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Author Topic: Oklahoma City - will blow your mind...  (Read 4520 times)
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« on: August 11, 2006, 05:48:01 PM »

There are many problems with the official story of the bombing. Let's start with McVeigh's whereabouts on April 17.

McVeigh had been filmed by a security camera at a nearby McDonald's 24 minutes before the time stamped on the truck rental agreement, wearing clothes that did not match either of the men seen at Elliott's.
There is no plausible explanation of how he traveled the mile and a quarter from McDonald's to the rental agency, carless and alone as he claims, without getting soaked in the rain.
 

The three people interviewed agreed John Does 1 and 2 were dry. According to Stephen Jones, who has seen the interview transcripts, it took 44 days for the FBI to convince the car rental agency owner that John Doe 1 was Timothy McVeigh. And in the end they did not dare put him on the witness stand, for fear of what might happen under cross-examination.
There is also an unanswered question with regard to the truck, namely what was the Army doing with a Ryder Truck just before the Murrah blast?


From CNN Transcripts:
"...here's now what we are starting to learn about the succession, or what someone obviously hoped would be a succession of explosions. The first bomb that was in the federal building did go off ... the second explosive was found and defused. The third explosive that was found and they are working on it right now ... both the second and third explosives, if you can imagine this, were larger than the first. ... It is just incredible to think that there was that much heavy artillery that was somehow moved into the downtown Oklahoma City federal building."
"...this is the work of a sophisticated group, this is a very sophisticated device, and it has to have been done by an explosives expert."

There's more.  There are recordings and seismic data which show multiple "booms" when the official report just said one.  There are plenty of video clips on google where you can see MSNBC, CNN, and FOX announcing bombs #2 and #3 were found and removed.
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2006, 05:50:08 PM »

Here are the official FEMA and other reports listing additional explosive devices found.  Obviously, to plant 2+ bombs inside a federal building, McVeigh would have needed quite a team. 

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/bombs.html
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2006, 05:54:53 PM »

Two bombs were used:

A seismograph at Still Water (50 miles away) measured two tremors. Bomb experts say there is no way to direct a car bomb to utterly destroy a federal building and leave the YMCA across the street unaffected (window washers weren't even knocked off their scaffolding).

Retired Brigadier General Partin had much experience with explosives and visited OKC. He found evidence of some supporting columns under the Murrah Building were pulverized while some closer to the street (and "car bomb") were intact. He pleaded with the senate for them to prevent the building's demolition, with diagrams of his findings. He said it was a much bigger operation than a car bomb.

Retired FBI veteran Ted Gunderson of Santa Monica had explosives experience. He dismissed as a cover-up the U.S. Justice Dept. claim that a simple car bomb could do the damage. He was quoted in The Spotlight, 5/15/95 as saying, "A very high tech and top secret barometric bomb was the cause ... could not have been built ... without the knowledge of research classified at the very highest level of top secret by the U.S. government."

Ben Williams of American Christian Ministry said "No DEA people were in their offices at the time [of the explosion]. The `Cult Awareness' people were not in their offices at the time. A distance away, the FBI offices were also empty." A mother who lost two boys in the day-care center asked on CNN "why?" and was later told by phone to be quiet about it.
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2006, 05:59:09 PM »

If the bombing of the Alfred E. Murrah building in Oklahoma City was a terrorist reprisal for the massacre of the Branch Davidians at Waco, why were no BATF or FBI agents injured? Why was EVERY BADGE-CARRYING FEDERAL AGENT absent from work at nine o’clock on a weekday morning, their offices staffed only with civilian clerical workers?

When the word first got out that no Federal agents had been present in the building, the BATF produced its Resident Agent Alex McCauley who told a long story about his own heroism and that of a fellow ATF man who allegedly fell three floors in an elevator, walked away from it, and then helped rescue others trapped by the bomb. This was quickly exposed as a fabrication in an angry interview by building maintenance supervisor Duane James, who described McCauley’s story as "pure fantasy". James examined the elevator in question and also the central control panel and pointed out a number of technical and logical reasons why the miraculous elevator incident simply couldn’t have happened in the way claimed. The McCauley account was quietly retracted and flushed down the memory hole by the ATF, with the help of the media. They now admit that McCauley was nowhere near the building when the bomb went off, although they refuse to discuss his exact whereabouts or the whereabouts of any other ATF agent at the time of the explosion.

Will BATF Agent Alex McCauley be disciplined for telling a self-serving lie which falsely made himself out to be a hero? If that was not the purpose, why did he make this palpably false public statement?

