Author Topic: christians and political power don't mix?  (Read 3412 times)

Al-Gebra

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christians and political power don't mix?
« on: August 03, 2006, 02:56:47 PM »
July 30, 2006
Disowning Conservative Politics, Evangelical Pastor Rattles Flock

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Correction Appended
MAPLEWOOD, Minn. — Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing — and the church’s — to conservative political candidates and causes.

The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”

Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God’s ideal. The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul — packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals — was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.

But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share.

“Most of my friends are believers,” said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, “and they think if you’re a believer, you’ll vote for Bush. And it’s scary to go against that.”

Sermons like Mr. Boyd’s are hardly typical in today’s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.

At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written “Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America — an Evangelical’s Lament.”

And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, “The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,” which is based on his sermons.

“There is a lot of discontent brewing,” said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the “emerging church,” which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.

“More and more people are saying this has gone too far — the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,” Mr. McLaren said. “You cannot say the word ‘Jesus’ in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can’t say the word ‘Christian,’ and you certainly can’t say the word ‘evangelical’ without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.

“Because people think, ‘Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ‘activist judges.’ ”

Mr. Boyd said he had cleared his sermons with the church’s board, but his words left some in his congregation stunned. Some said that he was disrespecting President Bush and the military, that he was soft on abortion or telling them not to vote.

“When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”

Mr. Boyd, 49, who preaches in blue jeans and rumpled plaid shirts, leads a church that occupies a squat block-long building that was once a home improvement chain store.

The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd’s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel University in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.

He is known among evangelicals for a bestselling book, “Letters From a Skeptic,” based on correspondence with his father, a leftist union organizer and a lifelong agnostic — an exchange that eventually persuaded his father to embrace Christianity.

Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.

Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.

In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others — by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars. Christians should instead seek to have “power under” others — “winning people’s hearts” by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.

“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

“I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”

Mr. Boyd lambasted the “hypocrisy and pettiness” of Christians who focus on “sexual issues” like homosexuality, abortion or Janet Jackson’s breast-revealing performance at the Super Bowl halftime show. He said Christians these days were constantly outraged about sex and perceived violations of their rights to display their faith in public.

“Those are the two buttons to push if you want to get Christians to act,” he said. “And those are the two buttons Jesus never pushed.”

Some Woodland Hills members said they applauded the sermons because they had resolved their conflicted feelings. David Churchill, a truck driver for U.P.S. and a Teamster for 26 years, said he had been “raised in a religious-right home” but was torn between the Republican expectations of faith and family and the Democratic expectations of his union.

When Mr. Boyd preached his sermons, “it was liberating to me,” Mr. Churchill said.

Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said.

Mary Van Sickle, the family pastor at Woodland Hills, said she lost 20 volunteers who had been the backbone of the church’s Sunday school.

“They said, ‘You’re not doing what the church is supposed to be doing, which is supporting the Republican way,’ ” she said. “It was some of my best volunteers.”

The Rev. Paul Eddy, a theology professor at Bethel University and the teaching pastor at Woodland Hills, said: “Greg is an anomaly in the megachurch world. He didn’t give a whit about church leadership, never read a book about church growth. His biggest fear is that people will think that all church is is a weekend carnival, with people liking the worship, the music, his speaking, and that’s it.”

In the end, those who left tended to be white, middle-class suburbanites, church staff members said. In their place, the church has added more members who live in the surrounding community — African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos.

This suits Mr. Boyd. His vision for his church is an ethnically and economically diverse congregation that exemplifies Jesus’ teachings by its members’ actions. He, his wife and three other families from the church moved from the suburbs three years ago to a predominantly black neighborhood in St. Paul.

Mr. Boyd now says of the upheaval: “I don’t regret any aspect of it at all. It was a defining moment for us. We let go of something we were never called to be. We just didn’t know the price we were going to pay for doing it.”

