The IFBB deviation method of testing judges is NOT a good method.

[Vince B]

I finally read the IFBB deviation method to determine how to assess judges. It can be found at http://www.ifbb.com.

They define a perfect judge as a person who does not make any errors in judging. What is the test of accuracy? They compare individual scores against the combined results from all the judges. I have to say this is totally invalid. The whole idea of using more than one judge is to get different opinions. Built into the judging is an attempt to eliminate bias and so the top two scores and bottom two scores for each competitor are not counted. I am not sure this is required if the judges are properly selected in the first place. Or use enough judges so that individual scores don't make that much difference.

What is the test to determine if the combined judges scores are accurate? There is no test. Every year we hear the booing at contests and I suppose this is evidence that many do not agree with the judges.

If you have clear and distinctive criteria for judging physiques then it should be possible to assess who is the best bodybuilder in a lineup. Since bodybuilders are compared with others there is no way an assessment can be made when looking at individuals by themselves. What are they being compared against?

The IFBB got a mathematician to examine the judging method. How is a mathematician going to assess validity? All he can do is assess consistency. That is all that the deviation method can determine. The system then reinforces the judges to agree with each other. If deviation is considered an error then who will want to be considered a poor judge because they disagreed with the majority? It is always possible that a single judge selected the best person and the rest of the judging panel were wrong.

It is possible to come up with an objective method to test contest placings. Photos and videos of competitors can be taken and then compared. All the images can be made the same size and therefore it will be possible to compare men of different heights. If honest, independent, critical, highly experienced individuals are given the task of making an objective determination of contest results they could take their time and present their findings to the organization. That is the only way you can find out how the judges performed and even here there is room for debate about validity. It is always possible that assessors of judges can be mistaken.

I really cannot believe how foolish the IFBB is to use such invalid methods. By doing so they are merely going to get yes-men on judging panels because anyone who thinks differently will be considered in error and therefore a bad judge.

The more I learn about the IFBB the less impressed I am. Oh, I was delighted to learn that the IFBB in article 8 consider doping unethical and feel offenders should be fined and suspended. Ah, what hypocrisy. What a shame. What a sham.

[Chick]

What methoeds do other federations use, Vince?

Please give us the sophisticated system in place by others, to see whether or not a judge is qualified to render an opinion...

[jaejonna]

What methoeds do other federations use, Vince?

Please give us the sophisticated system in place by others, to see whether or not a judge is qualified to render an opinion...

You forgot to add ... "Stick to telling your cute little stories Vince.."

[mrsirjojo]

I finally read the IFBB deviation method to determine how to assess judges. It can be found at http://www.ifbb.com.


I really cannot believe how foolish the IFBB is to use such invalid methods. By doing so they are merely going to get yes-men on judging panels because anyone who thinks differently will be considered in error and therefore a bad judge.

The larger question becomes, how are IFBB judges selected? Who selects them? Like supreme court justices, surely whoever picks them knows their slant ahead of time? And finally, how should they be selected? How can judges be picked fairly when the look of the perfect physique is not agreed upon?

[Vince B]

I believe bodybuilders deserve to be judged by their peers. If enough peers cannot be found then at least the competitors should approve of the judges!

At the Olympia that means only Olympia winners should judge or competitors who placed high in past contests. I am sure most competitors would feel comfortable with a judging panel like that.

The issue of validity will not go away. Anyone who cannot see that the deviation method is not a guarantee of good judging is just not being realistic. Panels may or may not judge correctly. That they are consistent is no guarantee that they are correct. If I have to point this out then no wonder this sport is so controversial.

It makes a huge difference who picks the judges and on what criterion. It seems to me getting judges that agree with other judges is never going to do justice to this sport. We have to have a system that is capable of doing the right thing and not just appearing to do the right thing. The deviation method is a sham.

[Disgusted]

What methoeds do other federations use, Vince?

Please give us the sophisticated system in place by others, to see whether or not a judge is qualified to render an opinion...

Has nothing to do with other federations. Pointing out flaws in other federations will not make the IFBB judging system any better.

[mrsirjojo]

I believe bodybuilders deserve to be judged by their peers. If enough peers cannot be found then at least the competitors should approve of the judges!

At the Olympia that means only Olympia winners should judge or competitors who placed high in past contests. I am sure most competitors would feel comfortable with a judging panel like that.

The issue of validity will not go away. Anyone who cannot see that the deviation method is not a guarantee of good judging is just not being realistic. Panels may or may not judge correctly. That they are consistent is no guarantee that they are correct. If I have to point this out then no wonder this sport is so controversial.

It makes a huge difference who picks the judges and on what criterion. It seems to me getting judges that agree with other judges is never going to do justice to this sport. We have to have a system that is capable of doing the right thing and not just appearing to do the right thing. The deviation method is a sham.

