Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.

[240_Iz_Nutz]

You're full of shit, Nutz. If you're blind to the truth, then I feel sorry for you.

the picture is a bit much bro...

[hardest core]

Boy oh boy...........some of you are truly brainwashed.

While I don't have the same "beliefs" as Mark.........he is still a great guy, a wonderful father/husband........and a very good human being. So what if he states his beliefs ........you don't have to listen......but many of you are obviously are.

[OakExpress]

Yes.

So, first you have to ask yourself if there is any possibility that you are wrong.  If the possibility exists then there are a few directions you can take....

1) You wait for someone to come along that can convince you otherwise
2) You take the initiative to find the most credible people possible with the opposing view, open your mind, ask your questions, and listen.
3) You do nothing and nobody comes along attempting to persuade you.  You end your life with doubt.

Lots of people are going to read this and think, "any rational person can see that it's not true."  Well, there are lots of highly intelligent and rational people who do believe.  That is unimportant though.  The bottom line is are you sure.... and if not, you ought to do something about it.

[LuciusFox]

So, first you have to ask yourself if there is any possibility that you are wrong.  If the possibility exists then there are a few directions you can take....

1) You wait for someone to come along that can convince you otherwise
2) You take the initiative to find the most credible people possible with the opposing view, open your mind, ask your questions, and listen.
3) You do nothing and nobody comes along attempting to persuade you.  You end your life with doubt.

Lots of people are going to read this and think, "any rational person can see that it's not true."  Well, there are lots of highly intelligent and rational people who do believe.  That is unimportant though.  The bottom line is are you sure.... and if not, you ought to do something about it.

  LOL....maybe he should be a Buddhist

[OakExpress]

Of course I'm not sure and still seeking answers.  It doesn't mean I'm going to believe in unproven fairie tales for comfort.

Good to hear that you are still seeking answers.  Could you explain your second point?  Are you saying that Christianity is a fairy tale?  Or are you saying that you won't succumb to the pressure of discarding intellectual honesty in order to feel better?  I quote from Galileo that I love.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

Intellectual honesty involves ...
a) Seeking the truth
b) Letting the evidence speak
c) Setting aside what we want the answer to be and accepting what we discover
d) Asking tough questions
e) Not making decisions and claiming something to be true or false until we have thoroughly investigated it
f) Not making disparaging remarks about others beliefs when we don't understand how they came about believing what they believe
g) Using the appropriate means of acquiring knowledge.  Not all knowledge can be attained through the scientific method.  Some truth comes by reasoning.  Some truth comes by experience.  Some truth comes my historical evidence, etc.

Best wishes to you in your pursuit of truth.

[Ex Coelis]

Of course I'm not sure and still seeking answers.  It doesn't mean I'm going to believe in unproven fairie tales for comfort.

[OakExpress]

So by this logic I should thoroughly investigate every unsubstantiated claim before dismissing it.  I should "keep an open mind" when it comes to leprechauns before dismissing them.

It doesn't work like that - if you make a positive claim, you show me positive physical evidence to show it exists.

Look - this is simple.  IF the Christian god exists, or if ANYTHING is true for that matter, it shouldn't be difficult to PROVE IT.  If I claimed I owned a car I would be able to show you that car and so on.

Christianity and leprechauns... so that is a worthy comparison in your eyes.  You have testimony of those who lived at the same time as Jesus did.  Thomas, a skeptic would not believe until he had physical evidence and it was presented to him.  However, physical evidence isn't the only way to find truth.  If you think about it, there are many things that you believe in that you have not seen.  You have placed faith in things based on reason, experience etc.

Since you see Christianity at the same level as leprechauns, it should be easy for you to present an airtight case as to why it is false.  So... start a thread and enlighten us all.  Perhaps you will find yourself in the same quandry as Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell.  They both set out to show it was false, and in the end, these highly educated men who actually INVESTIGATED the evidence (rather than making disrespectful uninformed assertions) became believers.  C.S. Lewis is another skeptic with outstanding credentials and intellect who became a believer.  Some of the top scientists in the world (biochemists, physicists, and astronomers) have become believers.  So, let's not compare Christianity and leprechauns.

God sent his son 2000 years ago to enlighten us.  He taught great things.  He performed miraculous signs witnessed by many.  He died on a cross and was resurrected.  His followers who fled before his death (due to fear) completely changed their paths and were willing to die for what they believed in.  The Bible tells us this.  Historical documents other than the Bible support its teaching.  His death was a payment for the wrongs of humanity.  Our only way to reconcile with God is to accept the one who paid it, and accept his gift of grace.

As I said, best wishes on your pursuit of truth.  Find an authority on the issue, and settle the matter.  If your not ready to do that, read A Case For Christ, A Case For Faith, Mere Christianity, and Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

[sarcasm]

This is simple:

Show me the physical evidence.

"Search and you will find it" means nothing to me.

