Author Topic: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)  (Read 3437 times)

Butterbean

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Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« on: June 04, 2006, 07:52:22 PM »
THE SILENCE OF GOD
By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
 
Sunday, June 4, 2006
 
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/06/04/the_silence_of_god/
 
    "Where was God in those days?" asked Pope Benedict XVI as he stood in Auschwitz last week. "Why was he silent? How could he permit this endless slaughter, this triumph of evil?"
 
    It is the inevitable question in Auschwitz, that vast factory of death where the Nazis tortured, starved, shot, and gassed to death as many as a million and a half innocent human beings, most of them Jews. "In a place like this, words fail," Benedict said. "In the end, there can be only a dread silence, a silence which itself is a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did *you* remain silent?"
 
    News reports emphasized the pope's question. Every story noted that the man who voiced it was, as he put it, "a son of the German people." No one missed the intense historical significance of a German pope, on a pilgrimage to Poland, beseeching God for answers at the slaughterhouse where just 60 years ago Germans broke every record for shedding Jewish blood.
 
    And yet some commentators accused Benedict of skirting the issue of anti-Semitism. The national director of the Anti-Defamation League said that the pope had "uttered not one word about anti-Semitism; not one explicit acknowledgment of Jewish lives vanquished simply because they were Jews." The National Catholic Register likewise reported that he "did not make any reference to modern anti-Semitism."
 
    In truth, the pope not only acknowledged the reality of Jew-hatred, he explained the pathology that underlies it. Anti-Semites are driven by hostility not just toward Jews, he said, but toward the message of God-based ethics they first brought to the world.
 
    "Deep down, those vicious criminals" -- he was speaking of Hitler and his followers -- "by wiping out this people, wanted to kill the God who called Abraham, who spoke on Sinai and laid down principles to serve as a guide for mankind, principles that are eternally valid. If this people, by its very existence, was a witness to the God who spoke to humanity and took us to himself, then that God finally had to die and power had to belong to man alone -- to those men, who thought that by force they had made themselves masters of the world."
 
    The Nazis' ultimate goal, Benedict argued, was to rip out Christian morality by its Jewish roots, replacing it with "a faith of their own invention: faith in the rule of man, the rule of the powerful." Hitler knew that his will to power could triumph only if he first destroyed Judeo-Christian values. In the Thousand-Year Reich, God and his moral code would be wiped out. Man, unencumbered by conscience, would reign in his place. It is the oldest of temptations, and Auschwitz is what it leads to.
 
    "Where was God in those days?" asked the pope. How could a just and loving Creator have allowed trainload after trainload of human beings to be murdered at Auschwitz? But why ask such a question only in Auschwitz? Where, after all, was God in the Gulag? Where was God when the Khmer Rouge slaughtered 1.7 million Cambodians? Where was God during the Armenian holocaust? Where was God in Rwanda? Where is God in Darfur?
 
    For that matter, where is God when even one innocent victim is being murdered or raped or abused?
 
    The answer, though the pope didn't say so clearly, is that a world in which God always intervened to prevent cruelty and violence would be a world without freedom -- and life without freedom would be meaningless. God endows human beings with the power to choose between good and evil. Some choose to help their neighbor; others choose to hurt him. There were those in Nazi Europe who herded Jews into gas chambers. And there were those who risked their lives to hide Jews from the Gestapo.
 
    The God "who spoke on Sinai" was not addressing himself to angels or robots who could do no wrong even if they wanted to. He was speaking to real people with real choices to make, and real consequences that flow from those choices. Auschwitz wasn't God's fault. He didn't build the place. And only by changing those who did build it from free moral agents into puppets could he have stopped them from committing their horrific crimes.
 
    It was not God who failed during the Holocaust or in the Gulag, or on 9/11, or in Bosnia. It is not God who fails when human beings do barbaric things to other human beings. Auschwitz is not what happens when the God who says "Thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is silent. It is what happens when men and women refuse to listen.
 
(Jeff Jacoby is a columnist for The Boston Globe.)
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 11:51:16 AM »
Quote
The answer, though the pope didn't say so clearly, is that a world in which God always intervened to prevent cruelty and violence would be a world without freedom -- and life without freedom would be meaningless
  the above boils down to that quote. And the debate of whether we have free will is as endless a debate as the God debate...
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Cavalier22

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2006, 06:43:01 PM »
this world is one where the vast majority of life is suffering. only in recent centuries has this not been such an obvious conclusion.  human beings are cruel to each other and have been forever. 

this is the same god who seems like an abusive father more than an omnipotent being
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FREAKgeek

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2006, 08:25:23 PM »
Quote
The answer, though the pope didn't say so clearly, is that a world in which God always intervened to prevent cruelty and violence would be a world without freedom -- and life without freedom would be meaningless

Doesn't this contradict prayer? Prayer is asking for divine intervention. So then what the pope said is essentially saying all prayer is meaningless as well.


