Author Topic: what's Milos' "special drink"  (Read 24664 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #150 on: October 28, 2006, 12:50:15 AM »
Passage of time Adam?  I was merely stating that there isnt any pictures of the guys from the 50's that look as lean as Kurt did in that pic.....thats all...

There are some out there.......While Sandow may not be as lean he was Very low.  I will find you some examples of some others.



The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #151 on: October 28, 2006, 01:00:05 AM »
Bobby Pandour of the Late 1800s is good as well.





TheGoldenPrince

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #152 on: October 28, 2006, 01:57:09 AM »
Vitargo, whey, Glutamine & Creatine. Maybe BCaas as well too.
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Van_Bilderass

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #153 on: October 28, 2006, 03:57:30 AM »
I'm not saying that I totally disagree with you, but you need to ask yourself some questions. Why is it important to replenish glycogen after a workout and how does this equate to muscle growth. The average male stores about 300 grams of glycogen in the muscles and about 100 or so in the liver. How much of this are you using during a workout?? I have heard so much talk about how important the molecular weight is as far as the type of carbs used when taking insulin, but no one seems to be able to tell us why it is so important?

Protein is the main nutrient that you need to build muscle and using BCAA are IMO a good idea, but I think that too much emphasis is being put on carbs than protein. Once a muscle is damaged you need protein to rebuild. I also understand about insulin shuttling nutrients into the muscle and this is true, but there is also a huge difference in taking something like Celltech after a workout to stimulate you own insulin levels and taking 15 to 30 units of insulin a day so we may be on two different pages here.

BTW, it's not the sugar that is shuttling or acting as a carrier for the nutrients, but the insulin itself that is creating the anabolic environment and therefore giving your body the ability to repair and stimulate growth of the muscle. I have known plenty of guy to use a low carb diet and grow just the same when using insulin. As long as your essential fats are present you will grow. Remember that the carbs are there to cover the effects of low blood sugar from the insulin. I do not think that carbs are as important as people might think other than for the reasons that I have stated.. I would love to here other opinions as I am always open to knew ideas and info.




Some think the cellular swelling, as a result from loading the carbs back in, acts as an anabolic signal.

Regarding insulin: it's NOT anabolic. Shooting insulin or driving it up with a bunch of fast carbs will not improve protein synthesis. It will however be anti catabolic. You only need basal levels of insulin to maximally stimulate protein synthesis.

I'd like to hear Milos' thoughts here.

gtbro1

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #154 on: October 28, 2006, 04:00:23 AM »
A special blend of fresh strawberries, freshly squeezed orange juice, a squeeze of lemon and a crushed up testicle from an austrian mountain goat.

hahaha  maybe they don't want to know what is in it.

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #155 on: October 28, 2006, 06:15:55 AM »
I'm not saying that I totally disagree with you, but you need to ask yourself some questions. Why is it important to replenish glycogen after a workout and how does this equate to muscle growth. The average male stores about 300 grams of glycogen in the muscles and about 100 or so in the liver. How much of this are you using during a workout?? I have heard so much talk about how important the molecular weight is as far as the type of carbs used when taking insulin, but no one seems to be able to tell us why it is so important?

Protein is the main nutrient that you need to build muscle and using BCAA are IMO a good idea, but I think that too much emphasis is being put on carbs than protein. Once a muscle is damaged you need protein to rebuild. I also understand about insulin shuttling nutrients into the muscle and this is true, but there is also a huge difference in taking something like Celltech after a workout to stimulate you own insulin levels and taking 15 to 30 units of insulin a day so we may be on two different pages here.

BTW, it's not the sugar that is shuttling or acting as a carrier for the nutrients, but the insulin itself that is creating the anabolic environment and therefore giving your body the ability to repair and stimulate growth of the muscle. I have known plenty of guy to use a low carb diet and grow just the same when using insulin. As long as your essential fats are present you will grow. Remember that the carbs are there to cover the effects of low blood sugar from the insulin. I do not think that carbs are as important as people might think other than for the reasons that I have stated.. I would love to here other opinions as I am always open to knew ideas and info.





Yes it is carbs or sugar that causes the pancreas to release insulin.  This is one reason why people not using exogenous insulin need carbs post work out. I mean are you saying Milos's drink is marketed at people using insulin?  If thats the case then he will have very few costomers and the drink will fail.  You guys think everybody is jacked on gear, GH, shooting slin and getting ready for their next show.  That market is very small, please come down to the real world.

Im sure Milos wants to make a great product, he's a proud guy and Im sure as far as supps go it will be a good one.  I just dont feel they are worth it compared to food.  Yes they are great if you cant get any real food, cause they can be put in your pocket or something and in a pinch get you through till you can get at some food.

