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Author Topic: New car negotiation  (Read 9332 times)
BayGBM
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2006, 08:36:16 AM »

Yea those where a few of my main beefs witht he m3. Biggest one being the winters out here are brutal. That is why I am waiting for the new evo to come out before I buy anything. It is 16 grand less than a new m3 also. Just as fast if not faster. The m3 is well a m3. Bad ass car no doubt.

Thanks for the advice.

As you know Bmers are real wheel drive.  Obviously, you'll want the stability control option if you live where it snows.  I've only owned mine in CA and FL so that has never been a concern for me.  You really should be having this discussion over at car and driver.  Participants in the forums there will give you much better advice than anything you can get on a bodybuilding board.

http://www.caranddriver.com/idealbb/

Post in the Pure Luxury and Sports and GT Cars forums for Bmer talk. Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2006, 08:39:51 AM »

I disagree.  That used to be true (and perhaps still is) when you finance the car through the dealership’s financing arm but these days most people bring their own financing (bank, credit union, etc.) so the dealer gets all the cash for the car up front.  Any financing issues/problems you may have down the road is between you and your bank—not the dealership.

They already got all the cash up front from your bank so dealerships no longer have an incentive to negotiate based on how much cash you are personally putting down.  Sad


Then we agree to disagree  Grin  From what I've experienced many people still do finance through the dealerships assorted banks.  The whole sales process is geared that way.  Unless you are on top of your game, many do not even think to go get financing outside of the dealership.   And it's for that reason that cash is still king.
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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2006, 08:44:14 AM »

As an aside.  The entire new car buying process actually sucks.  It's something that you only do a handfull of times or so in a lifetime, and it's for that reason that so many people get scalped in the first place  Sad  Unprepared for the vigors of negotiation, lack of research, and falling in love with something particular.  Combine that with commission hungry salespeople, finance people etc. and you have a recipe for disaster.
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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2006, 08:48:35 AM »

As an insight...My first job out of the Army was selling cars.  I've seen it from the other side and unfortunatly been a part of it first hand.  True its been many years since then and thankfully I changed course and got out of it ages ago, but from my experience selling them and as a buyer of cars for myself, 2 wives and even my parents, I think I've got a good idea of the information I'm sharing here.
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2006, 09:15:35 AM »

Yea those where a few of my main beefs witht he m3. Biggest one being the winters out here are brutal. That is why I am waiting for the new evo to come out before I buy anything. It is 16 grand less than a new m3 also. Just as fast if not faster. The m3 is well a m3. Bad ass car no doubt.

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, the M3 is rear wheel drive but it also has traction control and a limited slip system that will prevent excessive tire spin, it also has a relatively understressed engine.

The new Evo while 4 wheel drive it is also turbocharged and EXTREMELY high strung. The tires will be essentially street racing tires and the engine won't produce any power or torque below 3,000 RPM and after that the power will hit like a bomb.

As high strung and one purposed as the new Evo will be it won't be good in the city with snow and ice on the ground. I would bet the M3 will on par with or easier to drive in the city in the winter than the Evo.

And don't forget that Mitsubishi builds garbage, their quality control is not on par with other Japanese automakers.

While the Evo's are cool and they perform incredibly they aren't M3's. The M3 is a whole different class of automobile with a luxurious interior and excellent build quality.

To me the difference between an M3 and an Evo is a no brainer. If cost is your only concern shop around, there are plenty of M3's in our area and plenty of dealers. Hell, buy one that's a year old and save yourself $10,000.

If excessive wind or tire roar were a problem for you in the M3 they are only going to be magnified even more in the Evo. Mitsubishi is not a quality automobile manufacturer.
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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2006, 09:31:32 AM »

As an insight...My first job out of the Army was selling cars.  I've seen it from the other side and unfortunatly been a part of it first hand.  True its been many years since then and thankfully I changed course and got out of it ages ago, but from my experience selling them and as a buyer of cars for myself, 2 wives and even my parents, I think I've got a good idea of the information I'm sharing here.

im looking for a 68 camero super sport in black any help?    Grin
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« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2006, 09:48:14 AM »

im looking for a 68 camero super sport in black any help?    Grin

Start here...  http://www.hemmings.com/

 Wink
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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2006, 01:05:51 PM »

Yes, the M3 is rear wheel drive but it also has traction control and a limited slip system that will prevent excessive tire spin, it also has a relatively understressed engine.

