Hit con man John Heart is wrong again.

[Humble Narcissist]

Any natural will gain more from volume than HIT. A lot more. As an example look at prisoners. Many of those guys are jacked as fuck with no steroids, supplements and an awful diet. They get that way from doing lots of volume.

[IroNat]

If your training didn't work then it's because of the following reasons (pick at least one):

1) You didn't train hard enough you pussy.

2) You didn't eat right you schmuck.

3) You over-trained you dumbsh*t.

5) You didn't ingest "Weider Massive Muscle Powder" you cheap bastid.

6) You need to up the dose you panty-waist.

[Humble Narcissist]

If your training didn't work then it's because of the following reasons (pick at least one):

1) You didn't train hard enough you pussy.

2) You didn't eat right you schmuck.

3) You over-trained you dumbsh*t.

5) You didn't ingest "Weider Massive Muscle Powder" you cheap bastid.

6) You need to up the dose you panty-waist.

7) you didn't take Ultimate Orange for a pre workout supplement.

[IroNat]

7) you didn't take Ultimate Orange for a pre workout supplement.

Forgot the pre-workout...thanks!

[Van_Bilderass]

The real issue remains unchanged. Dorian’s system was not Arthur Jones style HIT. It was a modified, practical, drug era, elite bodybuilder hybrid using heavy ramping, multiple exercises, low to moderate volume, extreme effort, and careful recovery. It is not proof that classic one set HIT is the best way to train.
So the HIT crowd can’t have it both ways. Either Dorian was a hybrid case who adapted the method heavily, or you admit HIT is so loosely defined that almost any hard bodybuilding routine can be called HIT.

So your contention is that Arthur Jones advocated for less volume than Dorian did? I'm going to look it up shortly, perhaps you are right. In any case Dorian's lifting wasn't the exact sane as every other pro's like many on the forums have claimed. Mentzer certainly made it much more brief; IIRC his last programs were, for example for quads, to hold the legs extended on the leg extension for 20 seconds, every two weeks, that's it LOL. I remember he said he trained one of the Barbarian brothers and had him do one set of leg extentions for 20 reps, two weeks later he did another set and his legs were as big as ever. From an untrained state LOL.

Personally I'm convinced you "need" very little volume to "max out." When I was at my biggest I did that deadlift workout of 12 total reps once a week. I did maybe one set of leg curls and one set of face pulls plus one set of calves that same workout. Every 2-3 weeks I did an upper body session. People at work were like fuck man you're really swole, how much are you lifting? I told them I couldn't even say I was really lifting and they thought I was full of shit.

[Van_Bilderass]

7) you didn't take Ultimate Orange for a pre workout supplement.

Forgot the pre-workout...thanks!

To tie stimulants and HIT together, I have a vague recollection of Charles Poliquin saying that no one could do Mike Mentzer style lifting without taking amphetamines while listening to Wagner pre-workout like he did, it was too draining. Something to that effect LOL. I couldn't immediately find it via google (hate when that happens).

Other lifters told me I was "strong" and I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten as strong as I did without my beloved ephedrine, which I used nearly every day for like 15 years straight LOL. For me personally, stimulants really help getting into the mood of lifting hard. The motivation has to be there without them but I think they really add to it. Most of the pre-workouts today are pretty crappy so I go with Rx stims which I feel are actually healthier than some of the OTC stuff out there. But even with a crappy caffeine and beta-alanine overdose PWO the "rush," along with the itching from the beta-alanine LOL, once your brain has associated it with lifting, can help put you into working out mood every time you take it. Everything starts in the mind so stims can really help

The UK has some nasty looking PWOs still, look like heart attack in a bottle LOL. My buddy picked up this one, I haven't tried it yet, and here's just 3 of the ingredients. It's over the counter with a colorful label, must be safe right LOL.

[Van_Bilderass]

So your contention is that Arthur Jones advocated for less volume than Dorian did? I'm going to look it up shortly, perhaps you are right.