Why was U.S. Judge Wayne Alley, whose office was located in the Federal building, warned several weeks in advance in a Justice Department memo to be prepared for an unnamed "terrorist act" directed against the Federal building?

Judge Alley made the above admission to the Portland Oregonian immediately after the bombing. He has since refused to repeat it or allow himself to be interviewed again. Why?

"Norma," a witness who worked in an office building just down the street from the Federal building, told reporter Sherry Koonce what she saw prior to the explosion: "The day was fine, everything was normal when I arrived for work at about 7:45 a.m. There was some talk about the bomb squad among the employees at our office. We wondered what it was doing in our parking lot. Around nine I heard and felt a huge explosion. Then someone said it had to be a bomb, and we all knew. I remembered the bomb squad in our parking lot and knew what had happened." "Norma" has since quit her job, gone into hiding and refused to speak again to any reporters or investigators. So have a number of other people who saw the heavily armed and equipped bomb squad in the area up to three hours before the blast. Why?

Why did all above mentioned facts disappear from the news media after the first week of coverage of the bombing? Why has the media consistently suppressed and refused to report any information or evidence which indicates that, at the very least and regardless of who was responsible, there was Federal foreknowledge that the bombing would take place?

Why did the Director of the University of Oklahoma’s Geological Survey, Dr. Charles Mankin, tell the media that according to two different seismographic records there were TWO blasts, the second approximately eight seconds after the first?

The news media initially reported that there were two explosions, based on eyewitness testimony. Why did this version of events disappear from print and the air waves within twenty-four hours?

According to the prosecution, McVeigh used an ANFO (Ammonium Nitrate and Fuel Oil) bomb to destroy the Alfred P. Murrah federal building. McGyver makes it look real easy on TV. But according to Department of the Army and Air Force Technical Manual No. 9-1910, entitled Military Explosives, ANFO requires a greater than 99% purity of ammonium nitrate, as well as a specific dryness, before it can be mixed with diesel fuel to create an explosive substance. The manual further spells out that even under ideal conditions (not often reached even by experts) 4,800 pounds of ANFO explosive would create a much smaller crater than the one left in front of the Murrah building, and its shock wave could not possibly wield the force necessary to compromise the building’s concrete support structure. The FBI claims that the ANFO charge was made from 50 bags of fertilizer. Ammonium nitrate fertilizers comes in much weaker concentrations than the 99%-plus required for explosives. Creating concentrated amounts of ammonium nitrate is quite complex, and would require many bags of fertilizer. In short, according to the government’s own textbook, the Oklahoma City bombing COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE WAY THE FBI SAYS IT HAPPENED. IT IS A PHYSICAL, CHEMICAL, AND THERMODYNAMIC IMPOSSIBILITY. Why is the FBI lying?

Retired Air Force Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, former commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory, a 25-year expert in the design and development of bombs, urged Senators and Congressmen to delay the destruction of the Murrah building site. Partin stated in a news release, "When I first saw the picture of the truck bomb’s asymmetrical damage to the Federal building in Oklahoma, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementary demolition charges at some of the reinforced concrete bases inside the building, a standard demolition technique." Partin further explained that "reinforced concrete targets in large buildings are hard targets to blast. I know of no way possible to reproduce the apparent building damage through simply a truck bomb effort."

General Partin’s request to have the bomb site preserved in order to examine the possibility of a second explosion was ignored by the government. Why?
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2006, 06:05:47 PM »

Here are more photos of the Ryder truck.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/TRUCK/truck.html

Taken by a pilot in early April.  Bombing was April 17.

Pics authenticated by National Guard in Washington Post.

Now, do you think it's kind of a coincidence that a Ryder truck would be used nearby in a terror attack, a week later?   Um, what the hell is that truck doing there?  How many Ryder trucks do you see on Army bases?  Don't they have their own trucks for transporting things? 
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2006, 06:09:30 PM »

Are you convinced yet that you were attacked by your own govt,then it was covered up?
lol...

