What is your opinion?

[Migs]

For those of you familiar with my thoughts and writings on this subject you know that I am very cautious in regard to the manner in which Christians should express their opposition the homosexual agenda. I have always been very careful to distinguish between the "homosexual agenda," or the political movement, and the person, made in the image of God, who is trapped in the sin of homosexuality. I never want to be perceived as a "grace-less" Christian who opposes hurting people that desperately need the love of Christ. However, we are increasingly witnessing a subtle but dangerous transition from what was once supposedly an appeal for "equal and fair" treatment to what can now only be described as the tyrannical demand of submission to the homosexual agenda.

just my guess, jag

[Colossus_500]

Homosexuality is not genetic.  Bisexualism is not genetic.  Cross-dressing is not genetic.

A few men and women in black robes forced gay marriage on Massachusetts.  It was not a public vote.  I'm pretty sure every single traditional marriage amendment/law has passed and every single in which it has come to a vote, including the very liberal Hawaii.  Pretty clear that the public doesn't want this.     

well said, bro! 

[Colossus_500]

One of the problems would be legitimizing abnormal behavior and creating a new class of protected behavior.
 
What happens when you do that?  Among other things, you get legislation that redefines gender to be whatever a person thinks it is:

"Gender identity or expression‚ includes a person's actual or perceived gender, as well as a person's gender identity, gender-related self-image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression, regardless of whether that gender identity, gender-related self-image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression is different from that traditionally associated with the person's sex at birth."

How confusing is that?  That's the law in Hawaii.  You cannot discriminate against someone who believes he is a man, but dresses like a woman.  Sounds like a problem to me.  

EXCELLENT POINT!!!

[Colossus_500]

I'm curious as to why a thread debating Homosexual rights is on the religion board?

Jag, why don't you start a thread on the General board?  I posted this question here because the nature of the article is from a religious perspective.

[Colossus_500]

It's a lot like the civil rights movement in the 60's.  To Bigots the civil rights agenda seemed excessive also.

OzmO, I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion the homosexuality debate is a civil rights issue.  First off, there's not scientific evidence whatsover that you are born gay.  I, however, had no choice when I was born as a black person.  VERY DIFFERENT! 

If the civil rights label should be aligned with homosexuality, then where were was the Ford Corporation when blacks were being burned and hung?  Why didn't they speak out like they do for the homosexual agenda now, like many other big corporations across America. 

Homosexuality is NOT a civil rights issue.  Not even close.

[OzmO]

OzmO, I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion the homosexuality debate is a civil rights issue.  First off, there's not scientific evidence whatsover that you are born gay.  I, however, had no choice when I was born as a black person.  VERY DIFFERENT! 

If the civil rights label should be aligned with homosexuality, then where were was the Ford Corporation when blacks were being burned and hung?  Why didn't they speak out like they do for the homosexual agenda now, like many other big corporations across America. 

Homosexuality is NOT a civil rights issue.  Not even close.

I'm not saying it is, i'm only saying when you see stuff about homosexuals in the media the way you do these days it is similar to seeing things about civil rights in the media in the 60's and 70's, and the reaction from the racist is similar to that of people who do not support homosexuality.

Raicist complained that we all would be acting like black people and it was an attack on white culture...  sounds similar to homosexual's attack on marriage life style. 

That's my comparison.  Not a civil rights thing based on race.

[Colossus_500]

I'm not saying it is, i'm only saying when you see stuff about homosexuals in the media the way you do these days it is similar to seeing things about civil rights in the media in the 60's and 70's, and the reaction from the racist is similar to that of people who do not support homosexuality.

Raicist complained that we all would be acting like black people and it was an attack on white culture...  sounds similar to homosexual's attack on marriage life style. 

That's my comparison.  Not a civil rights thing based on race.

I agree only in the sense that this is how the media is portraying the issue.  They are the ones driving this agenda in my opinion.  Racist people claimed that whites were superior to blacks.  People who disagree with the lifestyle of homosexuality are not claiming that they are superior to gays.  Their argument is that this is a destructive behavior or identity crisis caused by environment. 

What bothers me most about how this agenda is being pushed is that if you don't agree with it, then, as Beach Bum has already stated, you are labeled as a hate mongerer or bigot.  It's the same thing as some conservatives might say that God doesn't love you if you are a Democrat.  We know this to be a purely asinine thought. 

