Author Topic: Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce  (Read 3567234 times)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16125 on: December 07, 2006, 05:46:35 PM »
I'm sure they would compare well if Marky juiced to the tits.

Discuss this.

No one has compared well to Bob Paris yet juiced or not .

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16126 on: December 07, 2006, 05:47:40 PM »
I guess I'm not as bright as you give me credit for , please elaborate on the blatant argument from authority .

Do you know what argument from authority is?

'The judges placed Dorian first and Ronnie sixth.'

'The judges are more educated and knowledgable about bodybuilding.'

'Therefore Dorian was better than Ronnie by the placings indicated.'

This is argument from authority.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16127 on: December 07, 2006, 05:48:40 PM »
Do you know what argument from authority is?

'The judges placed Dorian first and Ronnie sixth.'

'The judges are more educated and knowledgable about bodybuilding.'

'Therefore Dorian was better than Ronnie by the placings indicated.'

This is argument from authority.

Oh okay Dorian placed first because he met the criteria better than everyone else thats the argument from commonsense .  :)

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16128 on: December 07, 2006, 05:50:49 PM »
Oh okay Dorian placed first because he met the criteria better than everyone else thats the argument from commonsense .  :)


Yeah that's cool.

Now all you need to do is demonstrate why the criteria is right  ;D

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16129 on: December 07, 2006, 05:56:28 PM »

Yeah that's cool.

Now all you need to do is demonstrate why the criteria is right  ;D

Now I know what you meant by argument from authority because Hulkster uses the argumentum ad populum  in his defense of Ronnie being better

actually I don't need to demonstrate the criteria is right because both are judged under that criteria so if you feel the the criteria is at fault and have some other form of criteria you want to gauge the two on feel free to present it , if its based on popularity Ronnie wins Dorian loses but seeing both men compete(d) in the IFBB I'll use their criteria and accept it on good ' faith ' its right.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16130 on: December 07, 2006, 06:01:52 PM »
Now I know what you meant by argument from authority because Hulkster uses the argumentum ad populum  in his defense of Ronnie being better

actually I don't need to demonstrate the criteria is right because both are judged under that criteria so if you feel the the criteria is at fault and have some other form of criteria you want to gauge the two on feel free to present it , if its based on popularity Ronnie wins Dorian loses but seeing both men compete(d) in the IFBB I'll use their criteria and accept it on good ' faith ' its right.



yeah, argument from consensus is obviously equally as bogus.


the problem is, though (for you), you're saying that Dorian beats Ronnie according to IFBB criteria, although it's probable that Dorian would lose based on popular consensus. Let's break this down.

What is popular consensus in this context? Merely the sum of applications of personal preference- assessment of both, evaluation in terms of popular personal preference.

However, you insist on referring to the IFBB criteria. What is IFBB criteria? Merely an assemblance of personal preference- the personal preference of those who put together the judging criteria. So, you end up saying that the personal preference of the IFBB criteria-formers is somehow superior to popular personal preference.

You don't defend this claim, except for alluding to the higher knowledgability of those involved in the minority. Hence, argument from authority.

In reality, however, you are alluding to an assemblance of personal preference as much as anyone invoking consensus is.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16131 on: December 07, 2006, 06:12:35 PM »


yeah, argument from consensus is obviously equally as bogus.


the problem is, though (for you), you're saying that Dorian beats Ronnie according to IFBB criteria, although it's probable that Dorian would lose based on popular consensus. Let's break this down.

What is popular consensus in this context? Merely the sum of applications of personal preference- assessment of both, evaluation in terms of popular personal preference.

However, you insist on referring to the IFBB criteria. What is IFBB criteria? Merely an assemblance of personal preference- the personal preference of those who put together the judging criteria. So, you end up saying that the personal preference of the IFBB criteria-formers is somehow superior to popular personal preference.

You don't defend this claim, except for alluding to the higher knowledgability of those involved in the minority. Hence, argument from authority.

