Vince Taylor out of the PDI & into the Olympia

[timfogarty]

I think you misread that tim.
he says they both wrote glowing articles about how good they themselves were not how great each other was...

oh.  never mind.

[Vince B]

jwb got it right about the editorials Joe and Bob used to write or had written for them. Joe was so egotistical that he would be booed when introduced at contests. Bill Reynolds told me Joe was bothered by that booing and wondered why they booed him. I met both guys and Bob almost kicked me out of the York gym back in 1965 because I told him I wasn't impressed by his appearance. He took off his shirt and after many seconds did a vacuum pose. The next day John Terpak told me to keep my mouth shut or I wouldn't be welcome in that gym. Jules Bacon told me later not to take what was said too seriously. I guess they all knew what Bob was like.  I met Joe once after the 1980 Olympia and he seemed okay to me. He said people accused him of fixing his contests but everyone who won was his champion. I think he was fair dinkum. Ben was responsible for the IFBB and Joe more with publishing his magazines. I am sure they are both intelligent men and would be very interesting to meet and talk to.

I like the way Chick speaks his mind. However, he does a lot of posturing and attempts to control the behaviour of others by quoting the company line of the IFBB. He loves whatever power he has or believes he has. Given how meek bodybuilders are I doubt anyone should feel elated at being the rep for the pros. If Chick is candid he should recognize he is not that highly respected for his position. Sure it is a thankless job but he seems more concerned with impressing the IFBB executives than representing each and every professional bodybuilder. His comments to Lee Priest amount to a complete abandonment of Lee. What else can anyone make of Chick's comments to Lee?

If Chick truly believes professional bodybuilders do not earn enough to make a decent living then he should be doing all that he can to facilitate the capacity and ability to earn more money and that includes competing for monies. Bodybuilding at the professional level is like boxing. The competitors are not allowed to compete in unsanctioned contests. There is an exception and that is when they have a contest between two champions from different groups. Why does Chick support the IFBB on this issue when it is clear the majority of readers here do not? If you are going to be a political person then at least be sensitive to what most approve and disapprove of.

The bottom line is simple to see. Bodybuilders are struggling to make a living from the sport and the IFBB cannot provide for many of them in any way.

I will say what I hinted at in a previous post. The IFBB has always been afraid that the best bodybuilders will go elsewhere if they were not happy. In 1981 5 of the top guys boycotted that Olympia and a second rate Franco won. There was nowhere else to go to compete and by then the Mr Olympia was THE contest to win. Somehow even the Mr Universe was not that important. This really is ironic. Who knows who is out there in this absolutely huge universe?  Bodybuilders might go elsewhere to try to make some money but they all dream of winning the Olympia so the IFBB need have no fear that they will lose what they have. This same fear has prevented the IFBB from doing serious drug testing. How difficult would it be for them to do random tests several times each year of the guys who qualify to compete? Joe and Ben made millions out of the sport. They could easily donate money to a fund that will pay for this testing. Heck, they could buy a whole lab! Until we have this strict testing bodybuilding is dead. End of story. Now how smart does anyone have to be to figure this out? Huh, anyone? I keep shaking my head. The public will be interested when full and honest testing is done. That includes testing for synthol and inserts. That goes for the women, too. It is possible to get the public to support pure bodybuilding. When that happens the money will come in and it will be a totally different sport and we won't have pathetic threads like this one!

[Chick]

jwb got it right about the editorials Joe and Bob used to write or had written for them. Joe was so egotistical that he would be booed when introduced at contests. Bill Reynolds told me Joe was bothered by that booing and wondered why they booed him. I met both guys and Bob almost kicked me out of the York gym back in 1965 because I told him I wasn't impressed by his appearance. He took off his shirt and after many seconds did a vacuum pose. The next day John Terpak told me to keep my mouth shut or I wouldn't be welcome in that gym. Jules Bacon told me later not to take what was said too seriously. I guess they all knew what Bob was like.  I met Joe once after the 1980 Olympia and he seemed okay to me. He said people accused him of fixing his contests but everyone who won was his champion. I think he was fair dinkum. Ben was responsible for the IFBB and Joe more with publishing his magazines. I am sure they are both intelligent men and would be very interesting to meet and talk to.

