How the NPC and Jim Manion solved a no win situation

[HowieW]

By creating the Team Universe national drug tested national show,the NPC did something good. They gave bodybuilders a choice. While the general public is all freaked out over steroid use, we have known and calmly accpeted the fact that roids were part of the game.
However, many of us in the sport wanted a viable drug free avenue to compete and liked the NPC. By keeping the other national pro qualifiers as NON tested, they dealt with the reality of what many want in the sport. They also included figure/fitness/masters/novice /teen and Jr classes at most shows. This allows anyone to find a show and contest division that is "right" for them.
I only wish that the federal drug laws could understand this logic and allow people a reasonable choice, no more , no less.

[240 is Back]

Howie, as physics is a junior/senior class and your kids are clearly off for the summer, it is good to have you back.

This summer, you may want to focus on stories about Monica Brant.  That whole gear/non-gear thing is so summer 2005.

[HowieW]

Howie, as physics is a junior/senior class and your kids are clearly off for the summer, it is good to have you back.

This summer, you may want to focus on stories about Monica Brant.  That whole gear/non-gear thing is so summer 2005.

LOL, ok ok, hehehehehe.
Bottom line is this:
1. Unlike most pro sports the fans in bodybuilding actauuly support roid use and prfer pros  useing them.
2. To compete on level playing field a guy has to use or lose.
3. If they use they risk breaking the law just to compete .
4. If the IFBB and NPC  banned drug use with strcit acorss the board testing , mny fans would stop going to shows.
5. Unless more fans feel like me, the IFBB and NPC and are in a no win situation.
(a)Obey the law and lose the fans or  (b)please the fans and deal with possible bad PR and guys getting busted. It is a NO WIN deal for them.

I wish they could let them do whatever and let us all decide which kind of contest we wanted.
At least the NPC had the good sense to provide choice.
Howard

[buffbodz]

I know a few Team Universe competitors of past.  Drug free?  Not really.  The got around the test by using pro-hormones.  They raised the serum testosterone levels, like roids, but were legal at the time.  They could claim natural and just show a bottle of andro while using pro like cycles.

[timfogarty]

I agree Team Universe is no more natural than the IFBB World Amateur Championships.

If they are really testing, why has there never been an announcement of someone failing the drug test and losing his placing.  Surely they haven't had a 100% pass rate.

[HowieW]

I know a few Team Universe competitors of past.  Drug free?  Not really.  The got around the test by using pro-hormones.  They raised the serum testosterone levels, like roids, but were legal at the time.  They could claim natural and just show a bottle of andro while using pro like cycles.

Maybe some guys did that ,but if they did it sure didn't look like they did. Look at Jose Raymond, the guy is incredible  and competes at just under 170 lbs. Don't tell me he has to be taking major amounts and hides it either, I mean c'mon there are plenty of guys that compete at his ht and wt. He wins because of his incredible genetic muscle shape.

I think it speaks volumes of the lack of integrity and character of some bodybuilders when they might try and sneak a drugged body into the ONLY drug tested national NPC show, when they can compete in plenty of other NON tested events.

My main  point was that the NPC took some actual steps to help provide and venue for the ntural bodybuilder to compete at.I think they did a great job and still do.
Howard

[timfogarty]

Don't tell me he has to be taking major amounts and hides it either, I mean c'mon there are plenty of guys that compete at his ht and wt.

let me guess: 

doing 1000 mg test/week + GH + insulin = not natural

doing 200 mg test/week = natural

[HowieW]

let me guess: 

doing 1000 mg test/week + GH + insulin = not natural

doing 200 mg test/week = natural

Look I have no idea if Jose Raymond sneaks in some juice or not . In my opinion he does NOT, I mean c'mon the guy competes at just under 170 lb....ONE HUNDRED and SEVENTY lbs, c'mon, how juiced is that.

[timfogarty]

it's not the size, but the hardness and striations that I don't think is possible without performance enhancing drugs

[onlyme]

I know personally a member of Team Universe and his connections and history.  He is FAR from natural. 

[dookie]

it's not the size, but the hardness and striations that I don't think is possible without performance enhancing drugs

indeed

I know personally a member of Team Universe and his connections and history.  He is FAR from natural. 

exactly the problem with these "drug free" competitions.  also i dont understand what constitutes drug free.  if someone did a cycle here and there, and then didnt do one for a year, are they clean....since the reality is most of the competitors fall in this category.