In reality, however, you are alluding to an assemblance of personal preference as much as anyone invoking consensus is.

The criteria is what we have to work with it may be a compilation of ' personal preferences ' buts the law so to speak its what we have to work by , its how contests have been judged and continue to be judged . how can we compare the two if we don't have any guidelines? the point if their personal preferences are more valid than ours is a matter of semantics


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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16132 on: December 07, 2006, 06:17:50 PM »
The criteria is what we have to work with it may be a compilation of ' personal preferences ' buts the law so to speak its what we have to work by , its how contests have been judged and continue to be judged . how can we compare the two if we don't have any guidelines? the point if their personal preferences are more valid than ours is a matter of semantics




actually, it's not. what it means is that the very best you can do is say that an IFBB judge would put Dorian over Ronnie (which is debatable). Whereas, I can say, it's the other way around- and the other six billion people in the world agree with me.

And that's the end of the discussion- it can't progress, till you address why your set of criteria is better. Untill you do that, both camps will continue shouting at each other with no result.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16133 on: December 07, 2006, 06:26:44 PM »

actually, it's not. what it means is that the very best you can do is say that an IFBB judge would put Dorian over Ronnie (which is debatable). Whereas, I can say, it's the other way around- and the other six billion people in the world agree with me.

And that's the end of the discussion- it can't progress, till you address why your set of criteria is better. Untill you do that, both camps will continue shouting at each other with no result.

I've never claimed that the judges would most certainly put Dorian first I've always maintained that my position is debatable , based on their criteria there is a high probability that Dorian would beat Ronnie

and then you're using the argumentum ad populum which is faulty because your six billion people who agree with you don't trump the 13 IFBB judges

And again its NOT my set of criterion its the IFBBs and by virtue of it being the sole criteria that these two competed and won their Mr Olympia titles its the criteria that I am using and why would I use any other criteria? and you haven't presented an alternative unless its the argumentum ad populum which is not how contests are judged and even using that as the baseline I've already conceded that Dorian would lose

But my opinion are argument SOLELY revolve on the personal preferences known as the IFBB Professional Mens Bodybuilding criteria.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16134 on: December 07, 2006, 06:52:10 PM »
I've never claimed that the judges would most certainly put Dorian first I've always maintained that my position is debatable , based on their criteria there is a high probability that Dorian would beat Ronnie

and then you're using the argumentum ad populum which is faulty because your six billion people who agree with you don't trump the 13 IFBB judges

And again its NOT my set of criterion its the IFBBs and by virtue of it being the sole criteria that these two competed and won their Mr Olympia titles its the criteria that I am using and why would I use any other criteria? and you haven't presented an alternative unless its the argumentum ad populum which is not how contests are judged and even using that as the baseline I've already conceded that Dorian would lose

But my opinion are argument SOLELY revolve on the personal preferences known as the IFBB Professional Mens Bodybuilding criteria.

I'm not. I'm simply saying that I could respond in that fashion, and you couldn't criticise, given your use of argument from authority.

Is the Ronnie camp arguing from the perspective of relativity to IFBB criteria, or just a straight-out comparison?

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16135 on: December 07, 2006, 07:52:54 PM »
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Is the Ronnie camp arguing from the perspective of relativity to IFBB criteria, or just a straight-out comparison?

we are arging relative to the IFBB criteria.

Problem with the dorian side is that they do not understand the difference between the actual literal text of the criteria and the actual implementation of these criteria in terms of an actual contest.

For example, no where in the criteria does it say anything specifically about taper, vascularity, hell, the word striations is not even mentioned.

Now the dorian side is claiming that because of this, these attributes are ignored by the judges.

Problem is of course, is that only a true novice to bodybuilding would every try and argue that these attributes are not considered advantages in a bodybuilding contest by the panel of judges.

sure, we know andreas munzer never won anything because of his strations.  but the fact is, if he had Ronnie's shape and size, he most certainly would have.

The dorian side does not undestand that the criteria as they are layed down are still only a guide to judging. They are not the explicit points that are considered and nothing else is.