I like the way Chick speaks his mind. However, he does a lot of posturing and attempts to control the behaviour of others by quoting the company line of the IFBB. He loves whatever power he has or believes he has. Given how meek bodybuilders are I doubt anyone should feel elated at being the rep for the pros. If Chick is candid he should recognize he is not that highly respected for his position. Sure it is a thankless job but he seems more concerned with impressing the IFBB executives than representing each and every professional bodybuilder. His comments to Lee Priest amount to a complete abandonment of Lee. What else can anyone make of Chick's comments to Lee?

If Chick truly believes professional bodybuilders do not earn enough to make a decent living then he should be doing all that he can to facilitate the capacity and ability to earn more money and that includes competing for monies. Bodybuilding at the professional level is like boxing. The competitors are not allowed to compete in unsanctioned contests. There is an exception and that is when they have a contest between two champions from different groups. Why does Chick support the IFBB on this issue when it is clear the majority of readers here do not? If you are going to be a political person then at least be sensitive to what most approve and disapprove of.

The bottom line is simple to see. Bodybuilders are struggling to make a living from the sport and the IFBB cannot provide for many of them in any way.

I will say what I hinted at in a previous post. The IFBB has always been afraid that the best bodybuilders will go elsewhere if they were not happy. In 1981 5 of the top guys boycotted that Olympia and a second rate Franco won. There was nowhere else to go to compete and by then the Mr Olympia was THE contest to win. Somehow even the Mr Universe was not that important. This really is ironic. Who knows who is out there in this absolutely huge universe?  Bodybuilders might go elsewhere to try to make some money but they all dream of winning the Olympia so the IFBB need have no fear that they will lose what they have. This same fear has prevented the IFBB from doing serious drug testing. How difficult would it be for them to do random tests several times each year of the guys who qualify to compete? Joe and Ben made millions out of the sport. They could easily donate money to a fund that will pay for this testing. Heck, they could buy a whole lab! Until we have this strict testing bodybuilding is dead. End of story. Now how smart does anyone have to be to figure this out? Huh, anyone? I keep shaking my head. The public will be interested when full and honest testing is done. That includes testing for synthol and inserts. That goes for the women, too. It is possible to get the public to support pure bodybuilding. When that happens the money will come in and it will be a totally different sport and we won't have pathetic threads like this one!

You seem to profess you know how I think and what others think about me...funny, I don't remember seeing you in any of the meetings, or at any of the shows...just what exactly do you know?

Why don't you list all I've done for the athlete's since you seem to know...?

The public doesn't give a rats ass about testing...no more than they care about baseball players being tested...you see any drop in attendance?

There is more money in bodybuilding today than at any other time in history. More guys are making a living bodybuilding, and have endorsement contracts than at any other time in history...There were more people in atendance at the Olympia this past year, than at any other time in history.

This aint 1974 anymore, Mr. Canada...times have changed.

Quit talking about what *I* say, do, or think...you don't know me.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

jwb got it right about the editorials Joe and Bob used to write or had written for them. Joe was so egotistical that he would be booed when introduced at contests. Bill Reynolds told me Joe was bothered by that booing and wondered why they booed him. I met both guys and Bob almost kicked me out of the York gym back in 1965 because I told him I wasn't impressed by his appearance. He took off his shirt and after many seconds did a vacuum pose. The next day John Terpak told me to keep my mouth shut or I wouldn't be welcome in that gym. Jules Bacon told me later not to take what was said too seriously. I guess they all knew what Bob was like.  I met Joe once after the 1980 Olympia and he seemed okay to me. He said people accused him of fixing his contests but everyone who won was his champion. I think he was fair dinkum. Ben was responsible for the IFBB and Joe more with publishing his magazines. I am sure they are both intelligent men and would be very interesting to meet and talk to.

I like the way Chick speaks his mind. However, he does a lot of posturing and attempts to control the behaviour of others by quoting the company line of the IFBB. He loves whatever power he has or believes he has. Given how meek bodybuilders are I doubt anyone should feel elated at being the rep for the pros. If Chick is candid he should recognize he is not that highly respected for his position. Sure it is a thankless job but he seems more concerned with impressing the IFBB executives than representing each and every professional bodybuilder. His comments to Lee Priest amount to a complete abandonment of Lee. What else can anyone make of Chick's comments to Lee?