Rmj11 is this in your opinion much less volume than Dorian did?

[Van_Bilderass]

More...

[BB]

.

I'll never forget almost doubling my reps on bench after chugging it down. Way better than Mentzer's piss shake I bet.....

[Van_Bilderass]

.

I'll never forget almost doubling my reps on bench after chugging it down. Way better than Mentzer's piss shake I bet.....

Unless Dan hid something illegal in there, you guys can still get some ephedrine, but most Americans are just too stupid and buy crappy PWOs instead LOL. The market has been completely dry here for the longest time, maybe 15 years. On the last days before the ephedra ban I remember I bought 30 bottles of an ephedra stack from a buddy who got it cheap since he was sponsored. Didn't last me long LOL. After that I was using Pakistani 30mg ephedrines which I ordered from the UK but now there's nothing. UK guys, can you still get ephedrine? If so, pleeease get me a hook-up LOL. Seriously.

These were my go to in the late 90s. A whopping 50mg per tab.

[BB]

Dorian's training logs -

https://archive.org/details/dorian-yates-training-journal-dorian-yates-croker-2016-compressed/Dorian%20Yates%20Training%20Journal%20-%20Dorian%20Yates%20%28Croker2016%29_compressed/page/n2/mode/1up .

Some Dorian fan put up a bunch of stuff there.

[Van_Bilderass]

Dorian's training logs -

https://archive.org/details/dorian-yates-training-journal-dorian-yates-croker-2016-compressed/Dorian%20Yates%20Training%20Journal%20-%20Dorian%20Yates%20%28Croker2016%29_compressed/page/n2/mode/1up .

Some Dorian fan put up a bunch of stuff there.

Thanks.

What's your take on what I'm debating Rmj11 about? Especially whether Dorian did more or less volume than Jones would have prescribed? I don't know if Dorian could have survived those Jones routines done exactly as is. Too much stuff in a single workout, especially the mixing of upper and lower.

[BB]

Unless Dan hid something illegal in there, you guys can still get some ephedrine, but most Americans are just too stupid and buy crappy PWOs instead LOL. The market has been completely dry here for the longest time, maybe 15 years. On the last days before the ephedra ban I remember I bought 30 bottles of an ephedra stack from a buddy who got it cheap since he was sponsored. Didn't last me long LOL. After that I was using Pakistani 30mg ephedrines which I ordered from the UK but now there's nothing. UK guys, can you still get ephedrine? If so, pleeease get me a hook-up LOL. Seriously.

Tried repro-ing it with Bronkaid, Primatine, etc..., plus all the ancillaries. Never got them to measure up to Ultimate Orange. Part of me wonders if some of it is just old good memories, i.e. you never forget your first stack, etc..... but none had the same feeling. I've also seen lab reports on the original version, the Ephedra count was off a decent bit, but there wasn't any secrets .

[Griffith]

Yates has said in an interview he used to take an ephedrine tablet before every workout.

[Van_Bilderass]

Tried repro-ing it with Bronkaid, Primatine, etc..., plus all the ancillaries. Never got them to measure up to Ultimate Orange. Part of me wonders if some of it is just old good memories, i.e. you never forget your first stack, etc..... but none had the same feeling. I've also seen lab reports on the original version, the Ephedra count was off a decent bit, but there wasn't any secrets .

Many feel stimulants like ephedrine quickly lose effectiveness or the "magic." It never happened to me for some reason, if anything tolerance even went down. I mean I used to take 3+ 50mg tabs a day in the beginning which was just too much later. I remember a couple of powerlifters telling me they took a dozen 25mg tabs before lifting LOL

Many feel the roids today aren't the same either, which I've argued endlessly doesn't make any sense. We were all young and fresh "back then" and the first exposure is usually the best

[BB]

Thanks.

What's your take on what I'm debating Rmj11 about? Especially whether Dorian did more or less volume than Jones would have prescribed? I don't know if Dorian could have survived those Jones routines done exactly as is. Too much stuff in a single workout, especially the mixing of upper and lower.