His congregation of about 4,000 is still digesting his message. Mr. Boyd arranged a forum on a recent Wednesday night to allow members to sound off on his new book. The reception was warm, but many of the 56 questions submitted in writing were pointed: Isn’t abortion an evil that Christians should prevent? Are you saying Christians should not join the military? How can Christians possibly have “power under” Osama bin Laden? Didn’t the church play an enormously positive role in the civil rights movement?

One woman asked: “So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn’t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws?”

Mr. Boyd responded: “I don’t think there’s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don’t slap the label ‘Christian’ on it.”



24KT

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2006, 07:30:04 PM »
Bravo Al-Gebra!

Now THAT was well worth reading! That was one courageous church leader.

Bottom line, there is the separation of church & state for a reason.

Religion & Political Power do not mix period.
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Dos Equis

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2006, 08:40:58 PM »
Eeeh.  Part of what he said is okay and part isn't.  I agree with this part:  "the church should steer clear of politics."  Duh.  If they want to keep their tax exempt status they better not be engaging in partisan politics.  Also agree with this:  "stop claiming the United States as a 'Christian nation.'"  I do believe in church-state separation, assuming that was his point. 

But this part is wrong:  "give up moralizing on sexual issues" and "stop glorifying American military campaigns."  You don't compromise the truth.  Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.  Can't ignore that if you're a Christian and definitely can't ignore that if you're a pastor.  And there is nothing wrong with supporting troops, especially if they are in a fight against evil, like we are in Iraq.  We deposed an evil dictator who was a threat to the world.  We have brave men and women fighting the good fight.  Nothing wrong at all with "glorifying" our mission and our troops IMO. 

OzmO

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2006, 08:46:38 PM »
Eeeh.  Part of what he said is okay and part isn't.  I agree with this part:  "the church should steer clear of politics."  Duh.  If they want to keep their tax exempt status they better not be engaging in partisan politics.  Also agree with this:  "stop claiming the United States as a 'Christian nation.'"  I do believe in church-state separation, assuming that was his point. 

But this part is wrong:  "give up moralizing on sexual issues" and "stop glorifying American military campaigns."  You don't compromise the truth.  Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.  Can't ignore that if you're a Christian and definitely can't ignore that if you're a pastor.  And there is nothing wrong with supporting troops, especially if they are in a fight against evil, like we are in Iraq.  We deposed an evil dictator who was a threat to the world.  We have brave men and women fighting the good fight.  Nothing wrong at all with "glorifying" our mission and our troops IMO. 


I'd be willing to bet alot of other things are ignored by pastors in the bible.  But we have all had facets of this discussion already.   ;D

Dos Equis

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2006, 09:00:23 PM »
I'd be willing to bet alot of other things are ignored by pastors in the bible.  But we have all had facets of this discussion already.   ;D

True.   ;D  They shouldn't ignore anything.

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2006, 10:16:43 PM »
And there is nothing wrong with supporting troops, especially if they are in a fight against evil, like we are in Iraq. 

Are the US troops truly fighting "evil" or for American selfish interests in Iraq?
Are the insurgents really "evil" or are they fighting for their selfish interests in Iraq?

Quote
We deposed an evil dictator who was a threat to the world.

 :-\  Mark, I can't believe you're still buying that. The USA deposed a dictator that they created and used, to destroy the military strength, economy and infrastucture of Iran for years. A country the US put on it's list of enemies after the people of Iran rose up and threw out the dictator the CIA placed in power after the CIA successfully interfered with that country by overthrowing the democratically elected leader of Iran. Iran rejected the corruption of the West and the proposed exploitation of it's country, and the despotic dictator the USA placed there, and embraced Islamic ideologies. It's called blowback. After losing the hearts and minds of the Iranians demonstrated quite pointedly by the student radicals who held seize to the US embassy, the USA decided to further meddle in the region by building up a nasty pit bull named Saddam Hussein, and turning him loose to wreak destruction on Iran. Once he had completed his mission, having done the bidding of the USA, leaving both Iran and his own country in tatters, the USA gave him permission to invade Kuwait with the dual purpose of accessing her oil reserves to rebuild a tattered Iraq, and to reclaim what had historically been Iraq's 13th province, ...prior to the region being separated by the British when they got their butts thrown out.

