Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce

[pumpster]

hahahahahahha Complete with Stalinesque moderators.

[the shadow]

So you are sitting down with the all-purpose, definitive edition of the IFBB's objectives / principles to your left, and several head-judges and bodybuilding officials to your right as you compose your replies??

I evaluate the photographic/visual evidence, consider exactly what is emphasized at the Olympia, and go from there. Most of what I write is not opinion because it is entirely objective.
RONNIE COLEMAN DOES HAVE BETTER QUADRICEPS. That is a fact. When you try to argue against this, it demonstrates that it is you who tosses aside any semblance of fact and dives right into the theoretical realm of your personal ideals and opinions.

Ronnie's quadriceps are better from the perspective of every single element associated with bodybuilding: size, separation, vascularity, striations, condition, hardness, sweep, balance b/w the individual muscles, crisp muscularity (as you like to say), delineations, symmetry, shape, etc.

Its not opinion when ANY criterium that applies to bodybuilding is in Ronnie's favor in this case.

Well I'm not exactly "moved" by your posts either, but I respond regardless of whether or not I agree or think you maintained an objective state of mind.

The fact that Ronnie has a better taper IS a fact. It is a very simple equation:
Thinner waist + Wider delts + Wider lats + Lower lat origins + Less oblique development.
That AUTOMATICALLY yields a superior V-taper.

You can't argue with any of those individual points above. White bodybuilders, on average, have considerably wider waists, same as black bodybuilders, on average, have considerably longer calcaneal tendons (or higher calves). I cite the racial statistics just to demonstrate that it is somewhat expected that Ronnie would have a smaller waist, from an entirely genetic perspective. That is not subjectivism. Ronnie's size alone demonstrates wider delts and lats. The pictures attest to less oblique development and lower lat origins. To argue against any one of those points listed above is to argue against FACT. I can't simply make that up, its readily apparent, and if any of those WERE in Dorian's favor, that would be apparent too but its not since every element that contributes to a good V-taper is to Ronnie's advantage.

I'm not saying it was Ronnie's all-time best V-taper, but it WAS much better than Dorian's.

You've ignored several multi-paragraph responses entirely!
With others, you selectively respond to certain points and ignore others.
Most of the time, you simply forge a response from scratch that is unrelated to my rebuttals.

Once again, what IFBB judging criteria? I'm sorry, going to the IFBB's webpage and briefly perusing through their public documents in search of elements that favor Dorian's, whereas overlooking or intentionally ignorning those that support Ronnie, does not constitute the right to say your views are based solely on the official IFBB criteria.

You mention them, but then fail to factor them into the big picture. You form your defense based on Dorian's few strengths, but don't take that extra step by then comparing them to Ronnie's and weighing the

Besides, Dorian in 1997 wasn't your template. I thought 1993 was?
Regardless, admitting that the competitor had some flaws in the year you are not using as your basis for the assessment is deceitful since ultimately it doesn't matter in the context of the debate what he looked like in 1997.

Its the equivalent of me lamenting how Coleman looked in 2002 but failing to acknowledge his shortcomings in '03 relative to Dorian. I always concede Dorian's advantages, I never attempt to argue against them, but I do recognize that they are few and hopelessly outweighed by Ronnie's advantages, both in terms of the sheer quantity of advantages and the fact that they are usually of greater significance/weight since the items in question are larger or more prominent.

You've said multiple times that you would stop debating with me. That is your prerogative.
It makes no sense though to keep reitterating that promise and not follow through with it.
I think ND recommended you stop debating with me since your arguments are self-incriminating.

The transparency and weakness characteristic of your argument reflects poorly on ND  
I can see why he "tactfully" suggested that you quit arguing with me, for your own good lol
Seriously though, your arguments are often more self-incriminating than my subsequent replies!

 
- Better taper(beyond didpute) (Previously refuted with insurmountable evidence)
 - More chiseled midsection
- Wins the front lat spread, abs-and-thighs, side chest, side triceps and the back double biceps.
- Wins the symmetry round flat out. (No way in hell, explained below)

Once again, Ronnie has better left-right symmetry. Dorian's quads, upper arms, pecs, traps, upper back, and delts don't match. Ronnie's left and right are perfectly, absolutely uniform.
From top to bottom, Ronnie wins due to a better taper, bigger arms that are in better balance with his torso, Dorian's midsection/waist are too wide and detract from his physique. Couple that with Dorian's nonexistent quad-sweep, Ronnie would win top-to-bottom too.
Ronnie's only weakness from top-to-bottom is quad/calve size differential.