It's complicated. Looking at the logs, as it goes on there's almost a high - low, and instinctual element to it. I definitely don't think he could've done well with Jones's mixing. Volume is tricky, as sometimes he's close or at Jones's volume numbers, etc...
Then with training age and more injury, you get a mix of heavy low, and then, even some instinctual, as he pushes some things, and backs off on others.

Later, post those written logs, it gets more Mentzerian.

So, like everyone's training, it was an evolving thing.

[Van_Bilderass]

It's complicated. Looking at the logs, as it goes on there's almost a high - low, and instinctual element to it. I definitely don't think he could've done well with Jones's mixing. Volume is tricky, as sometimes he's close or at Jones's volume numbers, etc...
Then with training age and more injury, you get a mix of heavy low, and then, even some instinctual, as he pushes some things, and backs off on others.

Later, post those written logs, it gets more Mentzerian.

So, like everyone's training, it was an evolving thing.

Thanks. He said he used steroids on a 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off cycle. He also advices trainees to go really hard for 5-6 weeks and then train shy of failure for a couple of weeks, and possibly even taking a week off completely from the gym. Now he says he trained too hard and heavy especially during prep which caused his injuries; it was just hard to modify what had worked so well in the beginning. I think he said somewhere now he would only have done 5 minutes of cardio but more intense.

I think overall Yates figured out what worked beautifully. Even the gear plans looked extremely good, in my opinion, considering what info was available pre-internet. Most were not intelligent and logical and regimented enough to set things up like he did, it was just haphazard for most of us. He also apparently had great gear connections, especially the GH, I know for sure even many top pros weren't so lucky always. I've seen first hand and heard second hand how crappy it was a lot of times. Things probably work better if you track everything very closely, lifting but also gear and diet, and then adding the instinctual or feedback element.

Regarding volume, I've tried high on occasion. Like this past year, which I mentioned in the training thread, I tried going hard and heavy and frequent on my arms for many months. The Basile idea of trying to stay sore constantly. But I just don't think it works any better than for example once a week for just a few hard sets. Maybe if you are going from an untrained state back to your previous best you can increase frequency initially to expedite the regaining. And I haven't really seen increased volume do much for anyone else either. Going harder with more purpose, yes. Just my opinion

Random Mentzer pic:

[beakdoctor]

Many feel stimulants like ephedrine quickly lose effectiveness or the "magic." It never happened to me for some reason, if anything tolerance even went down. I mean I used to take 3+ 50mg tabs a day in the beginning which was just too much later. I remember a couple of powerlifters telling me they took a dozen 25mg tabs before lifting LOL

Many feel the roids today aren't the same either, which I've argued endlessly doesn't make any sense. We were all young and fresh "back then" and the first exposure is usually the best

Ha! Ephedra, caffeine and aspirin was the best back then. Once I came across some vicodin and added that in there as well. Felt like I could walk through a brick wall.

The pre-workouts today substitute ephedra with Yohimbe or Alpha Yohimbe. I don't know. Any version of Yohimbe gives me the worst anxiety.  Something I never experienced with ephedra.

[Van_Bilderass]

Ha! Ephedra, caffeine and aspirin was the best back then. Once I came across some vicodin and added that in there as well. Felt like I could walk through a brick wall.

The pre-workouts today substitute ephedra with Yohimbe or Alpha Yohimbe. I don't know. Any version of Yohimbe gives me the worst anxiety.  Something I never experienced with ephedra.

Was a long time since I last used yohimbine. It's been used experimentally to induce anxiety. It was the ED pill before Viagra. I never tried them but several supp companies had ECA stacks with added yohimbine as well. That PWO is posted above has the alpha-yohimbine as well, a very crazy and potentially deadly stim cocktail

Haha I remember your Vicodin inclusion in the stack. I've tried a few pain killers with stims. Two or three acetaminophen/codeine combo pills with Vyvance is very nice, my training partner always had those codeines in his gym bag and would share

[Humble Narcissist]

Ha! Ephedra, caffeine and aspirin was the best back then. Once I came across some vicodin and added that in there as well. Felt like I could walk through a brick wall.