EVERY religion says the same thing.  If you indoctrinate yourself for long enough you will believe anything.  If you indoctrinate your children since a young age they will believe anything.  If I wanted to teach my children that black people are no better than animals they would grow up believing it.

The same thing is said about every religion.  Some Mormons said the same thing to me recently.  Muslims, Jehovah's witnesses, Christians - all of you think you are right.  But that's the gag!  God is like a highlander - there can only be one!  So only one of you is right and EVERY other one of you is wrong.  So why should I believe you over somebody of another faith?  Your evidence is the exact same "You'll just feel it in your heart" spiel they give me.

If you have been religious since a young age I would be led to believe you were indoctrinated yourself.  In which case - I don't want to hear debate from you.

Just show me the physical proof.

Here is a claim: I have brown hair.

I can prove it.

Here is another claim: I and 5'9.

I can prove it.

I have a car.

I can prove it.

I own a house.

I can prove it.

I am 24.

I can prove it.

ETC, ETC, ETC.

IF SOMETHING IS TRUE, IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT DIFFICULT TO SHOW IT DIRECTLY.

It is that simple.

Religion is the single worst thing to EVER happen to humanity.  I don't like religion because I don't like killing and murder and bloodshed.  I want to live in a world where we can get along and love one another and share and so on.

Seems ironic doesn't it?  But if you look at the logical physical reality we live in, you will see I'm right.  The difference between me and you is that I can prove what I say.  You can't.

post of the century.

[OneMoreRep]

You are absolutely right. Science has only cracked the surface.
However, the science that has already been established can readily dismantle the outstanding majority of the Bible.  

Yes it does. Jesus attributed illness to demons.
He commanded a demon to leave the boy with epilepsy.
Epilepsy is a neurological disorder, so it CAN be measured, explained, rationalized by science.
Even IF Jesus healed the epileptic, which he DIDN'T, he was wrong as to the cause.

Jesus was resurrected.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
His body was missing from the tomb. Either it was stolen (but the Bible never even hints at this as a possibility, in fact the suggestion would have been considered heresy), the myth was invented (likely, Jesus' body is in some obscure Palestinian grave as we speak), or his body disappeared, which is a scientific impossibility.

So as you see, Religion DOES attempt to provide explanations for scientific phenomenon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no such thing as sin or evil. Matter is not created or destroyed, merely changes form.
The relative arrangement of atomic particles is irrelevant - it is a subjective value judgment.
If I shoot you, eat you, or vaporize you (of course I wouldn't! just an analogy) means nothing, no matter is destroyed, nothing is lost other than the electrical association between various particles, but this energy is compensated for by reducing the amount stolen from the adjacent environment.

Life is nothing more than an indifferent series of chemical reactions and atomic interaction.

Who did you learn under? 

[OakExpress]

Ah... 24 years old.  A man of great wisdom.  A man of experience.  A man who has sought out great wisdom in his many years.  From his lofty incline bench, he stares down his nose at those who he deems to be fools. 

Your mind has been made up.  You haven't told me anything of your evaluation of Christianity.  All you have done is told me you can prove the obvious.  Congratulations.  Unfortunately real life is much trickier than I can prove I'm 5'9" (exactly 5' 9" not a fraction of a micrometer more or less).

I've said all I have to say.  I'm sure you are glad to hear that.  I have been where you are.  I was a skeptic.  I evaluated the evidence and came to the conclusion that Jesus was who he said he was.

As I've said, I wish you the best on your search for truth. 

[sarcasm]

Ah... 24 years old.  A man of great wisdom.  A man of experience.  A man who has sought out great wisdom in his many years.  From his lofty incline bench, he stares down his nose at those who he deems to be fools. 

Your mind has been made up.  You haven't told me anything of your evaluation of Christianity.  All you have done is told me you can prove the obvious.  Congratulations.  Unfortunately real life is much trickier than I can prove I'm 5'9" (exactly 5' 9" not a fraction of a micrometer more or less).

I've said all I have to say.  I'm sure you are glad to hear that.  I have been where you are.  I was a skeptic.  I evaluated the evidence and came to the conclusion that Jesus was who he said he was.

As I've said, I wish you the best on your search for truth. 

must be nice to be so sure do you still believe in the tooth fairy?

[gordiano]

must be nice to be so sure do you still believe in the tooth fairy?

I believe in the Cock Fairy........he posts here under the name of Alexxx..........

[sarcasm]

I believe in the Cock Fairy........he posts here under the name of Alexxx..........

hahahaha, instead of leaving five dollars he sucks ball sacks dry and steals semen in the dead of the night.

[nycbull]

How about this?

1) A key passage in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus doesn't make sense in Aramaic.
However, it makes perfect sense in GREEK, so scholars acknowledge that Jesus did not really have this conversation, rather it was some the product of the imagination of some Greek scribe.

2) Several books in the Bible (particularly the Pauline epistles) are not really written by the alleged author. Its called pseudepigrapha, writing under a famous author's name, in this case the apostle Paul. How do I trust the content of the Bible if the authors are perfectly comfortable assuming another's identity??