The new Evo while 4 wheel drive it is also turbocharged and EXTREMELY high strung. The tires will be essentially street racing tires and the engine won't produce any power or torque below 3,000 RPM and after that the power will hit like a bomb.

As high strung and one purposed as the new Evo will be it won't be good in the city with snow and ice on the ground. I would bet the M3 will on par with or easier to drive in the city in the winter than the Evo.

And don't forget that Mitsubishi builds garbage, their quality control is not on par with other Japanese automakers.

While the Evo's are cool and they perform incredibly they aren't M3's. The M3 is a whole different class of automobile with a luxurious interior and excellent build quality.

To me the difference between an M3 and an Evo is a no brainer. If cost is your only concern shop around, there are plenty of M3's in our area and plenty of dealers. Hell, buy one that's a year old and save yourself $10,000.

If excessive wind or tire roar were a problem for you in the M3 they are only going to be magnified even more in the Evo. Mitsubishi is not a quality automobile manufacturer.

Thanks for the points.I am going to have to disagree tho. My buddys m3 is absolutly awful in the snow. Traction control and limited slip difs dont do shit in legit snow or ice. I have a friend  who has an evo mr. Loves the thing. When I drove it I thought it was great. It is also 16 thousand less than a m3. Cost is not a huge deal. But  I am not spending over 45 grand. The new evo looks amazing. I have to see it before I make the descision. The car is based on a rally car. Snow tires or not it will ride better in the snow than a m3. I owned a 3 series with "traction control" a few years back. The thing was horrendus in the snow. I can only imagine the m3 with the sport tires and wheels. I do love that car tho. I am still looking at the nissan z track edition also.

It is really between the track edition z and the new evo x. The m3 is a consideration. But to be honest I do not feel like spending 50 grand. I want a brand new ride. No pre owned this time.
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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2006, 01:39:28 PM »

Thanks for the points.I am going to have to disagree tho. My buddys m3 is absolutly awful in the snow. Traction control and limited slip difs dont do shit in legit snow or ice. I have a friend  who has an evo mr. Loves the thing. When I drove it I thought it was great. It is also 16 thousand less than a m3. Cost is not a huge deal. But  I am not spending over 45 grand. The new evo looks amazing. I have to see it before I make the descision. The car is based on a rally car. Snow tires or not it will ride better in the snow than a m3. I owned a 3 series with "traction control" a few years back. The thing was horrendus in the snow. I can only imagine the m3 with the sport tires and wheels. I do love that car tho. I am still looking at the nissan z track edition also.

It is really between the track edition z and the new evo x. The m3 is a consideration. But to be honest I do not feel like spending 50 grand. I want a brand new ride. No pre owned this time.

I love how polite you were in disagreeing with me. LOL
I must admit I've never driven an EVO but I've heard horror stories about them. I've driven many M3's and always loved them, they're not the fastest cars in the world but they were incredibly fun to drive. Depending on how you drive any car can be a bear in the snow and ice, tires make a huge difference so does starting out in 2nd gear from a stop. Do you have experience driving the EVO in snow and ice? Have you been in the car when the turbo hit and the roads were slippery? Admittedly 4 wheel drive is a beautiful thing but the EVO can be a handful, again this isn't firsthand knowledge just what I've read and gleamed from talking to people.

A few things to think about, resale value and cost of ownership. Let's say you keep the car 2 years. What will a 2 year old M3 that is coming to the end of it's warranty be worth and what will a 2 year old EVO that is coming to the end of it's warranty be worth?

The cost of repair on EVO's has historically been high, one of the reasons is that they are driven so hard but another is that they are powered by small turbocharged engines that are highly stressed. And I've heard about horror stories of Mitsubishi not honoring their warranties for a number of reasons. If you do any kind of autocross racing (what the EVO is built for) Mitsubishi will not honor the warranty.

Cost of ownership I would put at about even between the two, maybe a little higher for the EVO but probably not by much.