[OzmO]

I agree only in the sense that this is how the media is portraying the issue.  They are the ones driving this agenda in my opinion.  Racist people claimed that whites were superior to blacks.  People who disagree with the lifestyle of homosexuality are not claiming that they are superior to gays.  Their argument is that this is a destructive behavior or identity crisis caused by environment. 

What bothers me most about how this agenda is being pushed is that if you don't agree with it, then, as Beach Bum has already stated, you are labeled as a hate mongerer or bigot.  It's the same thing as some conservatives might say that God doesn't love you if you are a Democrat.  We know this to be a purely asinine thought. 

Let's explore this a bit more...

I'm not for homosexuals getting special treatment. 

What's is the homosexual agenda exactly? 

[Colossus_500]

the agenda is simply to be recognized as legitimate and to no longer be seen as taboo as has in the past.

[OzmO]

the agenda is simply to be recognized as legitimate and to no longer be seen as taboo as has in the past.

Being recognized as legitamate would mean what?

[OzmO]

Is this what we are trying to prevent?   



and keep it like this?   

[Colossus_500]

lol. 

simply put, bro.  it's a behavior we should not be endorsing for all sorts of moral reasons.  on the issue of gay marriage alone, if we can't define marriage, then the loner guy who can't even pay a girl to marry him and isn't gay, but loves his dog Fiona (or Fido, if you please) has every legitimate reason to argue that he should be able to marry his long-time "companion".

[OzmO]

lol. 

simply put, bro.  it's a behavior we should not be endorsing for all sorts of moral reasons.  on the issue of gay marriage alone, if we can't define marriage, then the loner guy who can't even pay a girl to marry him and isn't gay, but loves his dog Fiona (or Fido, if you please) has every legitimate reason to argue that he should be able to marry his long-time "companion".

Ok so recognizing it as legitimate would mean we are endorsing it?

I don't endorse the behavior.  But i wouldn't do anything to prevent someone from doing what they want in the privacy of their own home. And if a TV show gets advertising revenue so what?  If it didn't sell then it wouldn't ever be on TV.  Money never recognizes morality.

I'm sorry i just don't understand it here.  Please explain.

What do these people with their homosexual agenda want?

Do they want everyone to be gay? What is it?

[Colossus_500]

Ok so recognizing it as legitimate would mean we are endorsing it?

I don't endorse the behavior.  But i wouldn't do anything to prevent someone from doing what they want in the privacy of their own home. And if a TV show gets advertising revenue so what?  If it didn't sell then it wouldn't ever be on TV.  Money never recognizes morality.

I'm sorry i just don't understand it here.  Please explain.

What do these people with their homosexual agenda want?

Do they want everyone to be gay? What is it?

If you want to get right down to it, I believe the agenda to be an attempt at the distruction of the moral fiber of this country.  The rest of the world is already grey and not longer black and white when it comes to moral issues.  The United States is beginning to look more and more like the rest of the world. 

[muscleforlife]

lol. 

simply put, bro.  it's a behavior we should not be endorsing for all sorts of moral reasons.  on the issue of gay marriage alone, if we can't define marriage, then the loner guy who can't even pay a girl to marry him and isn't gay, but loves his dog Fiona (or Fido, if you please) has every legitimate reason to argue that he should be able to marry his long-time "companion".

Who's list of morals should the people as a whole subscribe to?
Comparing homosexuality to beastality is wrong.  Two human beings...consenting adults.  Animals can't give consent.
Sandra

[OzmO]

If you want to get right down to it, I believe the agenda to be an attempt at the distruction of the moral fiber of this country.  The rest of the world is already grey and not longer black and white when it comes to moral issues.  The United States is beginning to look more and more like the rest of the world. 

Don't you think the:

-  Thousands of random acts of violence displayed on TV every day combined with the 7.2 hours a day the average family watches TV does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  High divorce rate helped by the graphic sex displayed on TV and in the movies does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Urge to escape and detatch reality via the use of drugs does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Rise of strip clubs all over the U.S. does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Advertising that pushes the accumilation of material wealth does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Recording industry has made it fashionalble to carry guns and become a gangster does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

Honestly, Colossus, those things i talked about have had a higher impact of destroying our moral fiber then the homosexual agenda looking for fair and equal treatment.

When you say destruction fo the moral fiber it's like saying the destruction of one's culture.  Very similar to what racists were saying about the emergence of Black culture in the media.   My point about that is, that it won't do anything to our moral fiber just as black culture didn't so anything to so called white culture.  Just becuase poeple that are gay are not persecuted and enjoy equal and fair treatment will not cuase the average young hetersexual to become gay.  He's either going to really dig women or really dig men.  And some gay guy on TV is not make a person who loves tits want to give a guy a blow job.  All it's going to do is diminish hate and fear.