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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2006, 07:19:35 PM »

hahahahahahahahaha

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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2006, 08:19:07 PM »

That Ryder truck sitting on an army base up the road from the federal building, a week before the attacks...

is that what you'd call a smoking gun?
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2006, 08:29:07 PM »

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/bombs.html

Many FEMA documents detailing 2 bomb blasts.  Incredible they could just ignore this at trial and put it all on mcveigh.
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2006, 08:31:49 PM »

That's so funny, I remember being glued to the tv that day and I remember well the other bombs found.  I guess I wasn't even aware when that story had changed Undecided
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2006, 09:16:56 PM »

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/bombs.html

Many FEMA documents detailing 2 bomb blasts.  Incredible they could just ignore this at trial and put it all on mcveigh.

if you had to live or die by one piece of "evidence" presented in this thread, which one would it be?
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2006, 09:19:33 PM »

if you had to live or die by one piece of evidence in this thread, which one would it be?

well, i wouldn't live or die by any evidence, but i feel the following are strongest-

either-
the FEMA documents detailing 2 bomb blasts, completely impossible by official theory,
or
the pic of the ryder truck which was authenticated by the national guard.
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2006, 09:20:26 PM »

Of course, this one cracks me up...

EVERY BADGE-CARRYING FEDERAL AGENT absent from work at nine o’clock on a weekday morning,
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2006, 09:28:27 PM »

well, i wouldn't live or die by any evidence, but i feel the following are strongest-

either-
the FEMA documents detailing 2 bomb blasts, completely impossible by official theory,
or

1. the FEMA report that i see on a website w an agenda says that there were two other bombs in the bldg. Some seismologist recorded two tremors . . . two tremors could have been caused by the blast and then by the collapse of part of the bldg . . .

2. what is the "official theory" . . . is there the equivalent of the 9/11 commission report?



Quote
the pic of the ryder truck which was authenticated by the national guard.

1. Yeah . . . this one's not worth a damn to me . . . so there was a ryder truck in there.
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2006, 09:38:09 PM »

Alright, probabilities and tremors don't faze you.

here is the DOD report about the 2 bombs found in the building.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/dod.jpg

"Second bomb disarmed, third bomb evacuated"

These bombs were never put into evidence or brought into trial.  Scrubbed from record later.
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2006, 09:45:20 PM »


2. what is the "official theory" . . . is there the equivalent of the 9/11 commission report?

 

iirc, it was a federal case . . . certain evidence might not have been admissible for various reasons.

the defense indicated that there could have been several co-conspirators, the prosecution went after those it could go after. 

so what's the problem here?
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2006, 09:47:55 PM »

so what's the problem here?

Does it make sense to you that the ATF evacuated their people that morning, that no ATF children died in the daycare center, than anyone with a badge left the building that morning, leaving only civilians to die?
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2006, 09:50:14 PM »

the ATF evacuated their people that morning?

evacuated is a strong word, and one that you use to inflect your statement in a particular way . . . if I assume that you have the facts right, why could this not be a coincidence?
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2006, 09:52:25 PM »


1. Yeah . . . this one's not worth a damn to me . . . so there was a ryder truck in there.

I think you need to examine all of the facts together.  If all you ever did was dismiss each individual piece of evidence because the one piece isn't a smoking gun by itself, a lot more crimes would go unsolved.
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2006, 09:54:58 PM »

evacuated is a strong word, and one that you use to inflect your statement in a particular way . . . if I assume that you have the facts right, why could this not be a coincidence?

I can't tell if you seriously buy the official govt line, or if you're just arguing for argument's sake.


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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2006, 09:57:31 PM »

I think you need to examine all of the facts together.  If all you ever did was dismiss each individual piece of evidence because the one piece isn't a smoking gun by itself, a lot more crimes would go unsolved.

Right.  The Ryder truck, the videos that disappeared, the 2 blasts and 2 other bombs found, the fact that everyone with a badge stayed home that day, and all the other documents at that link above...

These form a case.  Of course, ANYTHING can be *just a coincidence*.  I suppose every camera could have malfunctioned, and 100+ federal employees all got the flu that day.  But it seems like you don't want to put the pieces together, cause what you'll find is what...?

You'll find Americans were murdered and the investigation was a sham.  And that is fucing scary.  It's easier to just smile and chalk it up to coincidence.
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2006, 09:58:24 PM »

I can't tell if you seriously buy the official govt line, or if you're just arguing for argument's sake.




well, since I don't know what the "official govt. line" is I can only point out that some of your claims have gaps wide enough to drive a Mack truck (let alone a Ryder truck) through them. . . . I'm going to check the June 17th Washington post now.
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2006, 10:08:16 PM »

Paper: Washington Post
Title: MANY MILITIA GROUPS SCALE BACK, DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM MCVEIGH
Date: June 14, 1997

Though he hoped to spark an armed revolution, Timothy J. McVeigh ended up weakening the anti-government militia movement,  whose visible membership has declined since the Oklahoma City bomber's capture and trial, experts who monitor extremism said yesterday. Militia members expressed a cool indifference  about McVeigh's fate, saying he stigmatized their cause and is no martyr.
 "As far as McVeigh's concerned, we couldn't care less. We don't give a damn," said Ed Brown, a spokesman for the Constitution  Defense Militia, based in Plainfield, N.H. But Brown, like many other conspiracy theorists who inhabit the right-wing fringe,  contended that McVeigh's trial for blowing up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and killing 168 people was a sham and  that McVeigh was "assisted in the bombing by criminals within the United States government."