How much value have two year old M3's and EVO's lost?

I like the 350Z's but don't love them, I think they're underpowered and I'm not a huge fan of the wedge shape. I prefer the Infiniti version better, it's not as hardcore a driver but I think it's better looking.

Sorry for the long post.
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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2006, 02:59:38 PM »

No no, I appreciate all the knowledge. You seem to know alot about cars. I just got back from driving the 350 z "track" edition. Have you seen it? Very nice. But I do agree. It is underpowered. To be honest I drove a brand new wrx sti and although it was ugly as sin, the thing would murder a 350 in a road race. The z is out.

I have not  had experience with a evo mr in the snow. but have driven them. The only beef i had was the car was its blah interior. But with the new evo x coming out it has been completely redone from the ground up. including now over 300 horses with less total weight. All the moans and groans on the evo have apparently been addressed. I cannot say for certain this car will live up to all the hype but I have to wait until it comes out so I can see. It is due for US release in easily oct.

The m3 is just that an m3. Nuff said! Wonderful car. But to get a new one I am going to have to drop 50k. The weather is so shitty out here I do not know if I can hack the rwd.

You think the infiniti is a better buy than the z? Any advice on cars in that demographic (m3,evo,z) would be much appreciated.

Thanks


Also here are some shots of the new evo x.


* sick.jpg (21.52 KB, 450x276 - viewed 129 times.)

* 20093080-T.jpg (5.33 KB, 175x110 - viewed 130 times.)

* 20093081-T.jpg (4.37 KB, 175x110 - viewed 118 times.)

* 07EvoX.jpg (56.9 KB, 638x425 - viewed 227 times.)
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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2006, 03:16:15 PM »

The M3 is an expensive toy and that’s all it is.  Use it as such—in good weather.  If you need a vehicle that can handle snow and ice you need to have a second vehicle or you need to buy a different car entirely.  With few exceptions Bmers should be purchased with the sport package.  If you need the winter package you really need access to a second (winter ready) car.

It doesn’t sound like an M3  is compatible with your lifestyle (annual snow and ice).  Undecided
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2006, 03:29:49 PM »

The M3 is an expensive toy and that’s all it is.  Use it as such—in good weather.  If you need a vehicle that can handle snow and ice you need to have a second vehicle or you need to buy a different car entirely.  With few exceptions Bmers should be purchased with the sport package.  If you need the winter package you really need access to a second (winter ready) car.

It doesn’t sound like an M3  is compatible with your lifestyle (annual snow and ice).  Undecided


Yes you are right. I would need a second car. That is my dilemma. I would not put a beauty of a new m3 through tire spinning sliding Undecided The weather here is good except for the 4 month winter. Tons of snow cold as hell.

The evo x is just as fast as the m, 14 less,handles just as good if not better and all wheel drive. Its not an m tho Sad If you go to utube and enter evo vs gollardo you can see an evo m/r race and perform comparably with a gollardo
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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2006, 03:47:27 PM »

My trade in is worth 26 k according to the blue book. I have about 6 grand to put down.
Instead of trading with the dealer, go to the nearest carmax and sell it to them. I was still financing a vehicle and my trade in was -$1,500.00 according to the dealer. Carmax paid the $1500.00 and I DID NOT buy a car from them. Took abaout 30 minutes with all the paperwork.
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« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2006, 03:56:28 PM »

You sound like a commercial for the Evo.
Almost as good as… BMW
Just as good as… BMW
Cheaper than… BMW
Better value than… BMW
And on and on…

You already know what the bottom line is:  it’s not a BMW! There is a reason why competitors like to compare themselves to a BMW and you already know what it is so why play games with yourself?  Maybe you need to own this car for a while to get it out of your system.  I did and now I’m content to go back to a Honda or Toyota.

As for the Evo… why spend all that money to get a car that is an imitation of what you really want?  That doesn’t make much sense to me.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2006, 04:08:19 PM »

Yes, the M3 is rear wheel drive but it also has traction control and a limited slip system that will prevent excessive tire spin, it also has a relatively understressed engine.