[timfogarty]

exactly the problem with these "drug free" competitions.  also i dont understand what constitutes drug free.  if someone did a cycle here and there, and then didnt do one for a year, are they clean....since the reality is most of the competitors fall in this category.

natural contests usually state the length of time required to be drug free.  Team Universe, like the IFBB international amateur events, is suppose to be 3 years drug free.   Musclemania is suppose to be 365 days.  INBA and WNBF contests 5 and sometimes 7 years drug free.  occasionally you'll find one that is suppose to be lifetime drug free (and that often includes recreational drugs)

[onlyme]

I can't remember the name of it but I used to sell a product that could mask the results from drug tests at my store.  It was guaranteed 200% of the purchase price if it failed.  It was a drink.  I sold allot of them.  And not once did anyone not pass the drug test.  At least they didnn't come tell me

[HowieW]

natural contests usually state the length of time required to be drug free.  Team Universe, like the IFBB international amateur events, is suppose to be 3 years drug free.   Musclemania is suppose to be 365 days.  INBA and WNBF contests 5 and sometimes 7 years drug free.  occasionally you'll find one that is suppose to be lifetime drug free (and that often includes recreational drugs)

That is why I honestly see no future in the "drug free" shows. The reason I gave the NPC credit is becuase they made a valid attempt to let naturals compete in one national show ( team U) and others in the regular NON tested national events. The fact that some drugged guys "sneak in" to the Team Universe is beyond comprehension to me when they can compete in a million other NON tested events. When Jim Manion gave the bodybuilders a real valid choice, they could at least be honest enough to choose natural or UNtested routes and then go for it.

You seem like a reasonable and decent guy Tim and OnlyMe has been around this game a long time as well.

It really comes down to personal ethics and personal integrity of behalf of the bodybuilders. Sadly, that appears to be lacking in much of the bodybuilding world.
Howard

[timfogarty]

The reason I gave the NPC credit is becuase they made a valid attempt to let naturals compete in one national show ( team U) and others in the regular NON tested national events.

they make a much less valid attempt than does the INBA/ABA or WNBF.  Those orgs announce the results of their drug tests, disqualify those who fail, and sometimes even ban athletes for life.    has anyone ever been DQed from Team Universe for failing the drug test?  My understanding is that failing the drug test simply means you don't go to the World Amateur Championships.  you don't lose your placing and if you won the overall, you don't lose your pro card.

[HowieW]

they make a much less valid attempt than does the INBA/ABA or WNBF.  Those orgs announce the results of their drug tests, disqualify those who fail, and sometimes even ban athletes for life.    has anyone ever been DQed from Team Universe for failing the drug test?  My understanding is that failing the drug test simply means you don't go to the World Amateur Championships.  you don't lose your placing and if you won the overall, you don't lose your pro card.

No I suspect they don't enforce it as much as other organiazations. My point was not that they had an ideal drug testing program but  how they accpeted that some bodybuilders juice and others don't then give them shows to compete in. When you have a valid choice, their should be no reason to cheat and sneak into the Team U.

It is ironic how a bodybuildining organization loses fame and prestige when it makes strong moves to end drug use and enforce drug tests , etc. Things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmm 

The IFBB pro shows like the ASC and OLympia are huge events and everyone is juiced to the gills.
The natural organizations that really test and enforce it are small and hardly get any media...go figure.

Can you imagine baseball fans cheering even louder for Barry Bonds now knowing he juices and booing or being critical of the guys that didn't?? ( Like Ruth and Aaron).When I accpet that truth it makes me wonder why I would bother to ever compete again. It seems futile to follow the rules when the "real rules" are the exact opposite ya know.

[timfogarty]

When you have a valid choice, their should be no reason to cheat and sneak into the Team U.

that pro card is a great incentive.

and my point was that they give lip service to having a natural contest.    there are many guys who would like to compete in truly natural contests in the NPC.   they don't because they know the guys winning are not drug free.

publish the results.  DQ people who fail.  ban people who fail.  (want a real drug free contest?  also require a test 3 and 6 months before the event.)  it may take a few years, but such a contest in the NPC would become popular.

[HowieW]

that pro card is a great incentive.

and my point was that they give lip service to having a natural contest.    there are many guys who would like to compete in truly natural contests in the NPC.   they don't because they know the guys winning are not drug free.

publish the results.  DQ people who fail.  ban people who fail.  (want a real drug free contest?  also require a test 3 and 6 months before the event.)  it may take a few years, but such a contest in the NPC would become popular.

One problem...Lawsuits! I was a member of the AAU Mr America committe when we tried to enforce drug failures.
Long story-short... a law suit found them broke even if the guy was juiced to the gills but found a technical glich in the drug protocoals of the AAU. Result: the end of Mr America contests and AAU bodybuilding as of 1997.
Another example : jay Cutler filed a lawsuit in 2001 when the IFBB tried to DQ him over a failed diurectic test.
Result: Jay kept his money and the IFBB has not done any actual diuretic testing since.
If the show is big enough, some juiced azz clowns will sue and cause havoc.