If Chick truly believes professional bodybuilders do not earn enough to make a decent living then he should be doing all that he can to facilitate the capacity and ability to earn more money and that includes competing for monies. Bodybuilding at the professional level is like boxing. The competitors are not allowed to compete in unsanctioned contests. There is an exception and that is when they have a contest between two champions from different groups. Why does Chick support the IFBB on this issue when it is clear the majority of readers here do not? If you are going to be a political person then at least be sensitive to what most approve and disapprove of.

The bottom line is simple to see. Bodybuilders are struggling to make a living from the sport and the IFBB cannot provide for many of them in any way.

I will say what I hinted at in a previous post. The IFBB has always been afraid that the best bodybuilders will go elsewhere if they were not happy. In 1981 5 of the top guys boycotted that Olympia and a second rate Franco won. There was nowhere else to go to compete and by then the Mr Olympia was THE contest to win. Somehow even the Mr Universe was not that important. This really is ironic. Who knows who is out there in this absolutely huge universe?  Bodybuilders might go elsewhere to try to make some money but they all dream of winning the Olympia so the IFBB need have no fear that they will lose what they have. This same fear has prevented the IFBB from doing serious drug testing. How difficult would it be for them to do random tests several times each year of the guys who qualify to compete? Joe and Ben made millions out of the sport. They could easily donate money to a fund that will pay for this testing. Heck, they could buy a whole lab! Until we have this strict testing bodybuilding is dead. End of story. Now how smart does anyone have to be to figure this out? Huh, anyone? I keep shaking my head. The public will be interested when full and honest testing is done. That includes testing for synthol and inserts. That goes for the women, too. It is possible to get the public to support pure bodybuilding. When that happens the money will come in and it will be a totally different sport and we won't have pathetic threads like this one!

I truly respect though and opinions, Vince.  A lot of people can learn a lot from your wisdom.


However, times have changed my friend.  Bodybuilders who market themselves right are making a lot of money these day.  The health industry is booming and with a simple PT certification, any bodybuilder or person in great shape can make a decent living. 

I do however thank people like you who did make it possible for this to happen.  Without people like you building the foundation, it would be a much different story

[240 is Back]

This aint 1974 anymore, Mr. Canada...times have changed.

Wow.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Wow.

Chick was harsh but he's right.  Its a different world from the 60's and 70's

[bestposer1]

I think Vince realizes that times have changed but in essence they haven't because the athletes still(can) make or break the IFBB.  What he is saying is that the athletes need to have some balls and make a stand.l

[sgt. d]

Wow.

ahahhahah chick own that tiny twat, ur next 

[Miss Karen]

Yeah Arnold is not around stolen cars.

[Vince B]

To Chick. I can talk about what you post on these discussion boards. Sorry if anything I said was inaccurate or caused you to be upset. I won in 1970. Those days weren't so good. The IFBB was the only organization in Canada and that remained true for a long time.

You are mistaken about the public and drugs in bodybuilding. Where have you been? I happen to own a gym and have done so since 1971. It is a big gym and better than anything owned by Joe Gold. I also design and build better equipment than Joe did. That is no big deal.

Here is how it works, Chick, regarding drugs. You guys that use a lot of these drugs obviously feel defensive about it all. Heck I used some Dianabol and am not proud to admit it. I used maybe 3 bottles of those pills on three occasions. That is about 10 bottles all up. I would be proud if I could say I never used those drugs. I didn't use any for over 11 years in the sport. I haven't used any since 1977 and won't.