The new Evo while 4 wheel drive it is also turbocharged and EXTREMELY high strung. The tires will be essentially street racing tires and the engine won't produce any power or torque below 3,000 RPM and after that the power will hit like a bomb.

I would bet the M3 will on par with or easier to drive in the city in the winter than the Evo.

Mitsubishi is not a quality automobile manufacturer.

The M3 engine is not understressed, getting 300bhp+ from a little over 3 litres in a normally aspirated engine takes a fair ammount of skill from BMW....its the Evo's engine which is understressed, 300bhp from a 2 litre turbo is fuck all....they sell the Evo FQ400 in Britain with over 400bhp and full manufacturers warranty, rally teams tune them higher still.

As for driving in ice or snow, 4WD always trumps 2WD regardless of all the toys like traction control etc....2WD cars havent been used in rallying for decades, when it comes to ultimate control on slippery surfaces go for 4WD.

The lack of power before the turbo comes on boost is actually beneficial when driving in tricky conditions....you just keep the engine below 3000rpm and its as friendly and docile as can be, coupled with 4WD i'd take the Evo in snow anyday.

BMW may be percieved as a quality manufacturer but that depends on how you define quality?....is quality a solid build and luxury interior or is quality longevity and reliability?
In every motoring survey conducted in the UK for the last god knows how many years the jap cars have shown themselves to be the most reliable while the 'quality' german makes like BMW and Mercedes continue to slip down the rankings....

...however, they're both nice cars.

I'd take the BMW, more fun to be had with RWD...
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« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2006, 04:59:47 PM »

Thanks guys. I just found out the evolution 9 is coming out in a month and a half so I am going to hold of till I can drive the little monster. It is between that and the new m3. But the new evo is supposed to be insane. Lighter with more horses than the old(the new one will have over 300. The old was 290). 18 grand less than  the m3 two : ) I was looking at a jet black m3. They wanted just under 50 for it. Only thing is real wheel drive is a pain around here. The new evo will be around 36 grand. Sick cars. ( I am into road racing cars, not a drag guy)

  a friend of mine just bought an evo8 it is ok but if you are looking at something like that i would look at a sti my other buddie got one of those and stock to stock the sti is a little better. they are both really fun cars to drive i live in the mtns and we go out all the time the sti would kill the evo in a mtn course. just thought you should know
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« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2006, 05:27:30 PM »

The M3 engine is not understressed, getting 300bhp+ from a little over 3 litres in a normally aspirated engine takes a fair ammount of skill from BMW....its the Evo's engine which is understressed, 300bhp from a 2 litre turbo is f**k all....they sell the Evo FQ400 in Britain with over 400bhp and full manufacturers warranty, rally teams tune them higher still.

As for driving in ice or snow, 4WD always trumps 2WD regardless of all the toys like traction control etc....2WD cars havent been used in rallying for decades, when it comes to ultimate control on slippery surfaces go for 4WD.

The lack of power before the turbo comes on boost is actually beneficial when driving in tricky conditions....you just keep the engine below 3000rpm and its as friendly and docile as can be, coupled with 4WD i'd take the Evo in snow anyday.

BMW may be percieved as a quality manufacturer but that depends on how you define quality?....is quality a solid build and luxury interior or is quality longevity and reliability?
In every motoring survey conducted in the UK for the last god knows how many years the jap cars have shown themselves to be the most reliable while the 'quality' german makes like BMW and Mercedes continue to slip down the rankings....

...however, they're both nice cars.

I'd take the BMW, more fun to be had with RWD...

I'll take your last point first, typical Japanese manufactures (ie. Honda and Toyota) are considered better in regards to build quality than the big 3 German automakers. Mitsubishi is not a typical Japanese automaker. Mitsubishi is a third tier Japanese automaker, in fact they are on the verge of pulling out of the US all together. Compare Acura, Honda, Toyota and Lexus with Audi, BMW and Mercedes all you want but don't compare Mitsubishi with them. In fact, Mercedes has had many issues with build quality lately so they are a step below the big Japanese automakers.

Mitsubishi's build quality is not good. They are on par with the Chrysler family of cars. In fact I believe Chrysler might have a stake in Mitsubishi.