 McVeigh's deadly act of terror brought unwelcome attention to paramilitary units that once existed in nearly every state  and were ready to wage war with federal agents -- whom they saw as poised to grab their guns and crush their civil rights.  Militia ranks grew dramatically after the bloody FBI sieges at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and near Waco, Tex. -- events that McVeigh's  lawyers said motivated his rage -- but the groups now appear to be far less active, and their existence doesn't generally  worry the FBI.

 "Most of the militia organizations around the country are not, in our view, threatening or dangerous," FBI Director Louis  J. Freeh testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee two days after a Denver jury convicted McVeigh of the bombing. The  majority of militia members are nonviolent and some have assisted the bureau in its investigations, he said.

 The Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitor hate groups, report that many militia members  have dropped their affiliations, joining "Common Law" groups instead and clogging the courts with nuisance suits. About 15,000  people belong to militias nationwide, by the ADL's estimate, although such numbers are difficult to verify.

 McVeigh traveled the gun-show circuit but reportedly was kicked out of the only militia meeting he attended in Michigan.  "The bombing already had its effect on the movement -- they have disassociated themselves from McVeigh. The trend is toward  a diminishing of militia activity," said Richard Baudouin, a spokesman for the Klanwatch project of the Southern Poverty Law  Center in Montgomery, Ala. "We don't think the verdicts will have any effect on the above-ground movement."

 More worrisome to federal authorities are a small number of underground, "leaderless cells" of the extreme right that advocate  bank robbery, bombings and the violent overthrow of the government. Like McVeigh, they draw inspiration from "The Turner Diaries,"  a racist, antisemitic novel about revolutionaries who blow up the FBI building. In an earlier hearing, Freeh expressed concern  that "law-abiding" militias might be infiltrated by more hardcore extremists to "further their own terrorist agendas."

 Among many in the "patriot" movement, McVeigh's guilt is not disputed, but the case is hardly closed. "Most of my listeners  seem to agree that McVeigh deserved the death penalty for his role, but that others were involved and they should be nabbed,"  said Tom Valentine, host of a shortwave talk show called Radio Free America, based in Fort Myers, Fla.

The ever-suspicious Internet remains rife with theories that several "John Does" were involved in the bombing. Many view McVeigh  as a "fall guy" and "patsy," said Dave Trochmann, co-founder of the Militia of Montana. "There are so many unanswered questions  that to put this thing to rest just because McVeigh's been found guilty would be a bad disservice to the citizens of this  country."

 Tony Sgarlatti of Hopkins, Minn., is selling an "Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak" ($29.95) via a site on the World Wide Web. It offers alternative theories on the April 19, 1995, blast,  including allegations that the explosion came from bombs planted inside the Murrah building. His latest theory is that an  "electromagnetic pulse weapon" was involved. Other Web sites carry photos of a Ryder truck parked at a military installation  in Oklahoma, where conspiracy-minded investigators contend the fertilizer bomb was assembled.

 The Oklahoma National Guard confirmed Friday that the aerial photos were indeed taken above Camp Gruber in the fall of 1994 and said the classified project  involved weapons sensors and was overseen by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. The National Guard's statement said the truck "had no association whatsoever with the tragedy at the Alfred P. Murrah Building."

Sgarlatti, a member of the non-armed Citizens for a Constitutional Minnesota, does not buy the official line. "I don't believe  McVeigh was the mastermind in doing all of the tragic stuff that occurred. If he's killed, of course, the answers are going  to go to the grave with him."

Copyright 1997 The Washington Post

if the national guard's authentication is worth a damn, then you better pay attention to everything they have to say Roll Eyes your site couldn't even get a simple date of publication right . . . real credible work is being done here.

240, if i can go to the trouble of checking your sources, how about you do it yourself?
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2006, 10:12:25 PM »

I can't tell if you seriously buy the official govt line, or if you're just arguing for argument's sake.