If that were the case, Ronnie would not have won anything because most of what is so good about his physique (detail, size and taper) is not even specifically mentioned in the criteria themselves.

However, given that the criteria are merely a suggested guide -a framework if you will - all of these attributes that he or anyone else has ARE considered and ARE judged accordingly.

The Dorian side does not understand this, among many other things.


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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16136 on: December 07, 2006, 08:49:07 PM »
we are arging relative to the IFBB criteria.

Problem with the dorian side is that they do not understand the difference between the actual literal text of the criteria and the actual implementation of these criteria in terms of an actual contest.

For example, no where in the criteria does it say anything specifically about taper, vascularity, hell, the word striations is not even mentioned.

Now the dorian side is claiming that because of this, these attributes are ignored by the judges.

Problem is of course, is that only a true novice to bodybuilding would every try and argue that these attributes are not considered advantages in a bodybuilding contest by the panel of judges.

sure, we know andreas munzer never won anything because of his strations.  but the fact is, if he had Ronnie's shape and size, he most certainly would have.

The dorian side does not undestand that the criteria as they are layed down are still only a guide to judging. They are not the explicit points that are considered and nothing else is.

If that were the case, Ronnie would not have won anything because most of what is so good about his physique (detail, size and taper) is not even specifically mentioned in the criteria themselves.

However, given that the criteria are merely a suggested guide -a framework if you will - all of these attributes that he or anyone else has ARE considered and ARE judged accordingly.

The Dorian side does not understand this, among many other things.






Maybe that's because the criteria was written long before such remarkable features were achieved (striations, graphic vascularity etc)? ???

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16137 on: December 07, 2006, 09:14:08 PM »


Maybe that's because the criteria was written long before such remarkable features were achieved (striations, graphic vascularity etc)? ???

could very well be.

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Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16138 on: December 07, 2006, 09:17:44 PM »


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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16139 on: December 08, 2006, 04:33:31 AM »
Ronnie Coleman will forever be remembered for losing the Olympia in the most spectacular manner.








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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16140 on: December 08, 2006, 04:36:29 AM »
Monster lip development. LOL


suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16141 on: December 08, 2006, 06:26:21 AM »
again, how did I contradict myself? I didn't say Dorian was wider and then later say Ronnie was.

  No, you said they were the same width, and then provided no evidence whatosoever for that besides a few pics based on your inaccurate visual assessment. At first, you were arguing about the how wide they were, and then you changed that to how wide they look. I don't really care what you think based on a few out of angle pics you've posted; you either prove they were the same width or you don't. So far, you haven't.

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Your analogy is horrible b/c I'm not talking about comparing a mountian and a building. I'm comparing 2 bodybuilders who are almost the same height and weight.

  The analogy is appropriate, because the only difference is scale. I used a hyperbolic example to elucidate my point. The bottom line is that, in all the pics you presented, Dorian and Ronnie are being filmed from slightly different distances, and that affects how big they appear visually. Since your argument is based on trying to prove that Ronnie was as wide as Dorian with visual evidence, it sucks.

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ere's a video of Ronnie and Dorian onstage together under the same conditions (lighting, camera angle, distance, etc) that proves they were the same width. You're going to have to do better than that kiddo. ;)

  Who said so? You? Can you prove that they're facing the camera from the same angle and distance exactly? No, you can't. And since this is of paramount importance for making your case based on visual evidence, you are wrong.

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yes, it is purely visual you dumbass since nobody measured their lats. We are only left with pics and videos. How the hell else are we supposed to compare who was wider? I already proved Ronnie was just as wide as Dorian.

  Exactly my point, "dipshit". Since you can't measure their respective lat widths, all we are left with are conjectures. Regardless, my point from the start was that, basing on an empirical evaluation of their respective physiques, Dorian had slightly wider lats than the 1999 Ronnie. You, conversely, said that they were the same width and then didn't prove shit. Nice try, dumbshit.