Disgusted

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2006, 09:26:51 AM »
Some think the cellular swelling, as a result from loading the carbs back in, acts as an anabolic signal.

Regarding insulin: it's NOT anabolic. Shooting insulin or driving it up with a bunch of fast carbs will not improve protein synthesis. It will however be anti catabolic. You only need basal levels of insulin to maximally stimulate protein synthesis.

I'd like to hear Milos' thoughts here.

Of course insulin is anabolic. All anabolic means is growth promoting. I never said that insulin increases protein synthesis, but there is clearly more gong on than just anti catabolic activity. People have gained upwards of 40 pounds using insulin, although I am not saying it is all muscle.

Disgusted

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2006, 09:28:14 AM »
Yes it is carbs or sugar that causes the pancreas to release insulin.  This is one reason why people not using exogenous insulin need carbs post work out. I mean are you saying Milos's drink is marketed at people using insulin?  If thats the case then he will have very few costomers and the drink will fail.  You guys think everybody is jacked on gear, GH, shooting slin and getting ready for their next show.  That market is very small, please come down to the real world.

Im sure Milos wants to make a great product, he's a proud guy and Im sure as far as supps go it will be a good one.  I just dont feel they are worth it compared to food.  Yes they are great if you cant get any real food, cause they can be put in your pocket or something and in a pinch get you through till you can get at some food.

The only way to find out who is product is marketed to is to ask him.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2006, 09:41:32 AM »
Of course insulin is anabolic. All anabolic means is growth promoting. I never said that insulin increases protein synthesis, but there is clearly more gong on than just anti catabolic activity. People have gained upwards of 40 pounds using insulin, although I am not saying it is all muscle.
The second paragraph wasn't aimed at you, just a general point from my readings. They have actually tested this in studies, it's not until you reach thousands of times of physiological concetrations that it stimulates protein synthesis, and then it's due to the insulin activating igf-1 receptors. However if you stop protein degradation after workouts for example, the net effect can be more muscle so it's just a point of semantics. What I think is weird is why some report such dramatic gains from it when a 100gram dextrose shake causes higher insulin levels than a 10iu insulin injection. The reports of huge gains are a mystery to me because I've seen maybe a dozen guys use it without any gains that I could tell. Maybe a feeling fullness but that's about it. Maybe it has to be used with high dosage GH or something.

Disgusted

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2006, 09:42:05 AM »
I agree with Disgusted whereas, I continue to make significant gains while relying on primarily a low carb/moderate fats diet. I value his input on the difference between natural and supplemental insulin. My question is...... How important is vitargo (or any other high GI carb) for achieving the optimal anabolic state in which so many are swearing by? For somebody looking to make optimal offseason gains, should they consider this "insulin spike"? or possibly using insulin everyday?

OK, I would NEVER!!!! recommend anyone to take insulin, so just because I talk about people doing it doesn't mean that I recommend it. Just had to get that out of the way. :)

When you mention insulin spike I am assuming that you are meaning stimulating your own levels. This is a huge difference than when taking it exogenously. Think of it this way. Some guys will take things like tribulus to stimulate test production and while it does work it will never be the same as taking 500mg of test a week. So drinking a carb drink no matter what kind of drink it is, you are not imo getting that much benefit from it. In fact, to compare the two analogies you are probable getting less benefit from spiking insulin due to the fat stimulating properties that insulin causes. I do think however that ectomorphs can benefit from this better than most.

I have known some guy to take Celltech and gain what looks to be a decent amount of muscle, but the gains do not keep coming after the first few times you initially use it.

Disgusted

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #160 on: October 28, 2006, 09:45:28 AM »
The second paragraph wasn't aimed at you, just a general point from my readings. They have actually tested this in studies, it's not until you reach thousands of times of physiological concetrations that it stimulates protein synthesis, and then it's due to the insulin activating igf-1 receptors. However if you stop protein degradation after workouts for example, the net effect can be more muscle so it's just a point of semantics. What I think is weird is why some report such dramatic gains from it when a 100gram dextrose shake causes higher insulin levels than a 10iu insulin injection. The reports of huge gains are a mystery to me because I've seen maybe a dozen guys use it without any gains that I could tell. Maybe a feeling fullness but that's about it. Maybe it has to be used with high dosage GH or something.


I agree. I will be the first one to say that I do not know exactly what is going on in the body when taking insulin as far as the muscle and or weight gain. Most guys are using high doses of GH with their insulin. I actually believe this to be beneficial, but for short periods of time only.

The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #161 on: October 28, 2006, 09:51:37 AM »
I`ve been saying Post-workout drinks are nonsense for a Very long time.