Now forget about me for a moment and let us look at what the public believes re bodybuilders like yourself. They all assume you needed dangerous drugs to build those big muscles. Are they mistaken? Nope. That is the truth. There have been guys who have built good physiques drugfree but they were guys from way back even before my time. Since 1965 most champions have used some anabolic steroids. Even Arnold claims he didn't use what even the women use today! So how is the public going to be impressed with those big muscles if they are built using substances banned by the Olympic movement? If professional athletes are caught using these drugs they face bans and disqualification. At the professional level in bodybuilding that doesn't happen. So the public conclude that the sport is a dark and pathetic one. There is no need for anyone to be jealous of those big muscles because to get them you have to be nuts and you have to break the law and cheat to get that big. That is what the public and media believe. Are they mistaken? When you can convince the public that the sport is safe and clean you will get lots of interest. We bodybuilders have always been looked down on by the public. They always had to find an excuse to not accept our superiority in physiques. So they concluded we were conceited and mere mirror athletes. Then some accused us of being muscle bound. Others said we were gay and most bodybuilders must be dumb as well. Not a pretty picture. Nowadays many still have those misconceptions of bodybuilding but have the ultimate reason to reject those who have big muscles. We are all cheaters and must be foolish to risk our health using those dangerous drugs. We lost Ray and Mike Mentzer and several other top champions who died at what are young ages. Ray was 47. That is a tragedy. We have to eliminate drugs from the sport. If it means that a generation of bodybuilders will miss out then that is the price the sport will have to pay. It has gone too far. Men with breasts are winning masculine contests. Guys with no discernible muscle in their calves are winning the Olympia. Now you accuse me of being irrelevant and out of touch! The IFBB should be ashamed of itself.

[sgt. d]

To Chick. I can talk about what you post on these discussion boards. Sorry if anything I said was inaccurate or caused you to be upset. I won in 1970. Those days weren't so good. The IFBB was the only organization in Canada and that remained true for a long time.

You are mistaken about the public and drugs in bodybuilding. Where have you been? I happen to own a gym and have done so since 1971. It is a big gym and better than anything owned by Joe Gold. I also design and build better equipment than Joe did. That is no big deal.

Here is how it works, Chick, regarding drugs. You guys that use a lot of these drugs obviously feel defensive about it all. Heck I used some Dianabol and am not proud to admit it. I used maybe 3 bottles of those pills on three occasions. That is about 10 bottles all up. I would be proud if I could say I never used those drugs. I didn't use any for over 11 years in the sport. I haven't used any since 1977 and won't.

Now forget about me for a moment and let us look at what the public believes re bodybuilders like yourself. They all assume you needed dangerous drugs to build those big muscles. Are they mistaken? Nope. That is the truth. There have been guys who have built good physiques drugfree but they were guys from way back even before my time. Since 1965 most champions have used some anabolic steroids. Even Arnold claims he didn't use what even the women use today! So how is the public going to be impressed with those big muscles if they are built using substances banned by the Olympic movement? If professional athletes are caught using these drugs they face bans and disqualification. At the professional level in bodybuilding that doesn't happen. So the public conclude that the sport is a dark and pathetic one. There is no need for anyone to be jealous of those big muscles because to get them you have to be nuts and you have to break the law and cheat to get that big. That is what the public and media believe. Are they mistaken? When you can convince the public that the sport is safe and clean you will get lots of interest. We bodybuilders have always been looked down on by the public. They always had to find an excuse to not accept our superiority in physiques. So they concluded we were conceited and mere mirror athletes. Then some accused us of being muscle bound. Others said we were gay and most bodybuilders must be dumb as well. Not a pretty picture. Nowadays many still have those misconceptions of bodybuilding but have the ultimate reason to reject those who have big muscles. We are all cheaters and must be foolish to risk our health using those dangerous drugs. We lost Ray and Mike Mentzer and several other top champions who died at what are young ages. Ray was 47. That is a tragedy. We have to eliminate drugs from the sport. If it means that a generation of bodybuilders will miss out then that is the price the sport will have to pay. It has gone too far. Men with breasts are winning masculine contests. Guys with no discernible muscle in their calves are winning the Olympia. Now you accuse me of being irrelevant and out of touch! The IFBB should be ashamed of itself.

dayum dude, nobody came on here to read all these long ass research papers

narrow this shit down to  3 sentences to a paragraph

[Vince B]

Chick, you are right about things having changed since 1970. Things have deteriorated. The guys might be bigger but so what, look at what some have to do to obtain that size and condition. No thanks. I wouldn't encourage any youngster to compete in bodybuilding. I used to teach PE in school. Bodybuilding is an amazing activity. At my age it keeps me feeling young and if I can keep myself growing it is close to being the fountain of youth. I really resent the suggestion that just because someone is older they are clueless about what is going on in the sport. It is embarrassing to associate with bodybuilding today. I install amazing machines in my gym for bodybuilders. I have a big room full of free weights. So I support bodybuilding professionally and personally. I just cannot endorse what some do to achieve their size. When they win nothing and make little from the sport but risk their health that is sad to see. Instead of building magnificent physiques and being healthy we find guys who look amazing on stage but who have done dreadful things to their bodies.