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what a sad, pathetic little creature you are. You have been reduced to hiding behind semantics b/c I have defeated all your other arguments.

  Awwwwwww...NeoSperminole is getting frustrated because he's arguing with someone more intelligent than him. :'( Just like in the case of your pathetic assertion that cause and effect is not explained by logic, in which you unsuccessfuly tried to sound pedantic and I crushed you. You haven't defeated even a single one of my arguments, kid. In fact, I have given you a lesson on bodybuilding 101. Oh, and also in analytical philosophy, metaphysics, physics, cosmology, mathematics, etc. ;D ;)

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Whether you said Dorian looks wider, or claimed he was, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

  No it is not: it makes all the difference.

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You act like by saying Dorian looked wider instead of straight out affirming that he was grants you some kind of immunity from providing evidence, yet you zealously defend your argument that he was wider than Ronnie. ::)

  I said that based on the fact that they were the same weight and yet Dorian was drier and Ronnie had larger quads, what made them weight the same was most likely the fact that Dorian's lats were wider and thicker. Dorian might have slightly thicker bones, but Coleman has heavier bone density due to his race, so that even out, methinks.
 
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anecdotal evidence hardly disproves what I said. Face it, you are wrong.

  How can I be wrong about a claim I never made? You are the one who has failed to prove your point empirically.

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but Dorian is not wider in the video. Go check for yourself.

 Are you sure?

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ha ha ha, you're too afraid to circle it now b/c you know it will just make you look retarded. Please enlighten us all and circle Ronnie's "poor brachialis" so that we all may see. This will be good. ;D

  Like when you circled Dorian's and Ronnie's lats on different pics, from different angles, etc, and tried to make the point that Their lat mass was equivalent based on that? What an idiot you are, NeoSperminole. :-X

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not even close kiddo! Posting a pic of 1 muscle head of one muscle of the arm is hardly proof that Dorian's arms held their own against Ronnie's.

  I think that th eside triceps, being an entire mandatory, i pretty important to illustrate that Dorian was able to hold his own against a bodybuilder who outweighed him by 30 lbs in the arm department. Dorian's arms also hold their own in the back double biceps, because this pose emphasizes the lateral triceps head and the delts, just like in the side triceps. Dorian's arms were great, dumbshit. Get over it!

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16142 on: December 08, 2006, 06:30:00 AM »




is vince wearing an eye patch?
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suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16143 on: December 08, 2006, 06:42:48 AM »
I never tried to explain causality with logic. The law of cause and effect, as given to me by usmokepole, cannot be assumed b/c it contradicts itself. I already explained why using 1 empirical and 2 logical objections.

  No, you have not. I have refuted your argument soundly. And my argument is not his, so that's irrelvant. Logic does not need to justify itself, because it is an a priori axiom that a specific for of reality is based on. My contention is that reality shares with both mathematics and language several propoerties, and that is of being axiom-bound(definition) systme that relies in perception to exist. In other words, reality is a closed systm that contains itself. This is why saying otherwise is a tautology.

  And by the way, just because there was an original cause des not mean that there was a cause that preceeded it. The original cause is a definition of a pattern of interaction between two given properties, and such interaction only exists if you perceive it as such. In this sense, free will exists because, while each reality contains all the paradoxes into themselves, and has all the problems and solutions already determined, there are infinite possible realities, in the sense that that there are infinite causes that you may volitionally choose.

  Volition is already factored in, because meta-reality might choose to allow volition to exist, and this means that, while there are infinite potentials of you having infinite "destinies", as potnetials, meta-reality, which transcends reality, might choose to not know what your choices might be. In this sense, the other yous are having "destinies", but you have free will, and meta-reality changes the "destinies" of the other yous if you choose to make their decisions. ;)

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16144 on: December 08, 2006, 06:48:44 AM »
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No, you said they were the same width, and then provided no evidence whatosoever for that besides a few pics based on your inaccurate visual assessment. At first, you were arguing about the how wide they were, and then you changed that to how wide they look.