A bodybuilder does not do anything strenuous enough to even warrant one. 

SWOLETRAIN

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #162 on: October 28, 2006, 10:29:27 AM »
TA what do you do post workout?
-

The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #163 on: October 28, 2006, 10:52:38 AM »
TA what do you do post workout?

Nothing.


Just eat whenever I want.

alexxx

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2006, 12:35:58 PM »
TA what do you do post workout?

He commands gravity into submission.
just push some weight!

leland000

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #165 on: October 28, 2006, 01:26:01 PM »
On every board you see countless posts of people detailing precise %'s of malto, dextrose, wm, bcaas, glutamine, creatine, taurine, leucine etc that they take post workout. They seem to feel if they dont race home from the gym and instantly consume this magic concotion they will wilt away.

Novel Idea: Worry more about your entire diet and focus just as much on the other 5 or 6 quality meals you should be eating throughout the day

Question for Milos, TooPowerful4U, GetItOnNY:
What do the three of you think happens to the nutrients most trainees consume in their pre workout meal 1hr or so before training? They don't magically disappear, these nutrients will be readily available to aid in the post workout recovery process.

I've trained for many years and just like every1 else I've wasted money on useless supps and bought into the hype. I can say for a fact that there is very little difference if any between some elaborate over priced post workout formula, or mixing some cheap whey into a big glass of grape juice + eating some white potatos and chicken.

Use common sense..........the main purpose of these products are to make money they very well may be more effective than mixing some cheap whey into a big glass of grape juice + eating some white potatos and chicken postworkout.........but they won't produce a dramatic noticeable difference in your physique like some people seem to believe. The most noticeable effect will be less cash in your wallet.

jmt1

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2006, 06:25:25 PM »
there is plenty of solid research supporting dextrose/malto/etc. pwo



Q: What are the properties of glycogen? And why are these properties so vital post workout?

A: Glycogen is a polysaccharide, (C6H10O5)n that is the main form of carbohydrate storage in animals and humans and occurs primarily in the liver and muscle tissue. It is readily converted to glucose as needed by the body to satisfy its energy needs (21), such as during intense training.

To enhance the progress of muscular strength and size with heavy-resistance body building programs, optimal conditions for recovery from training sessions are imperative, primarily glycogen re-synthesis (22).

Recovery occupies the coordinated operation of multiple physiological processes that are heavily influenced by the accessibility and actions of exclusive hormones and nutrients (16, 17).

Both qualitative and quantitative modifications in skeletal muscle contractile proteins are all supported and signaled by a horde of systematic -trophic influences from hormones to nutrient availability (18, 19).

Markedly, concentric and eccentric contractions disrupt or damage certain muscle fibers that must undertake a remodeling restoration process. Dietary nutrients, hormones, and growth factors interact to regulate this remodeling of skeletal muscle proteins (5).

One primal factor associated with muscular fatigue is depletion of muscle glycogen (1).

These stores must be replaced rapidly during the post-workout initial recovery phase in order for performance to be reproducible in a subsequent exercise bout(s).

Glycogen synthesis may be restricted by blood glucose concentration, glucose transport, and the activity of the enzymes involved in the pathway, particularly glycogen synthase (10).

Body building training programs provide conditions within skeletal muscle to support the rapid synthesis of glycogen.

Glycogen synthase action is inversely relative to glycogen intensity (23); as a result of the glycogen-depleted state post-training, skeletal muscle (24) and hepatic glycogen synthase activity are raised (13).

Basal glucose transport within skeletal muscle occurs via GLUT-4 (A powerhouse effect of insulin is the stimulation of glucose transport via the translocation of the insulin responsive glucose transporter, GLUT4, to the plasma membrane) (14).

Nevertheless, the ability of skeletal muscle to take up glucose is relative, due to adjustments in the GLUT-4 content of the sarcolemal membrane.

Image 1. Atrophic muscle fibers. The sarcolemal membranes of these two atrophic fibers have a wavy appearance. Courtesy: Department of Pathology; Virginia Commonwealth University;

There are hypothesized to be one or more intracellular pools of GLUT-4 proteins, which are translocated to the sarcolema in response to both increased insulin concentration (20) and prior exercise (9); these effects are additive (6).









In the post-workout period, therefore, muscle membrane permeability to glucose is high, thus favoring the accretion of glycogen replacement. However, if rapid carbohydrate distribution is not provided during recovery, glycogen synthesis will be limited because the rate of endogenous glucose production from gluconeogenic precursors such as alanine and glycerol is inadequate to support maximal rates of glycogen synthesis (15).

The ingestion of high GI carbohydrates increases glycogen synthesis in two ways.