What about the elegant, plausible explanation - God does not exisit?

Bast175

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2006, 08:11:28 AM »
Doesn't this contradict prayer?

Yes

Dos Equis

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2006, 09:15:32 AM »
No.

Ex Coelis

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2006, 10:54:57 AM »
You atheists are lazy fucking girls, you know that? You sit there smilling smugly like you've got everything figured out and pout when God won't do everything for you. You whine like little bitches when shit happens and chock it up to God being a figment of our imagination. Bullocks! Get off your asses and do something about it already. God's not going to fucking wipe your ass for you. It's up to us to live right by Him and allow Him to work through us. You focus entirely on the negative and completely ignore all that is good in the world.

Suffering is part of life. If God did everything, it would take all the living out of life. Free will allows you to choose your own path in this world. When you see a homeless man on the street, do you stop and feed him? Or do you just walk past, maybe even laugh at his misfortune? God didnt make that choice, you did.

Dos Equis

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2006, 11:07:16 AM »
You atheists are lazy fucking girls, you know that? You sit there smilling smugly like you've got everything figured out and pout when God won't do everything for you. You whine like little bitches when shit happens and chock it up to God being a figment of our imagination. Bullocks! Get off your asses and do something about it already. God's not going to fucking wipe your ass for you. It's up to us to live right by Him and allow Him to work through us. You focus entirely on the negative and completely ignore all that is good in the world.

Suffering is part of life. If God did everything, it would take all the living out of life. Free will allows you to choose your own path in this world. When you see a homeless man on the street, do you stop and feed him? Or do you just walk past, maybe even laugh at his misfortune? God didnt make that choice, you did.

I agree.  Although I would have worded it a little differently.    :)

Butterbean

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 12:07:37 PM »
I agree.  Although I would have worded it a little differently.    :)

Maybe just a little ;D
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FREAKgeek

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2006, 06:13:33 PM »
You atheists are lazy fucking girls, you know that? You sit there smilling smugly like you've got everything figured out and pout when God won't do everything for you. You whine like little bitches when shit happens and chock it up to God being a figment of our imagination. Bullocks! Get off your asses and do something about it already. God's not going to fucking wipe your ass for you. It's up to us to live right by Him and allow Him to work through us. You focus entirely on the negative and completely ignore all that is good in the world.

Suffering is part of life. If God did everything, it would take all the living out of life. Free will allows you to choose your own path in this world. When you see a homeless man on the street, do you stop and feed him? Or do you just walk past, maybe even laugh at his misfortune? God didnt make that choice, you did.

I'm not an atheist, but I really believe (no pun) that you got it backwards. Atheists tend to not be lazy (at least intellectually) and most certainly secure unlike the typical religious. They have "gotten off their asses" and indeed depend on themselves. It can be a very liberating experience. While there are indeed some that are "negative and completely ignore all that is good in the world", some are the complete opposite. I suggest you read some of Ayan Rand's material. she was a smart broad.

BayGBM

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 09:21:50 AM »
Doesn't this contradict prayer? Prayer is asking for divine intervention. So then what the pope said is essentially saying all prayer is meaningless as well.


I’m not sure I agree with this.  Certainly, perhaps the vast majority of people pray for god to intervene and grant their selfish desires but is that the purpose of prayer?  I don’t think so.

btw, when I was at Georgetown U. there was an undergraduate class called “The Problem of God” where these and similar questions were addressed all semester long.  I always regret not sitting in on that class; alas, I was there as a grad student and hand bigger fish to fry.

muscleforlife

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Re: Where is God in Suffering? (interesting email I received)
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2006, 09:01:11 PM »
You atheists are lazy fucking girls, you know that? You sit there smilling smugly like you've got everything figured out and pout when God won't do everything for you. You whine like little bitches when shit happens and chock it up to God being a figment of our imagination. Bullocks! Get off your asses and do something about it already. God's not going to fucking wipe your ass for you. It's up to us to live right by Him and allow Him to work through us. You focus entirely on the negative and completely ignore all that is good in the world.

Suffering is part of life. If God did everything, it would take all the living out of life. Free will allows you to choose your own path in this world. When you see a homeless man on the street, do you stop and feed him? Or do you just walk past, maybe even laugh at his misfortune? God didnt make that choice, you did.

I only post this to say Atheists don't belive in God.  Therefore  they are not waiting for HIM/HER/IT to do anything for them.

I don't believe in organized religion.  I see Faith practiced everyday by worldy individuals who will curse you out in the blink of an eye, Yet tell you to take your problems to JESUS who has all of the answers.

I can relate to this perspective.
Sandra