[onlyme]

What is wrong, is BB has gone down the shitter for along time.  And the IFBB refuses to do anything about as long they can keep making the money who cares.  They know this.  They know the BB are so insecure they will do anything for the IFBB and with the IFBB if there is just a little chance of them becoming a champion and a star with some money.  The only problem is the dictate who gets the money and who wins.  They dictate who gets the pro cards.  The literally control every single IFBB members lives.  And the funny thing is they give nothing back.  And the worse thing is the members let them do what they want.  It's really sad.  So big and muscular yet they can't control their own lives. All that muscle and macho yet they can barely walk without having to ask the IFBB's permission.  How can anyone live like that.  Sorry but I am way to proud to be lead around on a leash.  I had my chance to do somethings but it meant lowering myself and having to be treated like a puppet.  Sorry but I like being in control.  It might have been the harder way but at least I don't have to answer to a bunch of old men jacking off behind the scenes and making a ton of money while I barely get by.

[jwb]

Drug ABUSE is the problem today and it's not steroid abuse but GH and insulin abuse.

These two drugs have fucked up the sport big time. Guys who have figured out their use generally break through and look good for a year or two but then the gut gets out of control.... think ronnie, jay, nasser, yates at the end, kamali, atwood, dennis james etc etc.

I wish steroids were the only drugs pros took then they'd look way better than today!

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

To Chick. I can talk about what you post on these discussion boards. Sorry if anything I said was inaccurate or caused you to be upset. I won in 1970. Those days weren't so good. The IFBB was the only organization in Canada and that remained true for a long time.

You are mistaken about the public and drugs in bodybuilding. Where have you been? I happen to own a gym and have done so since 1971. It is a big gym and better than anything owned by Joe Gold. I also design and build better equipment than Joe did. That is no big deal.

Here is how it works, Chick, regarding drugs. You guys that use a lot of these drugs obviously feel defensive about it all. Heck I used some Dianabol and am not proud to admit it. I used maybe 3 bottles of those pills on three occasions. That is about 10 bottles all up. I would be proud if I could say I never used those drugs. I didn't use any for over 11 years in the sport. I haven't used any since 1977 and won't.

Now forget about me for a moment and let us look at what the public believes re bodybuilders like yourself. They all assume you needed dangerous drugs to build those big muscles. Are they mistaken? Nope. That is the truth. There have been guys who have built good physiques drugfree but they were guys from way back even before my time. Since 1965 most champions have used some anabolic steroids. Even Arnold claims he didn't use what even the women use today! So how is the public going to be impressed with those big muscles if they are built using substances banned by the Olympic movement? If professional athletes are caught using these drugs they face bans and disqualification. At the professional level in bodybuilding that doesn't happen. So the public conclude that the sport is a dark and pathetic one. There is no need for anyone to be jealous of those big muscles because to get them you have to be nuts and you have to break the law and cheat to get that big. That is what the public and media believe. Are they mistaken? When you can convince the public that the sport is safe and clean you will get lots of interest. We bodybuilders have always been looked down on by the public. They always had to find an excuse to not accept our superiority in physiques. So they concluded we were conceited and mere mirror athletes. Then some accused us of being muscle bound. Others said we were gay and most bodybuilders must be dumb as well. Not a pretty picture. Nowadays many still have those misconceptions of bodybuilding but have the ultimate reason to reject those who have big muscles. We are all cheaters and must be foolish to risk our health using those dangerous drugs. We lost Ray and Mike Mentzer and several other top champions who died at what are young ages. Ray was 47. That is a tragedy. We have to eliminate drugs from the sport. If it means that a generation of bodybuilders will miss out then that is the price the sport will have to pay. It has gone too far. Men with breasts are winning masculine contests. Guys with no discernible muscle in their calves are winning the Olympia. Now you accuse me of being irrelevant and out of touch! The IFBB should be ashamed of itself.