[muscleforlife]

If you want to get right down to it, I believe the agenda to be an attempt at the distruction of the moral fiber of this country.  The rest of the world is already grey and not longer black and white when it comes to moral issues.  The United States is beginning to look more and more like the rest of the world. 

Moral Fiber?  Please explain this in the sense of how the country as a whole follow one particular set of morals.
Seeing that the most of the world has been in existence thousands of years before the USA, it would seem that we are catching up.
Sandra

[muscleforlife]

Don't you think the:

-  Thousands of random acts of violence displayed on TV every day combined with the 7.2 hours a day the average family watches TV does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  High divorce rate helped by the graphic sex displayed on TV and in the movies does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Urge to escape and detatch reality via the use of drugs does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Rise of strip clubs all over the U.S. does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Advertising that pushes the accumilation of material wealth does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Recording industry has made it fashionalble to carry guns and become a gangster does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

Honestly, Colossus, those things i talked about have had a higher impact of destroying our moral fiber then the homosexual agenda looking for fair and equal treatment.

When you say destruction fo the moral fiber it's like saying the destruction of one's culture.  Very similar to what racists were saying about the emergence of Black culture in the media.   My point about that is, that it won't do anything to our moral fiber just as black culture didn't so anything to so called white culture.  Just becuase poeple that are gay are not persecuted and enjoy equal and fair treatment will not cuase the average young hetersexual to become gay.  He's either going to really dig women or really dig men.  And some gay guy on TV is not make a person who loves tits want to give a guy a blow job.  All it's going to do is diminish hate.

I totally agree with OzmO.

Fighting for basic human rights for a particular group is a civil rights issue.  It doesn't mean special treatment for that segement of people.
And yes, I am a black person.
Sandra

[Dos Equis]

Homosexuals, bisexuals, and transvestites already have basic human rights.  They can vote, own land, live in any state they chose, start a business, go to school, file lawsuits, receive due process in court, etc., etc.  They can't be targeted for violence based solely on their sexual practices.       

What they shouldn't be allowed to do is force the state to recognize an abnormal relationship by sanctioning a marriage between two men, like about 18 states have said loud and clear.  If two men want to live together and have sex with each other, that is their business.  When they ask the state to use my tax dollars to endorse their conduct, then it becomes my business. 

I agree with everything Colossus has said, including that this is a moral issue.  But we don't have to use morality to prevent the granting of special rights to people based on their sexual practices.  When you get past the "equal rights," "human rights," "civil rights" smokescreen, we're really talking about legitimizing abnormal behavior.  So, I see a definite correlation between things like bestiality, polygamy, and even incest.  Ever heard of the Man-Boy Love Association (or something like that)?     

From a religious standpoint, you have to be very concerned about this movement if you're a Christian.  The Bible condemns homosexual conduct (not the person).  It is unquestionably unacceptable behavior from a purely religious standpoint.     

That said, my office hired a gay summer intern, partly with my approval, and I'm working with him.  Gave him an assignment yesterday in fact.  I have no problem working with him, communicating with him, joking around, etc., like we did yesterday and will do for the rest of the summer.  I'm not afraid of him at all and don't hate or dislike him.  He's actually a very nice kid. 

[Colossus_500]

Don't you think the:

-  Thousands of random acts of violence displayed on TV every day combined with the 7.2 hours a day the average family watches TV does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  High divorce rate helped by the graphic sex displayed on TV and in the movies does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Urge to escape and detatch reality via the use of drugs does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Rise of strip clubs all over the U.S. does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Advertising that pushes the accumilation of material wealth does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

-  Recording industry has made it fashionalble to carry guns and become a gangster does more to destroy the moral fiber of this country?

Honestly, Colossus, those things i talked about have had a higher impact of destroying our moral fiber then the homosexual agenda looking for fair and equal treatment.

When you say destruction fo the moral fiber it's like saying the destruction of one's culture.  Very similar to what racists were saying about the emergence of Black culture in the media.   My point about that is, that it won't do anything to our moral fiber just as black culture didn't so anything to so called white culture.  Just becuase poeple that are gay are not persecuted and enjoy equal and fair treatment will not cuase the average young hetersexual to become gay.  He's either going to really dig women or really dig men.  And some gay guy on TV is not make a person who loves tits want to give a guy a blow job.  All it's going to do is diminish hate and fear.