Dorian's biceps, deltoids, hamstrings, and glutes are way too bad to win the back-double-bicep.
His triceps are not beefy enough so they have a poor hang. Ronnie's upper back is broader, thicker, wider, with deeper separation with arms elevated due to 3Dimensional crevices and contours. All Dorian would have on Ronnie in this pose is calves and lower back (surprise).
Not enough to compensate for hamstrings, glutes, delts, biceps, triceps, traps, AND lats.
Their difference in forearms, unlike ND's insistence, is negligible.

Side tricep: Ronnie's triceps are larger and more detailed, but with genetically inferior shape.
That said, Ronnie's quadriceps, glutes, thinner waist, chest, delts, AND biceps would more than compensate for Dorian's minor advantages in tricep shape, calves, and abdominal clarity.
Dorian's ABDOMINALS are not better, only their condition, shred, and detail. From the muscularity standpoint, Ronnie's abdmonials would exceed Dorian's, so their greater muscularity would nearly compensate for the inferior condition, if not fully, then certainly partially.
Regardless, Ronnie easily wins this pose. The signature bodypart, triceps, is outclassed by Ronnie due to greater size, striations, and detail in the triceps muscle.
Dorian's lateral head has a better shape, but Ronnie's IS wider, even if it looks thinner relative to his physique as a whole, and YES, JUDGES DO EVALUATE ABSOLUTE SIZE AS WELL AS RELATIVE SIZE.

Side Chest: Ronnie wins easy. Bigger and better biceps, coupled with better delts, better chest. Side chest obscures the abdomen, so Dorian would gain no advantage for his midsection condition. Ronnie wins hamstrings, quadriceps too. Dorian's only advantage in this pose is calves.
Even IF the judges give Dorian forearms (which they wouldn't), thats still only an advantage in two (exceedingly minor) bodyparts, as opposed to 6 MAJOR bodyparts, including the signature bodyparts that define the pose (biceps and chest). Remember, Coleman's chest is larger, more symmetrical, more detailed, AND he doesn't have the sternocostal abberation which is a deficiency where Dorian can't build muscle on the lower portion of his sternum, a glaring deficiency I might add.

Lat Spread: Ronnie wins pectorals, lat width, lat thickness, arms, quadriceps, and delts.
Once again, Dorian only has calves and abdominal conditioning. Ronnie still outclasses Yates midsection in the muscularity department. Coleman has a leaner waist with a better taper, paramount to victory in the front lat spread. Couple that with significantly better size and muscular detail, its really no contest whatsoever.

Ab/Thigh: More contentious? No.
Ronnie wins quads, quad sweep, taper, chest, lats, arms. Ronnie's overall size/width is superior.
Dorian wins calves and abdominal condition. Wider waist w/ inferior taper. No quad sweep.
Exceedingly easy assessment. Ronnie wins. Goodnight.

And sorry, a superior conditioned midsection will not win the Mr. Olympia, or else Ahmad Haidar would be a multiple Mr. O defending champion.

monster retarded debate......!!!!!!!!!!

[Praetor Fenix]

No quad sweep which according to you guys is a prerequsite for a proper X-frame so nice try.

Its anatomically impossible to have NO quadricep sweep. As long as you have a vastus lateralis, assuming it isn't completely atrophied, you will invariably have some lateral width on your thigh.

When I stated that Dorian has "no sweep", I said that in relation to Ronnie Coleman. After 200+ pages you still don't seem to understand the difference between relative and absolute.

Ronnie Coleman's vastus lateralis development is significantly better. Couple that with a leaner waist, less developed obliques, wider delts, and wider lats. Consequently, Ronnie Coleman MUST have a better X-frame.

Lee Haney has an X-frame too. His quadriceps are not nearly as wide, but his waist is VERY thin and he has an excellent V-taper. Its all ratios ND. A very wide quadriceps sweep is a necessity in order to compensate for a congenitally thick waistline, but if the waist is naturally slim then the extra lateral quad mass is not required.

The problem with Dorian - he had minimal vastus lateralis development AND a wide waist.
His V-taper was poor due to the circumference of his waist AND conspicuously large obliques.
In order to have a good X-frame, Dorian would need larger quadriceps w/ better sweep and/OR a thinner waist. His lats were plenty wide, but not as wide as Coleman in 2003, and they would need to be quite a bit wider than Coleman's to offset the naturally greater girth of his waist.