LOL,... I confess to wondering this myself.
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2006, 10:14:59 PM »


Paper: Washington Post
Title: MANY MILITIA GROUPS SCALE BACK, DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM MCVEIGH
Date: June 14, 1997

Though he hoped to spark an armed revolution, Timothy J. McVeigh ended up weakening the anti-government militia movement,  whose visible membership has declined since the Oklahoma City bomber's capture and trial, experts who monitor extremism said yesterday. Militia members expressed a cool indifference  about McVeigh's fate, saying he stigmatized their cause and is no martyr.
 "As far as McVeigh's concerned, we couldn't care less. We don't give a damn," said Ed Brown, a spokesman for the Constitution  Defense Militia, based in Plainfield, N.H. But Brown, like many other conspiracy theorists who inhabit the right-wing fringe,  contended that McVeigh's trial for blowing up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and killing 168 people was a sham and  that McVeigh was "assisted in the bombing by criminals within the United States government."

 McVeigh's deadly act of terror brought unwelcome attention to paramilitary units that once existed in nearly every state  and were ready to wage war with federal agents -- whom they saw as poised to grab their guns and crush their civil rights.  Militia ranks grew dramatically after the bloody FBI sieges at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and near Waco, Tex. -- events that McVeigh's  lawyers said motivated his rage -- but the groups now appear to be far less active, and their existence doesn't generally  worry the FBI.

 "Most of the militia organizations around the country are not, in our view, threatening or dangerous," FBI Director Louis  J. Freeh testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee two days after a Denver jury convicted McVeigh of the bombing. The  majority of militia members are nonviolent and some have assisted the bureau in its investigations, he said.

 The Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitor hate groups, report that many militia members  have dropped their affiliations, joining "Common Law" groups instead and clogging the courts with nuisance suits. About 15,000  people belong to militias nationwide, by the ADL's estimate, although such numbers are difficult to verify.

 McVeigh traveled the gun-show circuit but reportedly was kicked out of the only militia meeting he attended in Michigan.  "The bombing already had its effect on the movement -- they have disassociated themselves from McVeigh. The trend is toward  a diminishing of militia activity," said Richard Baudouin, a spokesman for the Klanwatch project of the Southern Poverty Law  Center in Montgomery, Ala. "We don't think the verdicts will have any effect on the above-ground movement."

 More worrisome to federal authorities are a small number of underground, "leaderless cells" of the extreme right that advocate  bank robbery, bombings and the violent overthrow of the government. Like McVeigh, they draw inspiration from "The Turner Diaries,"  a racist, antisemitic novel about revolutionaries who blow up the FBI building. In an earlier hearing, Freeh expressed concern  that "law-abiding" militias might be infiltrated by more hardcore extremists to "further their own terrorist agendas."

 Among many in the "patriot" movement, McVeigh's guilt is not disputed, but the case is hardly closed. "Most of my listeners  seem to agree that McVeigh deserved the death penalty for his role, but that others were involved and they should be nabbed,"  said Tom Valentine, host of a shortwave talk show called Radio Free America, based in Fort Myers, Fla.

The ever-suspicious Internet remains rife with theories that several "John Does" were involved in the bombing. Many view McVeigh  as a "fall guy" and "patsy," said Dave Trochmann, co-founder of the Militia of Montana. "There are so many unanswered questions  that to put this thing to rest just because McVeigh's been found guilty would be a bad disservice to the citizens of this  country."

 Tony Sgarlatti of Hopkins, Minn., is selling an "Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak" ($29.95) via a site on the World Wide Web. It offers alternative theories on the April 19, 1995, blast,  including allegations that the explosion came from bombs planted inside the Murrah building. His latest theory is that an  "electromagnetic pulse weapon" was involved. Other Web sites carry photos of a Ryder truck parked at a military installation  in Oklahoma, where conspiracy-minded investigators contend the fertilizer bomb was assembled.

 The Oklahoma National Guard confirmed Friday that the aerial photos were indeed taken above Camp Gruber in the fall of 1994 and said the classified project  involved weapons sensors and was overseen by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. The National Guard's statement said the truck "had no association whatsoever with the tragedy at the Alfred P. Murrah Building."

Sgarlatti, a member of the non-armed Citizens for a Constitutional Minnesota, does not buy the official line. "I don't believe  McVeigh was the mastermind in doing all of the tragic stuff that occurred. If he's killed, of course, the answers are going  to go to the grave with him."

Copyright 1997 The Washington Post

if the national guard's authentication is worth a damn, then you better pay attention to everything they have to say Roll Eyes your site couldn't even get a simple date of publication right . . . real credible work is being done here.

240, if i can go to the trouble of checking your sources, how about you do it yourself?
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