Hmmmm... lemme see, where else in the world have we found this similar pattern before? British colonialists leave a territory, but before they do, they split the area, leaving tension, unaddressed claims to ownership, and regional instability? Did it happen with India & Pakistan? What about Taiwan? Palestine & Israel? ...oh, but I digress... back on topic...

Once Saddam took the bait, and proceeded to reclaim his 13th province, he became a pariah, an "evil" dictator. The USA didn't consider him "evil" when he was fighting for them. Didn't consider him "evil" when they were selling him chemical weapons, and teaching him how to use it on Iranians, and Kurds. The USA didn't consider him "evil" when they gave him the keys to the city of chicago, or even when he actually gassed the Kurds. He only became "evil" when it appeared he might have the ability to control some of the largest oil reserves in the world. That's when the USA announced to the world the need to take him down. But he didn't fall far enough or fast enough for the USA's liking and withstood more punishment than they thought he could. His "weapons of mass destruction" were the Euros he wanted to use as the currency standard for the sale of his oil. I remember General Norman Schwartzkoff laughing when Hussein declared "And so it begins... the mother of all battles." In hindsight it looks like he was kind of right.

This is NOT a war of Good vs. Evil. It is a war for oil, power, and selfish interests on all sides.

Quote
We have brave men and women fighting the good fight.

You have brave men & women fighting for an evil cabal who are more instrumental in the creation of radical extremism all over the globe, ...both overtly & covertly, intentionally & unintentionally, than any mullah has been able to do thus far, ...as well as it's exponential growth all over the world.

In Jamaica there is a saying "Your eyes are bigger than your stomache." It's appropriate here too, in that those who lead your country off to war bit off far more than they were able to chew. The warhawks miscalculated, it's blown up in their faces, and now it is the brave men & women, in uniform as well as civilians in the USA & Iraq who are left paying the price. And make no mistake, you ARE paying the price, as will many generations to come.

Quote
Nothing wrong at all with "glorifying" our mission and our troops IMO.

How does the religious glorification of the mission and the troops not differ from the religious glorification for the mission objectives, and fighters of Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Queda or any of the other groups labeled as terrorists.

Seems to me a different side of the same coin. 

Jesus Christ is reported to have said :
"Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. Render unto God that which belongs to God."

The troops belong to the state, ...Glory belongs to God.

The separation of Church & State is essential, and the glorifying of a mission or troops is idolatry under the tenets of Christianity.

Hope That Clarifies
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Martin1981

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 10:47:14 PM »
Quote
This is NOT a war of Good vs. Evil. It is a war for oil, power, and selfish interests on all sides.

True.  Weapon traffic could be added to that list.

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2006, 12:26:14 AM »
True.  Weapon traffic could be added to that list.

I remember when I was growing up, the richest man in the world was the arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi.

No one had ever even heard of any geeky looking hippie named Bill Gates. But peace & prosperity is far too costly for those who manufacture and invest in weapons. They need a constant demand for their products and are determined to have as many markets as they can... regardless of the price.
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Colossus_500

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2006, 07:12:29 AM »
I thought about posting this article the other day.  We're actually going through "Letters From a Skeptic" in our Sunday school class.  Greg Boyd has some great points, but I also find some things that I disagree strongly with him on.  History backs that our founding fathers argued that we be able to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob freely and without judgement.  We are far from that now.  I especially have questions about the motives he and the three other family members of his church had in moving to a predominately black neighborhood.  Was is it to be a witness to black people specifically, as if they were more sinful than others?  What was his purpose.  I think with some of the things Greg Boyd argues are examples of we all tend to interpret God's word and will as it befits us. 