The first (12) is increased substrate availability through the increased blood glucose concentration, which results in an increased glucose uptake due to mass action.

Moreover, the resultant increase in systemic insulin concentration stimulates the translocation of GLUT-4 transporters from an intracellular pool to the sarcolemal membrane (7).

The hormone insulin is also a powerful activator of glycogen synthase and inhibitor of glycogen phosphorylase (2).

The effectiveness of a specific carbohydrate in encouraging resynthesis of the carbohydrate stores is reliant on the insulin and glucose response to the carbohydrate load (4).

This is directly linked to gastric emptying and intestinal absorption rates. It is also associated with the insulinogenic potential of the carbohydrate, as indicated by the glycemic index (GI) of a carbohydrate.

The development of glycogen synthesis relies upon the accessibility of glycogenic substrate (8) and the activity of the enzymes implicated in glycogen synthesis. These include hexokinase and glycogen synthase.

Prior exercise enhances skeletal muscle glucose transport (3) because of the translocation of GLUT-4 transporters from an intracellular pool to the sarcolemal membrane.
The inclination for skeletal muscle to extort blood glucose will thus be increased, and the glucose will tend to be directed toward glycogen synthesis because glycogen synthase is activated during recovery due to the low intramuscular glycogen concentration (23).
These conditions favoring the resynthesis of glycogen can be exploited (8) by the provision of a quality carbohydrate source.
The consequential amplification in glucose availability and the insulin response to the glucose load would tend to stimulate (7) a further increase in the GLUT-4 content of the sarcolemal membrane.
Research has demonstrated (11) that there is a direct correlation between the rate of glycogen storage during recovery and total muscle GLUT-4 protein content.
On a side note, observational and empirical evidence makes it plainly obvious that the endocrinal state of the body builder post-workout is nothing like that of a sedentary individual.
A red herring argument is an attempt to offer evidence to support one proposition by arguing for a different one entirely, or dodging the main argument by going off on a tangent.
Oftentimes opponents of high GI carbohydrate supplementation post-workout will point to the dangers of excess insulin-spiking and glucose intake; however, this is a red herring argument. This claim is like comparing apples to oranges.

Krankenstein

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2006, 06:33:11 PM »
I do have to say this......when I did the "norm" post workout drink (i.e. a boatload of carbs).....all I got was smoooooootthhhhhh.  When I stopped that and concentrated on a p/c pre-workout type of meal....and just took in some protein with small fat in the pwo meal....I felt better and never got chunky.  The whole "need to spike insulin" thing always baffled me as the only real 'killer' workouts being done are legs.  How many feel absolutely like shit after say a chest and bicep workout the same way they do after a leg day?

Disgusted

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2006, 06:45:36 PM »
I do have to say this......when I did the "norm" post workout drink (i.e. a boatload of carbs).....all I got was smoooooootthhhhhh.  When I stopped that and concentrated on a p/c pre-workout type of meal....and just took in some protein with small fat in the pwo meal....I felt better and never got chunky.  The whole "need to spike insulin" thing always baffled me as the only real 'killer' workouts being done are legs.  How many feel absolutely like shit after say a chest and bicep workout the same way they do after a leg day?

Bingo bro. Protein combined with fat will build muscle NOT carbs.

The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2006, 07:09:52 PM »
Bingo bro. Protein combined with fat will build muscle NOT carbs.

It takes VERY little protein to build and sustain muscle as well.

jmt1

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #170 on: October 28, 2006, 07:15:58 PM »
some people will continue to ignore what works and what doesnt...lol...dont let science get in the way.

take in some fat and protein in a pre workout meal forget pwo carbs...good luck.

The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #171 on: October 28, 2006, 07:17:19 PM »
some people will continue to ignore what works and what doesnt...lol...dont let science get in the way.

take in some fat and protein in a pre workout meal forget pwo carbs...good luck.

The Majority of your workout is fueled by fat.  Carbs second and Protein about 5 percent if that.


The True Adonis

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #172 on: October 28, 2006, 07:19:31 PM »
About 60 percent of a weightlifting session is fueled by fats, 35 percent by carbohydrates, and 5 percent by protein, according to Essentials of Exercise Physiology.

Miss Karen

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #173 on: October 28, 2006, 07:22:30 PM »
Jmt1 you know your stuff,nice post.But like I said, for milos to promote any natural product prove he is natural 1st.Then lets discuss,Milos formula.

TheEgoCrusher

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Re: what's Milos' "special drink"
« Reply #174 on: November 02, 2006, 11:55:54 PM »
TA, you are so MASSIVE, to RIPPED, to DEFINED, that I have no choice but to agree with you...LMAO!!!!