The pre-workouts today substitute ephedra with Yohimbe or Alpha Yohimbe. I don't know. Any version of Yohimbe gives me the worst anxiety.  Something I never experienced with ephedra.

Did the Vicodin allow you to carry out sets longer because of less pain?

[Van_Bilderass]

Did the Vicodin allow you to carry out sets longer because of less pain?

Nasser said other bodybuilders claimed they used Nubain so they could train harder but instead they trained like grandmas LOL. It's of course typical to try to fool others or even yourself about the real reason for using narcotics, the real reason being emotional pain.

Of course it's possible for pain killers to allow one to train harder. Even a non-narcotic like acetaminophen can help and there's plenty studies. My training partner was a complete mess and he would just complain on and on about his pain despite the pills which he'd taken every day for 15 years. He did train like a maniac though, harder than anyone I've ever seen, was a world class competitive lifter. For me, the codeine allowed for some of my best workouts but some combos made me feel too good. If you actually get euphoric you don't really care about lifting; some anxiety is good and necessary for best lifting IMO. Please excuse the long posts but I think there might be some food for thought in there somewhere

[beakdoctor]

Did the Vicodin allow you to carry out sets longer because of less pain?

It's a systemic effect. Not just major pains but minor aches. Knees don't hurt, elbows don't hurt, no lower back pain. No fatigue or muscle soreness.  Overall you feel lighter because you're pain free. Its a good feeling and your mood and even energy increases. I mean, it's no different than many drugs in that it gets you 'high', its just more of a physical high than a mental high but there's a mental boost as well.

The aspirin opens up your arteries, the ephedra opens up your lungs, the caffeine starts pumping super oxygenated blood through your wide open arteries and you feel no pain. You feel fucking fantastic. Loved it. Wish I had some vicodin right now.

[Humble Narcissist]

It's a systemic effect. Not just major pains but minor aches. Knees don't hurt, elbows don't hurt, no lower back pain. No fatigue or muscle soreness.  Overall you feel lighter because you're pain free. Its a good feeling and your mood and even energy increases. I mean, it's no different than many drugs in that it gets you 'high', its just more of a physical high than a mental high but there's a mental boost as well.

The aspirin opens up your arteries, the ephedra opens up your lungs, the caffeine starts pumping super oxygenated blood through your wide open arteries and you feel no pain. You feel fucking fantastic. Loved it. Wish I had some vicodin right now.

Your lucky you didn't get addicted.

[Van_Bilderass]

Your lucky you didn't get addicted.

The risk is very real and very serious, though I wonder how many of those who happen onto a smaller quantity of pills get addicted. I'm a very 'addictive personality' I think, plus I'm a depressive with very high anxiety so should be extra vulnerable. Quite a few years ago I on occasion was handed 100-200 of those 30mg codeine pills which I ate continuously until out and I didn't get addicted and had no cravings. I have used Kratom a few times for a few months but I had no problem stopping, now it's banned so can't get any and haven't thought about it. Most recently I was taking Oxycontin for a couple of months via Rx out of absolute necessity really. I was really worried when the script ran out as I should have developed some physical addiction at least but luckily I just felt mildly off for about 48 hours. Luckily. In the UK you can get various OTC pain killers with an added 8mg of codeine and I was watching a docu about it where some were hooked from the first dose and it quickly escalated to 100 pills a day, they claimed!!!

A buffy of mine warned me to do everything possible to handle my pain without Oxycontin and the like as he is now on on methadone after having been treated with opioids so much due to several lengthy hospital stays of like 6 months+. It's good advice for sure. There's something positive about the very restrictive Rx policy over here.