First off Mike Mentzer's father died of the same thing right around his age.  Joanne Sharkey can vouch for that.

No 2, drugs are in all sports and people are going to assume whatever they hear in the news.  Bodybuilders were considered dumb as Dave Draper "Don't make Waves" or Muscle Beach Party with Biff and his gang (Larry Scott). 


No 3 and you should know this good and well.  Steroids were much more powerful back then than today.  You didn't need much because steroids were not banned and legit companies were making it instead of underground labs where the stuff is mostly diluted or fake.  More steroids are being used but at the same time supplements, training, and nutrition have greatly improved.  No more wheat germ, brewer's yeast, and Knox Gelatin ( I still use Knox, good for the joints) to depend on.



Come on Vince, you have to admit that some things have changed and other unfortunately haven't   

[Chick]

You're out of touch...

The general public doesn't like bodybuilding because it doesn't appeal to the general public. It only appeals to the fitness market, and the small nitch market of "hardcore" fans...THATS IT.

We don't have to appeal to "mainstream America"...we need to appeal to OUR OWN fans, first and foremost.

You honestly think that if bodybuilders were clean and scaled down, the numbers of fans would INCREASE? Lolololol...We have those shows already, they're called "Natural shows", and they don't exactly sell the place out...they're not even supported by bodybuilding fans in general...family and friends, thats all.

ENTERTAINMENT is what sells, and bodybuilding is inherrantly BORING...even to bodybuilders. Without bringing up the entertainment value, the numbers will remain status quo...nothing more, nothing less. World Xhampionship Poker even figured this out and draws record attendance now and TV ratings have skyrocketed....WHY? Because they started featuring tthe PERSONALITIES of the players...much like the UFC, or the best example...WWE.

People have to CARE who wins, loses, gets screwed, etc, etc.

This has nothing to do with drugs...everyone knows athletes in all walks of sports take steroids, etc. Do you see MN Football ratings dropping? MLB? Oympics? Tour DeFrance...if anything, the whole drug scandal surrounding Lance Armstrong only made people watch even more...before that, who gave a shit about watching guys biking for hunderds of miles?

Money in sports comes primarily from ONE source...TV revenue. We (bodybuilding) have none because were not entertaining enough to sustain ratings to justify the time. Make it more entertaining...we pick up TV time...pick up TV time...we pick up SPONSORS willing to pay big dollars to advertise their products to thousands of fans tuning in, or paying the PPV, etc.

You're living in the past , my friend...and I'm doing more than anybody to initiate change. No offense, but please don't talk about what I'm doing/ not doing when you really don't know.

BTW...5 guys did boycott the 1981 Olympia. Guess what came of it? NOTHING...They were all back the next year bitching about Franco winning and costing themselves money trying to make a point. Should tell you a little something about what works and what doesn't.

[Yev33]

In order to make bodybuilding more appealing to the public, you have to view bodybuilding from the general public's point of view.  And I would have to agree with Vince on how the general public views our sport. When you think about it, what other sport on this planet has to make distinctions between "open" and "natural" competitions.

[sgt. d]

First off Mike Mentzer's father died of the same thing right around his age.  Joanne Sharkey can vouch for that.

No 2, drugs are in all sports and people are going to assume whatever they hear in the news.  Bodybuilders were considered dumb as Dave Draper "Don't make Waves" or Muscle Beach Party with Biff and his gang (Larry Scott). 


No 3 and you should know this good and well.  Steroids were much more powerful back then than today.  You didn't need much because steroids were not banned and legit companies were making it instead of underground labs where the stuff is mostly diluted or fake.  More steroids are being used but at the same time supplements, training, and nutrition have greatly improved.  No more wheat germ, brewer's yeast, and Knox Gelatin ( I still use Knox, good for the joints) to depend on.



Come on Vince, you have to admit that some things have changed and other unfortunately haven't   

just wondering, what does csn mft stand for?

[jwb]

In the early 80's steroids were no big deal to the public... they even talked about them on the network TV olympia broadcast (I still have the tape).

Natural bodybuilding ISN'T the way to go.

AESTHETIC bodybuilding is the way to go in which drug ABUSERS generally don't fair too well...