SUCKY's Alzheimer's prevents him from remembering that he's just copying and posting the same misinformation from  yesterday. Nothing's ever supported by any proof though.

He's simple enough that he believes that his contorted self-indulgent diatribes actually distract from evidence pointing in the opposite direction. Here's the PROOF-Coleman overwhelming Yates, even when smaller, in '96. Yates looks like an amateur in comparison, the contrast is striking. No one else believes or buys this crap about "angles" and "lighting" BTW. It's a disingenuous argument spun quite deliberately. No one else buys it, as proven in the following thread:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=111054.0

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16145 on: December 08, 2006, 07:59:03 AM »
SUCKY's Alzheimer's prevents him from remembering that he's just copying and posting the same misinformation from  yesterday. Nothing's ever supported by any proof though.

He's simple enough that he believes that his contorted self-indulgent diatribes actually distract from evidence pointing in the opposite direction. Here's the PROOF-Coleman overwhelming Yates, even when smaller, in '96. Yates looks like an amateur in comparison, the contrast is striking. No one else believes or buys this crap about "angles" and "lighting" BTW. It's a disingenuous argument spun quite deliberately. No one else buys it, as proven in the following thread:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=111054.0


regardless of what was said or even if coleman is wider, here is the end result of the above pic in case you forgot.

dorian - 1st place with a perfect score
coleman - 6th place

all those attributes you say coleman has, he had when he and dorian competed against each other.

look how well ronnie did against dorian.

he was never more than 5 fucking places away from him.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16146 on: December 08, 2006, 08:57:49 AM »
The camera is slightly angled and Coleman is closer to the camera than Yates is. It's just an illusion making Coleman look bigger. I recently posted pics of Yates from the same contest making Coleman 2003 look small.

P.S. Yates is still pwning Coleman on detail in this comparison.


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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16147 on: December 08, 2006, 09:15:24 AM »
No, you said they were the same width, and then provided no evidence whatosoever for that besides a few pics based on your inaccurate visual assessment. At first, you were arguing about the how wide they were, and then you changed that to how wide they look. I don't really care what you think based on a few out of angle pics you've posted; you either prove they were the same width or you don't. So far, you haven't.

I'll ask you again, where did I contradicit myself? I didn't say one thing and then contradict myself by saying the opposite. I'm still arguing that Ronnie and Dorian were the same width. The reason I said "look" earlier is b/c I was refering to the fact that both appear the same width when compared side-by-side. This only backs up what I've been saying. I have provided plenty of evidence to support my claim whereas you have provided nothing. C'mon, let's see your proof.









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Who said so? You? Can you prove that they're facing the camera from the same angle and distance exactly? No, you can't. And since this is of paramount importance for making your case based on visual evidence, you are wrong.

excuses excuses ;)

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Awwwwwww...NeoSperminole is getting frustrated because he's arguing with someone more intelligent than him. Just like in the case of your pathetic assertion that cause and effect is not explained by logic, in which you unsuccessfuly tried to sound pedantic and I crushed you. You haven't defeated even a single one of my arguments, kid. In fact, I have given you a lesson on bodybuilding 101. Oh, and also in analytical philosophy, metaphysics, physics, cosmology, mathematics, etc.

how am I getting frustrated when you have yet to pose a challenge to me? Don't flatter yourself son. You're nothing more than a "high-functioning down syndrome patient." I already told you the definition of cause and effect given to me by usmokepole is different than the defintion you gave. He said there is a law which says everything that happens was caused by something else. Therefore, all your comments addressed to me are irrelevant b/c you are arguing under a different rubric.

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Like when you circled Dorian's and Ronnie's lats on different pics, from different angles, etc, and tried to make the point that Their lat mass was equivalent based on that? What an idiot you are, NeoSperminole.

ha ha ha, all talk and no show. The reason I asked you to circle his brachialis muscle is b/c I knew you would realize that you're wrong. Now you are trying to save face by dropping the issue - "I bet if I don't respond, then everybody will just forget about it." ::)

Come on you little bitch of a man. Why don't you show us Ronnie's "poor brachialis" for everyone to see?