Ozmo, all of the things you mention are a result of us taking a "relaxed" approach to what is right and what is wrong.  you know for a fact that none of these things were an issue not even some 40 years ago. And you keep bring up the arguments of the civil rights issues pertaining to blacks back in the day.  You need to explain to me how the issue of homosexuality is the same, because clearly I'm not understand how you can link the two.  I understand that the arguments that were made about blacks with respect to civil rights are like those that some would make about homosexuals.  But I think a more legitimate connection with respect to the two would be back when there was a huge debate about gays being in the military.  That's where I tend to agree with what you are arguing.  But I fail to see where you can legitimize the notion that we will see that embracing homosexuality like most have come to embrace black people (or other minorities of other cultures, i have to include women's rights as well) as a similarity.  It's nowhere near the same argument in my opinion.  So, you have to articulate this a little more clearly for me, since I'm not understanding.  Sorry for not getting where you coming from.  

I guess what I'm trying to say, OzmO, is being black (or a minority) is not a sin, whereas being a homosexual is.  Being that it is a sin, are you going to argue that a murderer or thief needs to have the same civil rights as that of a homosexual then too?  Just as we shouldn't embrace all that you mention in your list of maladies in the post above, I'm saying we shouldn't embrace homosexuality as such.  And I believe that all the things you mention have come to actualization or fruition because we have taken the very mentality that you are arguing about homosexuality.

[Colossus_500]

Homosexuals, bisexuals, and transvestites already have basic human rights.  They can vote, own land, live in any state they chose, start a business, go to school, file lawsuits, receive due process in court, etc., etc.  They can't be targeted for violence based solely on their sexual practices.       

What they shouldn't be allowed to do is force the state to recognize an abnormal relationship by sanctioning a marriage between two men, like about 18 states have said loud and clear.  If two men want to live together and have sex with each other, that is their business.  When they ask the state to use my tax dollars to endorse their conduct, then it becomes my business. 

I agree with everything Colossus has said, including that this is a moral issue.  But we don't have to use morality to prevent the granting of special rights to people based on their sexual practices.  When you get past the "equal rights," "human rights," "civil rights" smokescreen, we're really talking about legitimizing abnormal behavior.  So, I see a definite correlation between things like bestiality, polygamy, and even incest.  Ever heard of the Man-Boy Love Association (or something like that)?     

From a religious standpoint, you have to be very concerned about this movement if you're a Christian.  The Bible condemns homosexual conduct (not the person).  It is unquestionably unacceptable behavior from a purely religious standpoint.     

That said, my office hired a gay summer intern, partly with my approval, and I'm working with him.  Gave him an assignment yesterday in fact.  I have no problem working with him, communicating with him, joking around, etc., like we did yesterday and will do for the rest of the summer.  I'm not afraid of him at all and don't hate or dislike him.  He's actually a very nice kid. 

Beach, I think you do a MUCH BETTER job of articulating the argument that I'm trying to make.   Thanks for clarifying. 

[Dos Equis]

Beach, I think you do a MUCH BETTER job of articulating the argument that I'm trying to make.   Thanks for clarifying. 

Thanks Colossus, but you've done great.  I'm just being an echo.   

[OzmO]

Ok, i think the 3 of us are much more in agreement about this issue than we are in disagreement.

Things we agree on:

-  Homosexuals should have the same basic human rights afforded to others
-  Homosexuals should not be persecuted or discriminated
-  Homosexuals shouldn't get a tax break through marraige (i think we agree on this in this way)
-  Homosexuals shouldn't get special rights for being homosexuals
-  According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin

Things we don't agree on:

-  Homosexuality is a sin
-  Accepting homosexuality will help to destroy the moral fiber of America


I got both my Bosses here in this room while i'm typing this and i just told them both they are ass holes and to go pound salt.  But they keep bugging me to do work...  the nerve of these jerks  ....so i need to go for now,  but i think i covered most of it?  please ad or subtract. 

[OzmO]

Also,  i can totally see where you both are coming from if you believe what the bible says about homosexuality and i guess becuase of that it explains why you feel the way you do about the homosexual agenda.

The lego guys were pretty funny though huh?   

[24KT]

Jag, why don't you start a thread on the General board?  I posted this question here because the nature of the article is from a religious perspective.

I have no desire to start a thread on the topic. For me it's pretty clear cut.
People are people, and deserve the same rights, priviledges and protections afforded to all citizens,
regardless of their lifestyle, (which can reasonably be argued falls under creed, and/or the pursuit of happiness.)

I just wanted to know why it was in Religion. Your explaination is a reasonable one and answered my question.