Vince, I watch this really tacky show, America's Next Top Model, with my girlfirend. Tyra banks, the ex-supermodel, who owns the show, assembles 13 girls, makes them live together, and then she and her crony judges decide each week who did the worst in their posing sessions, and send one girl home. Who is sent home seems so random and bears so little resemblance to what we see as viewers, it's clear to me that the producers decide amongst themselves who to keep on to maximize viewership.

I think judging in the IFBB is like that. It's not the winners that dictate the trends for the magazines and the public, I think the IFBB dictates who the winners should be based on their bean counters, who tell them which bodies will sell more mags and supplements. Not sying the judges are told who to pick, but the judges are selected based on who they will pick. This also exemplifies why the big guys full of synthol are not marked down more. Sure, some finish 15th as a punishment...but as we see with Landis...you want to punish someone and stop certain behavior, you can stop it cold when you really want to by banning them for a few years and getting them fired by their sponsors.

If the PDI is a success with its smaller guys, it will be interesting to see if the IFBB uses new judges to let the more aesthetic guys win, or if the same judges suddenly decide they like the Dexter's better.

[Vince B]

Judging bodies with a criterion to select the best muscular physique is not an easy task if the competitors are close in appearance. Even though bodybuilders would probably accept a panel of judges who were peers that is no guarantee they will be good judges. The one thing that we required for our judges was that they be independent. They had to be able to discriminate among the contestants by applying the criterion. Suppose one competitor has small arms relative to the rest of his body and another has small calves. Which competitor is better? Questions like that are very difficult to determine.

I believe that definition has become way too important in contests for both sexes. People say that so and so wasn't dialed in or missed the look, etc. Definition is just one factor out of many in the criterion. We made up rules for judging and included a list of the criterion. The overall look was most important and this included aesthetics and the absence of flaws and things that distract from the physique. Of the individual factors we put size at the top then proportions, shape, definition, symmetry. Symmetry should be about having one part of the body a mirror image of the other. For some curious reason it became associated with beauty and that is not what symmetry is. Judges need to be educated and trained. It takes intelligence to judge effectively.

The IFBB has institutionalized the opposite characteristic that should be demanded for judges. Independence. There should be no need for judges to agree and certainly that is no guarantee you will determine who the best and worst judges are. If we found judges showing favouritism they were never asked to judge again.

If you look at the movie 'Pumping Iron II, The Women' you will see how Ben directs the judging process and actually told judges not to vote for Bev Francis. Any judge who did was making an error. They had poor Oscar State as the patsy there to get the blame for things that went wrong. That movie was never released to the public but copies turned up in video stores. I think some editing was done in later versions because some funny lines were not there. Especially comments from Weinberger. They were priceless.

I think organizations have to train their judges but it can be done in a way to instruct the judges how to select who the IFBB wants to win. It would be an easy matter to prevent certain people from winning contests. In the former AAU contests no black guy won until almost 1970. I suppose they simply picked people who would make sure no black guy won that contest. So no matter how official an organization is there is always someone who makes decisions. Who selects the judges for the IFBB contests and on what criterion? The selection of judges is the single most important part of any bodybuilding contest.

[HRDCOR]

First and foremost Bodybuilding Competition is decided purely by one,s self opinion of another, thats it ,thats the criteria in a nut shell, no crossing the line first or jumping the highest or scoring the most baskets , it is done purely by "like" and one should be fully aweare of that when entering this sport !!!

But one question i have always pondered is how just do some of the individuals you see on the judging panel ever get there in the first place , i mean so many times i have witnessed individuals in a judge line up look as they have never ever stepped foot into a gym in there life, they defiantly have never graced a stage before , or even got down to a low body fat percentage !!!

I think at least a minim requirement for a judge would be some competitive experience , it would help allot I feel !!

[Vince B]

There is no requirement that judges be former competitors. The same goes for gym owners or coaches in sports. It may help judges to be better if they have personal experience in the activity they are judging but it is not necessary. Competitors in bodybuilding should be able to feel comfortable with the judging panel and this means the panel should consist of experienced, respected people in the field. In the old days they selected past winners and gym owners. The idea was twofold. Get the other gyms to attend contests by making sure the gym owner is there. That also gave some balance to the judging process because you didn't want the judges all from the one or two gyms.

I would bet that some judges are picked because whoever is picking them can predict who they will vote for. That is what has to be guarded against.

If you take this discussion forum as a indication of independence of thought then you can clearly see who the people are who speak their minds and have their own opinions. Others are mere parrots. We need strong opinions and not rubber stamps to judge bodybuilding. If the system appears to be inadequate then something has to be done to guarantee that the judging will be independent. If you follow a system of convergence then lackies are the only ones who will end up judging contests. Doesn't that sound a bit like what is happening in the IFBB? My apologies to any fair dinkum judges out there.

[Vince B]

The IFBB requires judges to place the first 15 competitors. Heck if they did the job properly that would take all day. The first 5 should be sufficient but I guess if prize money is given to people up to 10th place then the judges have to separate a lot of competitors. There is no way that process can be done in a couple of hours.