Colossus_500

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2006, 07:23:48 AM »
Eeeh.  Part of what he said is okay and part isn't.  I agree with this part:  "the church should steer clear of politics."  Duh.  If they want to keep their tax exempt status they better not be engaging in partisan politics.  Also agree with this:  "stop claiming the United States as a 'Christian nation.'"  I do believe in church-state separation, assuming that was his point. 

But this part is wrong:  "give up moralizing on sexual issues" and "stop glorifying American military campaigns."  You don't compromise the truth.  Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.  Can't ignore that if you're a Christian and definitely can't ignore that if you're a pastor.  And there is nothing wrong with supporting troops, especially if they are in a fight against evil, like we are in Iraq.  We deposed an evil dictator who was a threat to the world.  We have brave men and women fighting the good fight.  Nothing wrong at all with "glorifying" our mission and our troops IMO. 


I agree whole-heartedly, Beach.  He says some things in his book that I question too.  Specifically, his argument, as mentioned in the article, that God does not know all that will happen in life.  God can't be omnipotent, or omnipresent were Greg Boyd's point be valid. 

Dos Equis

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2006, 09:45:54 AM »
Are the US troops truly fighting "evil" or for American selfish interests in Iraq?
Are the insurgents really "evil" or are they fighting for their selfish interests in Iraq?

 :-\  Mark, I can't believe you're still buying that. The USA deposed a dictator that they created and used, to destroy the military strength, economy and infrastucture of Iran for years. A country the US put on it's list of enemies after the people of Iran rose up and threw out the dictator the CIA placed in power after the CIA successfully interfered with that country by overthrowing the democratically elected leader of Iran. Iran rejected the corruption of the West and the proposed exploitation of it's country, and the despotic dictator the USA placed there, and embraced Islamic ideologies. It's called blowback. After losing the hearts and minds of the Iranians demonstrated quite pointedly by the student radicals who held seize to the US embassy, the USA decided to further meddle in the region by building up a nasty pit bull named Saddam Hussein, and turning him loose to wreak destruction on Iran. Once he had completed his mission, having done the bidding of the USA, leaving both Iran and his own country in tatters, the USA gave him permission to invade Kuwait with the dual purpose of accessing her oil reserves to rebuild a tattered Iraq, and to reclaim what had historically been Iraq's 13th province, ...prior to the region being separated by the British when they got their butts thrown out.

Hmmmm... lemme see, where else in the world have we found this similar pattern before? British colonialists leave a territory, but before they do, they split the area, leaving tension, unaddressed claims to ownership, and regional instability? Did it happen with India & Pakistan? What about Taiwan? Palestine & Israel? ...oh, but I digress... back on topic...

Once Saddam took the bait, and proceeded to reclaim his 13th province, he became a pariah, an "evil" dictator. The USA didn't consider him "evil" when he was fighting for them. Didn't consider him "evil" when they were selling him chemical weapons, and teaching him how to use it on Iranians, and Kurds. The USA didn't consider him "evil" when they gave him the keys to the city of chicago, or even when he actually gassed the Kurds. He only became "evil" when it appeared he might have the ability to control some of the largest oil reserves in the world. That's when the USA announced to the world the need to take him down. But he didn't fall far enough or fast enough for the USA's liking and withstood more punishment than they thought he could. His "weapons of mass destruction" were the Euros he wanted to use as the currency standard for the sale of his oil. I remember General Norman Schwartzkoff laughing when Hussein declared "And so it begins... the mother of all battles." In hindsight it looks like he was kind of right.

This is NOT a war of Good vs. Evil. It is a war for oil, power, and selfish interests on all sides.

You have brave men & women fighting for an evil cabal who are more instrumental in the creation of radical extremism all over the globe, ...both overtly & covertly, intentionally & unintentionally, than any mullah has been able to do thus far, ...as well as it's exponential growth all over the world.