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I think that th eside triceps, being an entire mandatory, i pretty important to illustrate that Dorian was able to hold his own against a bodybuilder who outweighed him by 30 lbs in the arm department. Dorian's arms also hold their own in the back double biceps, because this pose emphasizes the lateral triceps head and the delts, just like in the side triceps. Dorian's arms were great, dumbshit. Get over it!

The side triceps illustrates only 1 head of one muscle. This is the only part of the upper arm that Dorian holds his own. Ronnie destroys him in the other 2 heads of the triceps, the brachialis and biceps. Dorian had good arms for an amateur, but mediocre for a pro let alone a Mr. Olympia. Get over it!

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16148 on: December 08, 2006, 11:58:10 AM »

actually, it's not. what it means is that the very best you can do is say that an IFBB judge would put Dorian over Ronnie (which is debatable). Whereas, I can say, it's the other way around- and the other six billion people in the world agree with me.

And that's the end of the discussion- it can't progress, till you address why your set of criteria is better. Untill you do that, both camps will continue shouting at each other with no result.

  The criteria is better for two reasons. First, we need an objective crietria for evaluating physiques. Otherwise, all we have is a bunch of people arguing that they prefer some guy over another because they just do. To avoid this, an objective criteria was deviced.

  When the I.F.B.B came up with it's criteria back in the 1960s, they sat down and asked themselves the question:"What is it that makes a bodybuilder great?". They came to the reply that this is what makes a bodybuilder great:

 - Muscularity - The development of the muscles. All things considered, the more muscularity that better, because this is what distinguishes a bodybuilder from someone who doesen't work out with weights.

 - Symmetry - This is divided in two criterias: struture and proportionality. Struture refers to the skeletal frame. A great bodybuilding frame is one that emphasizes masculinity, with the clavicles being as wide as possible, the hips as narrow as possible. Height is also relevant, because it is a male attribute.

  Proportionality refers to the symmetrical development of muscles in relation to each other. When a muscle overpowers the other, then that's bad symmetry.

 Conditioning - This is the most subjective of the three, but it still has objective criteria to it. In essence, as a bodybuilder drops bodyfat and/or sub-cutaneous fat, his muscle separations increases. Things like vascularity and striations also increases. However, when you drop bodyfat and sub-cutaneous water, another thing happens: the muscle look harder, or denser.

  So, in essence, "logic", the best bodybuilder is the one who presents the most symmetrical muscle on the best frame and with the best conditioning, from most angles. It's as simple as that. ;)

  Now, what makes the I.F.B.B judges or that of any other federation better than random fans? Three things:

 1. They are unbiased - While judges certainly have their personal preferences, no bodybuilding contest is judged by a single judge. The Olympia has a dozen judges, as well as other top pro shows. The personal opinion of a given judge is mitigated by that of another, and so on. Think of the system of checks and balances of a democratic system. Furthermore, while they do have a certain margin to exercise their preferences, they still have an objective criteria to follow.

 2. They follow a stable and complete evaluation sytem - Unlike the random opinion of fans, which is entirely biased and gives preference to certain things over another, the criteria that judges follow gives consideration to all possible aspects that can be evaluated in a physique, except things that are very subjective or unimportant, like vascularity and striations. Furthermore, unlike the random opinion sof fans, the evaluation system takes into consideration all these things year after year. This gives a basis for comparison, because it would make no sense to compare to Mr,Olympias who had been judged by two different evaluation systems. Now, there are slight modifications to these criterias, but tend to remain more or less stable since the 1960s.