3) The Bible is two-faced ... even the New Testament.
It supports racism, slavery, misogyny ... unacceptable in my eyes under any circumstance.
Read 2 Timothy if you don't believe me. Slaves were the physical property of their masters, so the master had every right to abuse them sexually. Even Abraham had sex slaves.

4) Matthew and Luke have entirely different, completely irreconcilable birth narratives.

... couple that with the fact that Homo sapiens is really a primate (since our genetic makeup is 99% synonymous to the others), abiogenesis has been documented, the Earth is billions of years old, not 6000 ... and lastly, the useless slaughter of innocent animals to appease an invincible God (speciesism).

No thank you. Even IF God existed, which he doesn't, I would not accept his salvation.
"Man created in God's image" ... what a carnal notion 

So right about the innocent slaughter of animals in the bible. It is amazing how many religious people go mum when it comes to animal rights. If Jesus saw the mass slaughter of animals on factory farms, fur farms and labortories he would be sickened. He even saved a lamb from slaughter. But do these religious nuts ever do anything to help animals, nope, never. The Vatican has been asked time and time again if they think slaughtering an animal for a fur coat is acceptable, they continue to refuse to answer. I mean why not just answer the question. If its yes so be it, if not cool. But at least answer the question. The Vatican has ignored animal rights for years and it is becoming a joke. The ultimate in compassion is a person who goes out of his way to prevent harm to an animal with no selfish interest at all, not even a thank you. Thats real compassion.

[Ex Coelis]

So right about the innocent slaughter of animals in the bible. It is amazing how many religious people go mum when it comes to animal rights. If Jesus saw the mass slaughter of animals on factory farms, fur farms and labortories he would be sickened. He even saved a lamb from slaughter. But do these religious nuts ever do anything to help animals, nope, never. The Vatican has been asked time and time again if they think slaughtering an animal for a fur coat is acceptable, they continue to refuse to answer. I mean why not just answer the question. If its yes so be it, if not cool. But at least answer the question. The Vatican has ignored animal rights for years and it is becoming a joke. The ultimate in compassion is a person who goes out of his way to prevent harm to an animal with no selfish interest at all, not even a thank you. Thats real compassion.

Animals don't have souls. Why would they be given moral consideration?

God created them to feed and clothe us. As long as we don't abuse them, it's all good.

Why are people such whiny bitches about this anyway?

[nycbull]

Animals don't have souls. Why would they be given moral consideration?

God created them to feed and clothe us. As long as we don't abuse them, it's all good.

Why are people such whiny bitches about this anyway?

Your human centrist philosophy is the reason why our environment is in such disrepair. Ecology/Science has proved we are not the center of creation. And by the way the industries that use animals to feed and cloth us are the very ones that outright abuse animals. It's all about money. Its not farmers in overalls anymore dude. Its serious exploitation and abuse for money. There is no attempt at all to "Shepard" these poor souls. Its just neglect, abuse and making money.

By saying animals don't have souls aren't you really giving permission to abuse them. If they are so unimportant to God then why not abuse them? You see when you select only one group to be the chosen one you devalue the unchosen ones. Thats how violent racism and homophobia starts.

I realize animals have to be used for food and other needs. I am just saying that the church has no position on the exploitation and mistreatment and misuse and abuse of animals(and we are talking billions of animals) and that my friend is hypocritical. They have been silent on the undeniable animal abuse for profit in the fur, zoo, hunting, entertainment, science and food industry. Why not have a position and state it openly.

[hardest core]

There are some crazy mo-fo's out there. Man oh man!

[Ex Coelis]

Your human centrist philosophy is the reason why our environment is in such disrepair. Ecology/Science has proved we are not the center of creation. And by the way the industries that use animals to feed and cloth us are the very ones that outright abuse animals. It's all about money. Its not farmers in overalls anymore dude. Its serious exploitation and abuse for money. There is no attempt at all to "Shepard" these poor souls. Its just neglect, abuse and making money.

By saying animals don't have souls aren't you really giving permission to abuse them. If they are so unimportant to God then why not abuse them? You see when you select only one group to be the chosen one you devalue the unchosen ones. Thats how violent racism and homophobia starts.

I realize animals have to be used for food and other needs. I am just saying that the church has no position on the exploitation and mistreatment and misuse and abuse of animals(and we are talking billions of animals) and that my friend is hypocritical. They have been silent on the undeniable animal abuse for profit in the fur, zoo, hunting, entertainment, science and food industry. Why not have a position and state it openly.

bitch bitch bitch - whine whine whine

if you've got such a boner for animals I'm sure there are a couple of links in the Sex forum you'd find interesting . . .


seriously though, abusing animals is wrong. But you seem to think that slaughtering them and making a living off of selling meat is somehow one of history's greatest injustices. Get a clue! Your idea of abuse is distorted.

Your perception on animals is also disturbing. It's this train of thought that leads PETA to compare KFC to the Holocaust. WTF???