In Jamaica there is a saying "Your eyes are bigger than your stomache." It's appropriate here too, in that those who lead your country off to war bit off far more than they were able to chew. The warhawks miscalculated, it's blown up in their faces, and now it is the brave men & women, in uniform as well as civilians in the USA & Iraq who are left paying the price. And make no mistake, you ARE paying the price, as will many generations to come.

How does the religious glorification of the mission and the troops not differ from the religious glorification for the mission objectives, and fighters of Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Queda or any of the other groups labeled as terrorists.

Seems to me a different side of the same coin. 

Jesus Christ is reported to have said :
"Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. Render unto God that which belongs to God."

The troops belong to the state, ...Glory belongs to God.

The separation of Church & State is essential, and the glorifying of a mission or troops is idolatry under the tenets of Christianity.

Hope That Clarifies

Yes we played a role in establishing an evil dictator.  Doesn't make him any less evil.  Doesn't mean we should leave him there either.  The guy gassed his own people.  He tortured his own citizens.  He hoarded the wealth of his country and used it for his own selfish desires.  He sponsored terrorism (e.g., giving financial rewards to suicide bombers in Israel).  He invaded a foreign country and was about invade a second before we stopped him.  He bombed civilians in Israel.  Unprovoked.  He was trying to obtain WMDs, if he didn't have them already at some point.  He murdered members of his own family.  We've uncovered mass graves of murdered civilians in Iraq.  We found torture chambers.  That makes him evil in my book.  Where is Austin Powers when you need him?   :)

I certainly don't believe the United States is an "evil cabal."  That might be the most absurd comment I've heard this year.  Even more absurd than Al Gebra's race/sex comment.   :)  We are the greatest country in the history of the world.  No accident that people from all over the world, including Canada and  Jamaica, flock to the U.S. every year.  It is the land of opportunity.  It's God's country, even though we are all sinners. 

Are terrorists evil?  Yes.  Are those who intentionally attack innocent men, women, and children evil?  Yes.  Are those who tape executions of innocent noncombatants evil?  Yes.  Are suicide bombers evil?  Yes. 

There is nothing idolatrous about supporting the military, particularly when our mission is righteous, like the one in Iraq. 


     

Colossus_500

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2006, 10:50:45 AM »
Yes we played a role in establishing an evil dictator.  Doesn't make him any less evil.  Doesn't mean we should leave him there either.  The guy gassed his own people.  He tortured his own citizens.  He hoarded the wealth of his country and used it for his own selfish desires.  He sponsored terrorism (e.g., giving financial rewards to suicide bombers in Israel).  He invaded a foreign country and was about invade a second before we stopped him.  He bombed civilians in Israel.  Unprovoked.  He was trying to obtain WMDs, if he didn't have them already at some point.  He murdered members of his own family.  We've uncovered mass graves of murdered civilians in Iraq.  We found torture chambers.  That makes him evil in my book.  Where is Austin Powers when you need him?   :)

I certainly don't believe the United States is an "evil cabal."  That might be the most absurd comment I've heard this year.  Even more absurd than Al Gebra's race/sex comment.   :)  We are the greatest country in the history of the world.  No accident that people from all over the world, including Canada and  Jamaica, flock to the U.S. every year.  It is the land of opportunity.  It's God's country, even though we are all sinners. 

Are terrorists evil?  Yes.  Are those who intentionally attack innocent men, women, and children evil?  Yes.  Are those who tape executions of innocent noncombatants evil?  Yes.  Are suicide bombers evil?  Yes. 

There is nothing idolatrous about supporting the military, particularly when our mission is righteous, like the one in Iraq. 


     

Take a bow, Beach.  Well said. 

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2006, 12:11:24 PM »
Take a bow, Beach.  Well said. 

Thank you sir.   :)

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2006, 09:50:24 PM »
 ::)



Had your fill yet?
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Dos Equis

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2006, 11:37:58 PM »
 ::)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: christians and political power don't mix?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2006, 03:00:00 AM »
::)



Had your fill yet?
Please Jag... That pic probably should not be anywhere near the internet.  :-\