 3. They know more - Of course they do. It is arrogant to assume otherwise. While bodybuilding is subjective to fans, the judges have seen up-front tousands of bodybuilders in hundreds of different contests, and they applied about the same criteria at all of them, so it reasonable to assume that, even when they interject some of the obectivity of the evaluation system with their personal preferences, these preferences are based on mentally comparing gradients of excellency that these judges have witnessed. ;)

  So now that you that, why would Dorian Yates, in all likeness, defeat Ronald Coleman? Let's see:

 Muscularity - Ronnie 2003 might defeat Dorian here, although it evens out in conditioning. With respect to Ronnie 1999, Dorian wins overrall. At the very least, it's a tie.

  Symmetry - Dorian's structure is flawed, in the sense that he has relatively wide hips. But Coleman also has a flawed struture, with a long torso and relatively short legs. As for symmetrical development, none of the two has any major flaw - as you would expect from two guys at the top of the top of the game -, but Ronnie has more relatve weaksnesses. Dorian has weak biceps, but Ronnie's calves are very weak for his size. Furthermore, Ronnie has large, unmanly glutes and quads that overpower his body from the front. Overrall, Dorian wins here. ;)

  Conditioning - At best, it's a tie: Ronnie has more separations overrall and striations, but Dorian has grain that he lacks. I personally prefer Dorian's grain, but others might prefer otherwise. One thing is not debatable, though: Dorian had less sub-cutaneous water.

  Tha mandatories are essentially the same as the relxed round, except that it involves muscle contracting. It show-cases struture, the amount, symmetry and the conditionin gof muscles distributed on it. The only mnadatory that Ronnie wins convincingly is the front double biceps. Back double biceps

SUCKMYMUSCLE


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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #16149 on: December 08, 2006, 12:27:08 PM »
we are arging relative to the IFBB criteria.

Problem with the dorian side is that they do not understand the difference between the actual literal text of the criteria and the actual implementation of these criteria in terms of an actual contest.

For example, no where in the criteria does it say anything specifically about taper, vascularity, hell, the word striations is not even mentioned.

Now the dorian side is claiming that because of this, these attributes are ignored by the judges.

Problem is of course, is that only a true novice to bodybuilding would every try and argue that these attributes are not considered advantages in a bodybuilding contest by the panel of judges.

sure, we know andreas munzer never won anything because of his strations.  but the fact is, if he had Ronnie's shape and size, he most certainly would have.

The dorian side does not undestand that the criteria as they are layed down are still only a guide to judging. They are not the explicit points that are considered and nothing else is.

If that were the case, Ronnie would not have won anything because most of what is so good about his physique (detail, size and taper) is not even specifically mentioned in the criteria themselves.

However, given that the criteria are merely a suggested guide -a framework if you will - all of these attributes that he or anyone else has ARE considered and ARE judged accordingly.

The Dorian side does not understand this, among many other things.




One how can you argue relative to the IFBB criteria when you never even knew the criteria at the start of this thread? when you cherry-pick the criteria even after I posted it

And you're dead wrong about the criteria NOT stating anything about taper here is the criteria for the front latspread

Front Lat Spread (see Figure 2)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet a
short distance apart, the competitor will place the open
hands, or clenched fists, against, or gripping, the lower
waist or obliques and will expand the latissimus muscles.
At the same time, the competitor should attempt to
contract as many other frontal muscles as possible. It
shall be strictly forbidden for the competitor to pull up on
the posing trunks so as to show the top inside of the
quadriceps.
The judge should first see whether the competitor can
show a good spread of the latissimus muscles, thereby
creating a V-shaped torso. Then the judge should
continue with the head-to-foot survey, noting first the
general aspectsof the physique and then concentrating on


The judges look for a Good spread of the lats thereby creating a V-shaped torso . You however think because Ronnie has a better V-taper this is automatically is an unbeatable edge in Ronnie's favor which is nonsense . this is the criteria for the rear latspread

Back Lat Spread (see Figure 5)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
place his hands on his waist with his elbows kept wide,
one foot back and resting on the toes. He will then
contract the latissimus dorsi as wide as possible and
display a calf contraction by pressing downward on the
rear toes. The competitor should make an effort to
display the opposite calf to that which was displayed
during the back double biceps pose so the the judge may
assess both calf muscle equally. It shall be strictly
forbidden for the competitor to pull up on the posing
trunks so as to show the gluteus maximus muscles.
The judge will look for a good spread of the latissimus
dorsi, but also for good muscle density and will again
conclude with the head-to-foot survey.