Did you really say that a 2.0 liter inline 4 putting out over 300 hp via turbocharging and intercooling isn't stressed? Are you serious? Yet you think a 3.3 liter inline 6 putting out roughly the same horsepower is stressed? LOL I'm not quite sure if you actually believe that or if you're just clueless.

100 horsepower per liter naturally aspirated is a good amount and twenty years ago it would have been an incredible amount, not today. The Evo puts out nearly 150 horsepower per liter via turbocharging which puts incredible stress on the engine yet you don't think it's stressed. I'm still a little shocked by that.

You're right about the 4wd trumping 2wd in the snow and ice but I still don't like the on/off nature of the Evo's engine regarding driving in dangerous conditions in a big city, where body lives. Although you're wrong about the benefits of way the engine produces power. The problem is that the power hits too suddenly as opposed to the constant stream of power that naturally aspirated engines produce.

If for example body were to mistakenly get into the powerband coming around a corner in the snow in the city he could slide too far and swipe parked cars which are everywhere in Boston.

Of course he could do the same in an M3 but he would be able to better modulate the power because of the way it comes on, which is smooth and steady. As far as handling goes considering the M3's rear wheel drive he'd be dealing with oversteer which can be controlled with the throttle.

If the Evo weren't turbocharged and it generated it's power through size and natural aspiration I wouldn't be posting any of this. The Evo would be the clear winner.

In fact I'm really looking for situations to be negative about with the Evo, 4 wheel drive is so much better in the snow and ice that it's not even debatable.

I don't really like Mitsubishi, I don't think they build quality.
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« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2006, 05:37:25 PM »

No no, I appreciate all the knowledge. You seem to know alot about cars. I just got back from driving the 350 z "track" edition. Have you seen it? Very nice. But I do agree. It is underpowered. To be honest I drove a brand new wrx sti and although it was ugly as sin, the thing would murder a 350 in a road race. The z is out.

I have not  had experience with a evo mr in the snow. but have driven them. The only beef i had was the car was its blah interior. But with the new evo x coming out it has been completely redone from the ground up. including now over 300 horses with less total weight. All the moans and groans on the evo have apparently been addressed. I cannot say for certain this car will live up to all the hype but I have to wait until it comes out so I can see. It is due for US release in easily oct.

The m3 is just that an m3. Nuff said! Wonderful car. But to get a new one I am going to have to drop 50k. The weather is so shitty out here I do not know if I can hack the rwd.

You think the infiniti is a better buy than the z? Any advice on cars in that demographic (m3,evo,z) would be much appreciated.

Thanks


Also here are some shots of the new evo x.

body, I like the Infiniti's styling better but it's clearly a more sedate car. It's not a sports car. It's not really even a GT because it's so underpowered.

From what you've said in this thread I don't think you'd enjoy the Infiniti, too tame. In fact the M3 is tame compared to the Evo. The Evo is a single minded beast, it's nearly all conquering in it's single purpose but it's not that great as a daily driver. If you just want to have fun for a year or so and don't mind living without the luxurious touches you've enjoyed in the M3 then go for the Evo. It won't disappoint for a year, any longer than that and it will probably grow tiresome unless you have another car to use as a daily driver.


How about this, play with the Evo for 12 months keeping while taking excellent care of it and then trade it in. The new Evo looks pretty damn good and you know it's going to run like a race car.
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« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2006, 05:45:51 PM »

I'll take your last point first, typical Japanese manufactures (ie. Honda and Toyota) are considered better in regards to build quality than the big 3 German automakers. Mitsubishi is not a typical Japanese automaker. Mitsubishi is a third tier Japanese automaker, in fact they are on the verge of pulling out of the US all together. Compare Acura, Honda, Toyota and Lexus with Audi, BMW and Mercedes all you want but don't compare Mitsubishi with them. In fact, Mercedes has had many issues with build quality lately so they are a step below the big Japanese automakers.

Mitsubishi's build quality is not good. They are on par with the Chrysler family of cars. In fact I believe Chrysler might have a stake in Mitsubishi.

I agree.  Sad
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« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2006, 07:24:08 PM »

I think the picture of that car is orgasmic.

