his 1993/5 forms, had extremely dramatic taper on the front lat spread and abs-and-thighs shot. That's not open for debate. Sorry, but Dorian's 1993 form would take out Ronnie in most of the mandatories when it comes to taper, and the greater separation of his abs would win him the symmetry round.
You muist be fucking joking to say that the 280+ lbs version, of Ronnie, has great taper. As bad as it was, it was made worse by comparing it to Dorian's. I've posted the pic where he stands next to Dexter and Jay, doing the abs-and-thighs pose, several times and both take him out soundly in both taper and abs separation. Dorian's taper and midsection are just fantastic in comaparison. No contest. In fact, even the 1997 Dorian has a better abs separations than Ronnie, even if worse taper.
The unavoidable fact is the following: Ronnie has a smaller waist, less developedIt may be different if we were comparing them standing alone. The true test would be to have them side by side. Standing shoulder to shoulder, it would look really bad for Dorian to have a wider waist and wider obliques, yet be somewhat shorter in height with narrow delts and lats.
The unavoidable facts are as follows: Ronnie at 287 lbs has a worse shoulder-to-waist differential than Dorian, less abs definition, less hardness and balance. He loses the symmetry round flat out due to his distended gut and lower-body disproportionalities, the front lat spread, abs-and-thighs and the side triceps. His rear lat spread is slightly wider than Dorian's, but Dorian's christmas-tree and teres major are thicker and more detailed. In the back double biceps, the 257 lbs Dorian has greater details than Ronnie and comparable thickness. From top to bottom, back to front, Dorian takes Ronnie out in
all bodybuilding criterias except absolute muscle size. Game over.
Ronnie's delt-heads never lost separation. Nice try though...
[imhttp://www.ronniecoleman.net/6xo2.jpg[/img]
Well, it certainly didn't increase. And his delts, while massive, don't make his taper look good anyway, because his waist is thick, concave and with such poor abs definition. Too bad Ronnie's great delts only helps him in the most muscular - which, by the way, shows far less details than in his 250+ lbs form, despiter still being awesome.
OBLIQUES are not on the F*CKING WAIST ... self-proclaimed genius.
Ronnie's obliques were still detailed, yet without the overwhelming size that detracted from Dorian's taper and made his abdomen appear wider from nearly every angle.
You moron. The obliques might not be on the waist, but their increase in thickness completely hinders a bodybuilder's taper. Try to understand this: Ronnie's obliques, in 2003, were just as thich as Dorian's ever was, but with far less definition and with a horrendous concave shape. I'm going to post several pics - besidfes the several I've already posted - that will forever destroy any claims that Dorian's obliques, at 257 lbs, were any worse than Ronnie's at 287, or that his shoulder-to-waist ratio was better than Dorian's. You're so stupid that you've actually posted several pics of Ronnie with a waist as thick as Santa's and than told everyone how great it looked! Unbelievable!
You are full of shit. Ronnie was god-awful in 2002. He had distension that was comparable to 2001 minus 20-30 pounds of quality muscle. His waist was its usual width. You really don't know shit if you are under the mistaken impression that the waist can fluctuate in size like that from year to year. You are basing this entire assessment on the assumption that his waist actually flucutates from year to year, which is a gross mistake on your part. You are either making shit up completely or you truly are lost
...
Yes, Ronnie looked like shit in 2002. But he din't look half as bad as in 2003. I've seen the 2002 video and at least Ronnie still looked like a bodybuilder; a bad one, but still...In 2003, his waist didn't increase much in width, but his obliques thickened. You're an idiot for thinking that the width is all there is to it. No: it is a combination of his bad shoulder-to-waist ratio, thick obliques and lack of abs separation that made his midsection terrible. From the fron, his shoulder-to-waist ration was better than in 2002, because, even though his waist thickened, his delt increase was kore than sufficient to off-set that. Yet, the
quality of ther taper is not only the result of the shoulder-to-waist ratio, but also the shape of it. His monster abdominal distension made his abs cioncave from the front. This, coupled with decreased abs separation, made all the middle of his body look like shit.
round only.
2003 Ronnie Coleman most definitely did NOT have a shitty waist. It can't possibly get any slimmer for a man that size, and it is still considerably smaller than Dorian's in circumference.
You sound like every other newb in this forum who consistently confuses the waist with
No. Just plain wrong. I'll say it again: Dorian, at 257 lbs, has a more dramatic taper where it counts: on most mandatories and on the symmetry round. Game over.
Once again, Ronnie struggled with some minor distension in the evening
Lastly, I want to conclude with the following: abdominal distension is not as important as you and ND stress. I understand that is one of Ronnie's problems, but it is also one of Dorian's problems. The judges at the Mr.Olympia evidently don't prioritize a flat abdomen, or else neither of them would have won as many times as they did. Look at the 2004 posedown: Badell, Cutler, Ruhl, Schlierkamp - all of them have issues with their abdomens. Of course the IFBB would prefer a flat midsection to a distended one, but ultimately more important factors such as muscle size take precedent. Its not a coincidence that the Top 5 in the 2004 Challenge Round all happened to be the largest competitors in the show...
Suit yourself. As I've said, you're a mass-at-all-costs kind of guy. There's nothing wrong with that: myself, I like mass freaks. But I'm able to separate that from a
complete bodybuilding criteria. Youn say ridiculous things, such as that symmetry is about the left versus the right part of the body and the top to the bottom, when in reality Wayne DeMilia has stressed that symmetry is the relation of the size and shape of the muscles in relation to each other and to the shpe and size of the bones. Then, you say that "muscle maturity" is part of a bodybuilding judging round, when there is
no official guideline to that effect.
Same way you guys harp on Ronnie's calves. You blow up certain issues as though they are of extraordinary importance, when in fact that the IFBB would simply take it with a grain of salt. On the otherhand, you dismiss CRUCIAL elements that aren't in Dorian's favor, such as striations, muscle size, quad sweep, muscle separation, muscle maturity, symmetry, etc.
Ronnie's calves are just awful, both in size and shape.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