[Vince B]

Okay, Chick, you want to talk about state of the art? Tell me where the only gym in the world is that has a biceps-supinator machine? Answer? My gym in Sydney. I have designed machines that Golds Gym, Venice does not have. I am reasonably up to date re theories of hypertrophy and have original ideas and have written about them a few years ago in Ironman. I have taken photos of Mr Olympias and had them on the covers of magazines. I have run contests with others and created rules for judgings these contests.

Now what has happened since 1970 that is so praiseworthy? The gyms have improved, equipment has improved, supplements have improved, sports science has improved and why shouldn't bodybuilders be able to build huge physiques naturally? How would anyone know what is possible if almost all the best guys end up using drugs? Answer? We will never know. So don't suggest I am mistaken and out of touch. I keep myself informed. Are you suggesting I am blind and cannot see the bitch tits of Ronnie, Jay and several of the others? Are you saying I cannot see that Ronnie has no cuts in his calves? How can the IFBB endorse that? Are you suggesting that I cannot detect the synthol in the shoulders of many of the guys competing today? It is pathetic. That isn't bodybuilding but a sham. I won't even start on commenting on the women because that is really pathetic.

[Yev33]

I agree that aesthetic bodybuilding is the way to go, the problem is that it is very difficult to clearly define aesthetic. It means different things to different people, pretty much the only things that are fairly clear cut are size, conditioning, and proportion. And deep down inside I think that everyone can admit that Ronnie displays those three qualities better than anyone else in the world. Is it aesthetic? That's a whole different story.

[Vince B]

Maybe we can get the Adonis and 240 to come to Sydney and in one year I will build them up naturally to an amazing size. That should demonstrate the ability I have.

[honest]

You're out of touch...

The general public doesn't like bodybuilding because it doesn't appeal to the general public. It only appeals to the fitness market, and the small nitch market of "hardcore" fans...THATS IT.

We don't have to appeal to "mainstream America"...we need to appeal to OUR OWN fans, first and foremost.

You honestly think that if bodybuilders were clean and scaled down, the numbers of fans would INCREASE? Lolololol...We have those shows already, they're called "Natural shows", and they don't exactly sell the place out...they're not even supported by bodybuilding fans in general...family and friends, thats all.

ENTERTAINMENT is what sells, and bodybuilding is inherrantly BORING...even to bodybuilders. Without bringing up the entertainment value, the numbers will remain status quo...nothing more, nothing less. World Xhampionship Poker even figured this out and draws record attendance now and TV ratings have skyrocketed....WHY? Because they started featuring tthe PERSONALITIES of the players...much like the UFC, or the best example...WWE.

People have to CARE who wins, loses, gets screwed, etc, etc.

This has nothing to do with drugs...everyone knows athletes in all walks of sports take steroids, etc. Do you see MN Football ratings dropping? MLB? Oympics? Tour DeFrance...if anything, the whole drug scandal surrounding Lance Armstrong only made people watch even more...before that, who gave a shit about watching guys biking for hunderds of miles?

Money in sports comes primarily from ONE source...TV revenue. We (bodybuilding) have none because were not entertaining enough to sustain ratings to justify the time. Make it more entertaining...we pick up TV time...pick up TV time...we pick up SPONSORS willing to pay big dollars to advertise their products to thousands of fans tuning in, or paying the PPV, etc.

You're living in the past , my friend...and I'm doing more than anybody to initiate change. No offense, but please don't talk about what I'm doing/ not doing when you really don't know.

BTW...5 guys did boycott the 1981 Olympia. Guess what came of it? NOTHING...They were all back the next year bitching about Franco winning and costing themselves money trying to make a point. Should tell you a little something about what works and what doesn't.

Good post Chick, very valid points.

[Chick]

Maybe we can get the Adonis and 240 to come to Sydney and in one year I will build them up naturally to an amazing size. That should demonstrate the ability I have.

They're all yours...

[honest]

Maybe we can get the Adonis and 240 to come to Sydney and in one year I will build them up naturally to an amazing size. That should demonstrate the ability I have.

Now your losing me Vince, and your credibillity rating just went down, natural bodybuilding sucks worse than Ronnie does, some where in the middle is where we should be Like a 223 Flex or 230 Leverone, none of this mass with no class crap, or naturals who look like they just got off survivor.