You see ND, an X-frame is simply a consummation of several previously indepedent, irrefutable bodybuilding principles:
- Wide lats are preferential to narrow lats
- A small waist is preferential to a large waist
- Large quads w/ lateral development are preferential.

You can't deny any single one of the previous 3 principles individually.
As a result, you can't deny the importance of an X-frame since it is merely the union of those 3 relatively independent principles into the consummate whole ... the big picture, if you will.
THE BIG PICTURE THAT YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE. 


See, the criteria you posted says nothing about rewarding muscle size, muscle symmetry, striations, vascularity, density, or even conditioning. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It isn't even judging criteria ND, its just a rough sketch outlining what items the judges are to evaluate.
It doesn't say HOW to evaluate Items A - X, it simply says to evaluate A - X.

That guide is not all-comprehensive, and it certainly isn't definitive.
It really doesn't matter if a general element in not explicitly listed in that particular text.

[ribonucleic]

Bump.

Because I don't think this issue has received enough consideration yet.

[pumpster]

Because I don't think this issue has received enough consideration yet.

Do it for the children.

[Hulkster]

picture perfect example of vascularity adding impressiveness

[Hulkster]

You see ND, an X-frame is simply a consummation of several previously indepedent, irrefutable bodybuilding principles:
- Wide lats are preferential to narrow lats
- A small waist is preferential to a large waist
- Large quads w/ lateral development are preferential.

I have stated this before to ND, but he is too dumb to get it.

He thinks that because there is no mention of the specific term "x-frame" in his online judging info that the judges don't care.

the fact is, they have always cared.

If you didn't know ND has been around the sport for while, you would think he was new to the sport.

He says judges only care about V-taper, but can't grasp the concept that since the judges also care about thigh sweep that they are in actual fact looking at the X-frame, since:

V-taper + thigh sweep = X-frame

Its really very simple.

But again, because Dorian's X-frame is not as good as Ronnie's, he has to make it sound like it is an irrelevant trait.

It is not.

And it never has been.

[Hulkster]

Haney had a much better X-frame than yates. Thighs are a part of it, not the only thing that matters. Besides, Haneys quads had much better shape and sweep than yates - its the sweep that really helps with the look of the X-frame.

Dorians thighs were much larger no doubt. But that doesn't help in the taper department. Not at all.

[pumpster]

Here's a good comparison: 

[nicorulez]

Once again, ND you talk out of your ass.  You go on about Yates winning the muscularity round 8-7.  I was at the show and from the waist up there was no contest.  Haney had a better chest, back, shoulders and dare say it arms.  His waist was tighter in the offseason than Dorian's has ever been.  Dorian's legs were bigger, but Haney's legs were more cut.  Everybody in the contest was impressed because Yate's was the first legit bodybuilder near Haney's size with the required conditioning.  However, Achim Albrecht was probably the biggest dude on stage; he was that era's Marcus Ruhl (the original German Blitzkrieg...nice guy also as I got to meet him).  Regardless, Haney won the remaining round with perfect scores or close to it.  He really dominated the night show.  He would have won three of the next four Mr. Olympia's if he decided to compete.  I agree that Yates would have outmuscled him in 1993 and won if Haney brought the same package, but in 1994/1995 it would have been all Haney.  Yates, ND, had one really good year.  Get used to it.  To deny Yate's progressive decline from 1994 onward is lunacy (granted, 1995 he looked good but nowhere near 1993).

[pumpster]

FYI looking at this pic reminds that I spoke with Brian, Ron's trainer a couple of months ago about Coleman entering the World's Strongest Man just after retirement before he loses too much strength. If he lost some weight, worked on his speed & practiced the events for a while first I would love to see him head-to-head with Mariusz..that would be @#$#@$@# awesome!

The publicity for Coleman & BB would be huge.

[nicorulez]

Amazing thing is Pumpster, if Puds would have competed in bodybuilding, he would have waxed Dorian's ass.  Even Ronnie would have something to worry about if this guy got serious.  Amazing.  Check out the link below for more info.  This is one strong MOFO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pudzianowski

[toty21]

picture perfect example of vascularity adding impressiveness

Wowwww...those are some SERIOUS ASS soccer ball shoulders!! This guy is a true titan. 

[pumpster]

I'll take Mariusz's physique over Yates any day..