[timfogarty]

the wnbf and inba don't seem to be having trouble.  nor is the US Olympic Committee, nor the NCAA. 

athletes have to sign a waiver to enter a contest.  the waiver just needs to be very specific, then the org has to follow the rules to the letter

[HowieW]

the wnbf and inba don't seem to be having trouble.  nor is the US Olympic Committee, nor the NCAA. 

athletes have to sign a waiver to enter a contest.  the waiver just needs to be very specific, then the org has to follow the rules to the letter

That is becaue the biggest and best in those organizations frown on drug use and it is a negative with their fans, not so with bodybuilding overall. The wnbf and inbf would have a lot more trouble if they got as big $$ as the IFBB trust me

[timfogarty]

your point was you can't have real drug testing because of lawsuits.  I guess you're therefore saying you can only give lip service to having drug tested events.

then you said that the smaller orgs can have drug testing because their prize money isn't worth suing for.

that implies that drug testing is invalid in the courts, perhaps unconstitutional.  that's clearly not the case.

the USOC and NCAA has drug testing that stands up in court.  they're way bigger than the IFBB.

If the IFBB/NPC wanted drug testest events, they could find a competent lawyer to write out the rules that would stand up in any court.   Follow the written rules to a T and they'd have a truly drug tested event.

But you can't have it both ways.  You can't "give the NPC credit is becuase they made a valid attempt to let naturals compete in one national show ( team U) and others in the regular NON tested national events." and then say you can't annouce or DQ those that fail the drug test because then you'll get sued.   If the threat of a lawsuit is preventing you from doing real drug testing, the just announce you're unable to validate that it is a drug free show.

[HowieW]

your point was you can't have real drug testing because of lawsuits.  I guess you're therefore saying you can only give lip service to having drug tested events.

then you said that the smaller orgs can have drug testing because their prize money isn't worth suing for.

that implies that drug testing is invalid in the courts, perhaps unconstitutional.  that's clearly not the case.

the USOC and NCAA has drug testing that stands up in court.  they're way bigger than the IFBB.

If the IFBB/NPC wanted drug testest events, they could find a competent lawyer to write out the rules that would stand up in any court.   Follow the written rules to a T and they'd have a truly drug tested event.

But you can't have it both ways.  You can't "give the NPC credit is becuase they made a valid attempt to let naturals compete in one national show ( team U) and others in the regular NON tested national events." and then say you can't annouce or DQ those that fail the drug test because then you'll get sued.   If the threat of a lawsuit is preventing you from doing real drug testing, the just announce you're unable to validate that it is a drug free show.

In thoery I agree with you Tim. However my main point was the NPC gave bodybuilders a real viable choice and some azz clowns ruined it for everyone. One would think that if a drug user could freely compete against others like him he would and naturals could do the same. They merely provided a choice for the bodybuilders, the choice issue depends on guys being uopfront as the NPC is about this. By having most shows as NON tested and one big TESTED event they know that typical hardcore guys use while naturals don't.I think Mainion just figured the NON natural guys would comtinue doing the reg shows while he had a seperate event for  naturals. The fact that some may cheat and ruin it for us all is a BIG inidcation of just how wacked this sport is.
Imagine what some would resort to if it was easier to forge legit looking ID's and get into masters contests UNDER the age limit.

[Ex Coelis]

isnt that how Ron Coleman turned pro?

[HowieW]

isnt that how Ron Coleman turned pro?

YUP , great physique

[timfogarty]

I think Mainion just figured the NON natural guys would comtinue doing the reg shows while he had a seperate event for  naturals.

I find that hard to believe.  He certainly doesn't believe that the honor system is enough to guarantee everyone is following the rules.   Then offering a pro card to the winner?  That will make sure there is no incentive to cheat.

Team Universe was always the event that qualified you to go to the IFBB World Amateur Championships.  But the Worlds were not a drug tested event until rather recently.  Tom Platz, Bob Paris, Rich Gaspari, Mohammed Benaziza, Pavol Jablonicky, Achim Albrecht, Ronnie Coleman, Gunter Schlierkamp, Jean Pierre Fux all won their class at the World Amateur Championships.  Don't think any of them claimed they did it drug free.

Then, with Ben's obsession to get bodybuilding into the Olympics, they declared the Worlds would be drug tested.  When they started testing the winners, more failed than not.   In 2002, 14 of 18 (top 3 in 6 classes) failed and were disqualified.

The Worlds are now suppose to be drug free, so therefore, the qualifier has to be declared drug free.  But I see no evidence that the NPC is trying to guarantee that it's drug free.  No one has been DQed for failing a drug test.  No one lost their pro card.