The judges look for a good spread of the lats NOT the best spread of the lats , you mistakenly think that the guy with the widest back and best V-taper is the automatic winner and again its nonsense.

Guys like Shawn Ray & Flex Wheeler who are NOT know for their lat width beat many men who were much wider , Flex Wheeler beat Ronnie Coleman eight times and he was never once had wider lats and a better V-taper , Shawn Ray beat Ronnie Coleman & Kevin Levrone both who far surpassed him on lat width , having a wider back and a better taper isn't an advantage that would shift a contest one way or the other

Striations ? this again isn't a contest winner and your logic is fantastic when it comes to striations , Ronnie has more in his chest so he'd win , Ronnie has more in his glutes so he'd win , Ronnie has straited triceps Dorian doesn't so he'd win , Dorian has plenty of striations in his lower lats and lower back , his obliques & intercostals , glutes ,  chest . striations aren't always an indication of conditioning you can have plenty of striations and still be holding water , see Ronnie 2000 , 2003 , 2004

Vascularity I mean give me a fucking break seriously


Quote
Now the dorian side is claiming that because of this, these attributes are ignored by the judges.

Problem is of course, is that only a true novice to bodybuilding would every try and argue that these attributes are not considered advantages in a bodybuilding contest by the panel of judges.

sure, we know andreas munzer never won anything because of his strations.  but the fact is, if he had Ronnie's shape and size, he most certainly would have.

No one is claiming these go ignored they're just not accurate , the guy with the widest back and best V-taper isn't an automatic winner , a guy with more striations than another isn't going to be declared the winner because of that , same with the guys with more veins these are imaginary advantages that will not shift a contest one way or the other

Quote
The dorian side does not undestand that the criteria as they are layed down are still only a guide to judging. They are not the explicit points that are considered and nothing else is.

If that were the case, Ronnie would not have won anything because most of what is so good about his physique (detail, size and taper) is not even specifically mentioned in the criteria themselves.

However, given that the criteria are merely a suggested guide -a framework if you will - all of these attributes that he or anyone else has ARE considered and ARE judged accordingly.

The Dorian side does not understand this, among many other things.

And the criteria is a guideline however they are VERY specific as to what they're looking for once again you're dead wrong ! why do you keep insisting you know the criteria when you constantly misquote it wrongly?

When assessing a competitor’s physique, a judge should follow a
routine procedure which will allow a comprehensive assessment of
the physique as a whole. During the comparisons of the
compulsory poses, the judge should first look at the primary
muscle group being displayed. The judge should then survey the
whole physique, starting from the head, and looking at every part
of the physique in a downward sequence, beginning with general
impressions, and looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density and definition. The downward
survey should take in the head, neck, shoulders, chest, all of the
arm muscles, front of the trunk for pectorals, pec-delt tie-in,
abdominals, waist, thighs, legs, calves and feet. The same
procedure for back poses will also take in the upper and lower
trapezius, teres and infraspinatus, erector spinae, the gluteus
group, the leg biceps group at the back of the thighs, calves, and
feet. A detailed assessment of the various muscle groups should
be made during the comparisons, at which time it helps the judge
to compare muscle shape, density, and definition while still
bearing in mind the competitor’s overall balanced development.
The comparisons of the compulsory poses cannot be overemphasized
as these comparisons will help the judge to decide
which competitor has the superior physique from the standpoint of
muscular bulk, balanced development, muscular density and
definition.


thats the baseline and thats pretty damn specific and thats NOT even going into all the mandatories , Ronnie has some edges against Dorian according to this criteria and Dorian does as well , however I think Dorian meets ALL of the requirements better than Ronnie in fact at his best better than anyone !