That being said, start a spreadsheet right now so you can quickly assemble a list of averages for your negotiations.  And don't be afraid to walk and try more dealerships in your state.  And, check ebay.  Find someone in a jam, someone who made a mistake, etc.  Every car I've ever owned, I have fallen into a good situation, where somone was too old to drive, just inherited a new one, etc, and I got them for less than market value.  Good luck!
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« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2006, 08:53:22 PM »

If a car is around 46 grand new. How much is a good opening negotiation bid? What I mean is how low should I shoot below my real figure I would pay?

Good luck.

The old sticker price. All I can say is take your quotes, average them out and if it's lower than their MSRP let that be your "I'm out the door" price if they can't hit it,but don't start negotiations with your max.limit. Go a little under because they might/will hit you with that "your here" "we're here" "let's meet somewhere in between" speech....let your average be your limit and be prepared to walk if they don't hit it for you.

If you have documented quotes from online, a good sales manager MIGHT try to honor that to get another sale out the door so bring them with you. It depends though. If you have an old school GREASE sales manager he's probably a hard a$$ and take you asking for a lower MSRP personally. An educated mofo would see the business side and try to work something out. I've dealt with both when I used to sell rides. 

 
Try to go at the end of the month. Those bastards have a quota to hit. Rainy days are good also. Some sales managers compete amongst themselves,  a sales manager that can "get out" 10-15 cars on a rainy day will give your agent better numbers to close deals just to brag to the GM that he got out 10 - 15 rides on a rainy day and the other sales managers can't get that out on dry days.

Other lines you might here. If it's a 46,000 car "what price where you expecting!" "You are paying for quality and luxury here" "the numbers you show don't include: shipping: railway/trucking, Lot fee's for storing vehicle...etc,etc"

I had some time to waste 5 years ago and some money in the bank, so I decided to experiment with car sales to see the in/outs(seriously my girlfriend thought I was nuts...LOL). I have to say it was pretty interesting to say the least. Pays well once you get on a roll though. Once pulled in almost 3 grand for two days work once. Paid off though. I bought my car in like record 30 min off the truck. No hassle. Told family members exactly word for word what was going to go down on deals ....and my little brother actually is a very successful salesman now for Nissan.

Oh yeah, if they do go down...tell them mofo's you want that to include tax,title and "fees" lol they will LOVE that one.

Go get em!

good luck man.   
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« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2006, 10:32:04 PM »

if you're not set on what car you're going to buy, i'd suggest looking at audis.

audi S4 06 sport sedan should be in your price range, and it has plenty of horses, which iirc, come online quicker than even the M3s'. handles really well, but kind of a gas guzzler . . . only drawback. 
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« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2006, 10:41:30 PM »

  a friend of mine just bought an evo8 it is ok but if you are looking at something like that i would look at a sti my other buddie got one of those and stock to stock the sti is a little better. they are both really fun cars to drive i live in the mtns and we go out all the time the sti would kill the evo in a mtn course. just thought you should know

Thanks man. How did your buddy get an evo 8? Are they out in other countries? I drove the sti. Loved it. But it is ugly as sin Embarrassed
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body88
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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2006, 10:42:50 PM »

I think the picture of that car is orgasmic.

That being said, start a spreadsheet right now so you can quickly assemble a list of averages for your negotiations.  And don't be afraid to walk and try more dealerships in your state.  And, check ebay.  Find someone in a jam, someone who made a mistake, etc.  Every car I've ever owned, I have fallen into a good situation, where somone was too old to drive, just inherited a new one, etc, and I got them for less than market value.  Good luck!

I know right the thing looks bad ass. Thanks for the advice. Any tips on how not to get scamed on ebay? I plan top buy all the audio goodies I will put in it from that site. Never used the site before. Thanks for the help man appreciate it.
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body88
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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2006, 10:44:33 PM »

if you're not set on what car you're going to buy, i'd suggest looking at audis.

audi S4 06 sport sedan should be in your price range, and it has plenty of horses, which iirc, come online quicker than even the M3s'. handles really well, but kind of a gas guzzler . . . only drawback. 

Did not think of the s. Will drive one soon. Thanks for the tip!
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