[jandal.ninja]

haneys physique and form would not cut the top 5 in todays competition - so trying to compare against dorian then against coleman is really a no brainer. my point has always been you cant compare the physiques because they are dominant for the time they were competing.

Yes Ronnie is huge and muscular now. Where was he when Dorian was dominating? the question really is if dorian had not retired and still followed through the years, would he have beat Ronnie? i really don't know - Dorian could have exploded in size just to keep up with Ronnie...who really knows?
Comparing the 2 just aint right because Ronnies form is different to the standards set in the 90's

blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah 

[delta9mda]

Once again, ND you talk out of your ass.  You go on about Yates winning the muscularity round 8-7.  I was at the show and from the waist up there was no contest.  Haney had a better chest, back, shoulders and dare say it arms.  His waist was tighter in the offseason than Dorian's has ever been.  Dorian's legs were bigger, but Haney's legs were more cut.  Everybody in the contest was impressed because Yate's was the first legit bodybuilder near Haney's size with the required conditioning.  However, Achim Albrecht was probably the biggest dude on stage; he was that era's Marcus Ruhl (the original German Blitzkrieg...nice guy also as I got to meet him).  Regardless, Haney won the remaining round with perfect scores or close to it.  He really dominated the night show.  He would have won three of the next four Mr. Olympia's if he decided to compete.  I agree that Yates would have outmuscled him in 1993 and won if Haney brought the same package, but in 1994/1995 it would have been all Haney.  Yates, ND, had one really good year.  Get used to it.  To deny Yate's progressive decline from 1994 onward is lunacy (granted, 1995 he looked good but nowhere near 1993).

i was there too and to say haneys arms, delts,  were better aint really true and as far as chest haneys was better, back haney was thincker but his condition was not as good as yates. but, this could get rediculous.

[delta9mda]

haneys physique and form would not cut the top 5 in todays competition - so trying to compare against dorian then against coleman is really a no brainer. my point has always been you cant compare the physiques because they are dominant for the time they were competing.

Yes Ronnie is huge and muscular now. Where was he when Dorian was dominating? the question really is if dorian had not retired and still followed through the years, would he have beat Ronnie? i really don't know - Dorian could have exploded in size just to keep up with Ronnie...who really knows?
Comparing the 2 just aint right because Ronnies form is different to the standards set in the 90's

blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah  blah blah blah blah blah 

very much agree

[nicorulez]

Delta, we agree to disagree but I feel that Haney had a quality of muscle maturity that Yate's lacked.  Whay do you think of Albrecht.  He had wider shoulders than Cutler even.  I feel if he could have filled out some, he may have been a contender.  His arms, however, were relatively weak compared to his torso, but man was he a big dude.  Also, jandal, the bigger Dorian got the worse he looked.  No, he could not have competed with Ronnie on size alone.  No way did he ever have the structure to hold 285 pounds plus cut to ribbons.  No, Dorian was incredible at 257 lbs and that is where he could have competed (yet lose) with Coleman.

[jandal.ninja]

these are all what ifs anyway - we will never know...

[NarcissisticDeity]

Delta, we agree to disagree but I feel that Haney had a quality of muscle maturity that Yate's lacked.  Whay do you think of Albrecht.  He had wider shoulders than Cutler even.  I feel if he could have filled out some, he may have been a contender.  His arms, however, were relatively weak compared to his torso, but man was he a big dude.  Also, jandal, the bigger Dorian got the worse he looked.  No, he could not have competed with Ronnie on size alone.  No way did he ever have the structure to hold 285 pounds plus cut to ribbons.  No, Dorian was incredible at 257 lbs and that is where he could have competed (yet lose) with Coleman.

This is Yates at 275lbs and he's very hard in this condition , he guest posed at over 300lbs with a visable x-mass tree and abs , believe me he can carry size very well , those B&Ws he was almost 270lbs and could have won the Olympia in that condition.

[nicorulez]

True true.  Kind of fun to speculate, though.  Great 4th to everybody. Peace.

[suckmymuscle]

picture perfect example of vascularity adding impressiveness

  Really...? At first I thought that was Coleman holding his gut...  ;D

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[NarcissisticDeity]

 Really...? At first I thought that was Coleman holding his gut...  ;D

SUCKMYMUSCLE

LMFAO now that was funny !!

[pumpster]

What's funnier is that this shot of Yates' gut combined with 17" arms is for real!! 

[NarcissisticDeity]

What's funnier is that this shot of Yates' gut combined with 17" arms is for real!! 

Not worse than this lol