Author Topic: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."  (Read 5567 times)

Deedee

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Re: Rabbi Goldstein: Overview of Zionism
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2006, 07:08:24 AM »
You posted a pic, without any ironic disclaimer or shit like that, with pics of Hitler and Bush.

It read: "Same shit Different assholes"


That looks very much like stating like they're equal.

If you dislike Bush, that's fine. But don't compare his "evil" or crimes to that of Adolf Hitler.

It's not in the same ballpark, not the same league, not whatever.


Anyone who has family that lived through WWII under Hitler, knows that what you say is very true. People simply have no idea.

Hedgehog

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Re: Rabbi Goldstein: Overview of Zionism
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2006, 07:14:02 AM »
I think if & when the full laundry list of his crimes comes out, it's gonna be a nightmare for his successors to bring him to full justice. For the same reason Queen Elizabeth I had a hard time dispatching the Scottish queen, it's a nasty precedent one sets by incarcerating a US president let alone charging him with a capital offense.

Ok.

Lets say he's guilty of a lot of crimes.

A LOT.



Remember,

Adolf Hitler - responsible for WWII and slaughtering of millions on ethnic grounds.

How could Bush be equal (or same) to Hitler?


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Zack
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bmacsys

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Re: Rabbi Goldstein: Overview of Zionism
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2006, 07:17:37 AM »
Anyone who has family that lived through the WWII under Hitler, knows that what you say is very true. People simply have no idea.

A man I work with was born in France in 1939. He was a young boy during the occupation of France. His dad was was a dentist. They were Jewish. One day some SS men came and got his dad. He never saw his father again. I think he knows the distinction between George Bush and Adolf Hitler pretty well.
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Hedgehog

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Re: Rabbi Goldstein: Overview of Zionism
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2006, 07:34:14 AM »
A big problem when comparisons to Hitler, and shit like that is written or stated somewhere, is that whatever fair critisism of Bush that is brought up, could be associated with the baseless propaganda that a Hitler-Bush comparison is.

Nobody with a serious interest in democracy would ever want to be associated with crap like comparing the evils of Hitler to those of Bush.

So essentially, the zealots who brings up Hitler and other butchers in our history when they try to 'debate', are effectively helping the Bush side of the argument.

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Zack
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bmacsys

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Re: Rabbi Goldstein: Overview of Zionism
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2006, 07:40:23 AM »
A big problem when comparisons to Hitler, and shit like that is written or stated somewhere, is that whatever fair critisism of Bush that is brought up, could be associated with the baseless propaganda that a Hitler-Bush comparison is.

Nobody with a serious interest in democracy would ever want to be associated with crap like comparing the evils of Hitler to those of Bush.

So essentially, the zealots who brings up Hitler and other butchers in our history when they try to 'debate', are effectively helping the Bush side of the argument.

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Zack

When you make comparisons like that your credibility has to come into question. Its like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to someone who got a parking ticket.
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2007, 05:43:34 AM »
The Fox News interview above is very interesting... It backs up that the Iranian president did not say he wanted Israel wiped off the map and translations of what he said do indeed point to that he actually said he wants to see zionism removed from the pages of history.  The people who innitially translated his words admit to being rushed and admit to it being a hard translation.

Decker

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Re: Rabbi Goldstein: Overview of Zionism
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2007, 07:07:11 AM »
...George Bush, for all his incompetence, isn't responsible for genocide, for systematic elimination of ethnicities or all the other horrible crimes that are Hitler's "legacy".

Bush may or may not be a bad politician. But he's a politician in a civilized, democratic society. The beauty is that you're allowed to voice this actually totally baseless attack on Bush, because we live in a democracy.

Thing is, you come across as a zealot. Someone without any grasp of moderation. Everything is either black or white, good or bad with you.

What little credibility you have left, is rapidly diminishing due to this.

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Zack
I don't care for histrionical comparisons of Bush and Hitler, but you said that Bush isn't responsible for a genocide or ethnic cleansing and that such an attack is baseless.

I think you are wrong on that point and here's why:  Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq that killed over 70,000 Iraqis and permitted the Shia majority to engage in ethnic cleansing of the Sunni minority.  But for Bush's ordered attack on Iraq, there would be no ethnic cleansing in Iraq.  Those are facts.

And now for my opinion.

The invasion was illegal under international law.

If an invasion/use of force is not legal, then it is illegal.  Why is that important?  B/c it is the difference between self-defense and murder.

headhuntersix

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2007, 07:27:59 AM »
While many people may have died like u mentioned...nobody told me or anybody else to round up and kill civilians...i was there. Bush is in no way shape or form in the same universe as Hitler.  He may be guilty of incompetence for listening to Rummy and Cheney. Also please rememer, as many of u libs post on a daily basis, that Bush and company thought we'd be greeted as liberators. So which is it, Bush as a bringer of (failed) democracy or Bush as Reinhart Hydreich, u people can't have it both ways.
L

Hedgehog

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2007, 08:53:39 AM »
I don't care for histrionical comparisons of Bush and Hitler, but you said that Bush isn't responsible for a genocide or ethnic cleansing and that such an attack is baseless.

I think you are wrong on that point and here's why:  Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq that killed over 70,000 Iraqis and permitted the Shia majority to engage in ethnic cleansing of the Sunni minority.  But for Bush's ordered attack on Iraq, there would be no ethnic cleansing in Iraq.  Those are facts.

And now for my opinion.

The invasion was illegal under international law.

If an invasion/use of force is not legal, then it is illegal.  Why is that important?  B/c it is the difference between self-defense and murder.


Correct: The invasion was illegal under international law. I have never supported the Iraq war. The UN inspectors were searching Iraq, and effective at it.

The attack on Iraq was clearly illegal, and Bush is responsible for it.

But Bush didn't order any genocide.

My critisism of jaguar was that she equalled Bush to Hitler, which is ridiculous.

At best.
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2007, 09:09:32 AM »
Correct: The invasion was illegal under international law. I have never supported the Iraq war. The UN inspectors were searching Iraq, and effective at it.

The attack on Iraq was clearly illegal, and Bush is responsible for it.

But Bush didn't order any genocide.

My critisism of jaguar was that she equalled Bush to Hitler, which is ridiculous.

At best.
As long as you're not looking at the Bush Dynasty, then you'll have some debates.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2007, 09:14:37 AM »
Click to enlarge:


Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2007, 09:21:50 AM »
“Bush - Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951” - Federal Documents
By John Buchanan and Stacey Michael
from The New Hampshire Gazette Vol. 248, No. 3, November 7, 2003

After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures included former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions, from 1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown Brothers Harriman.

The White House did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Although the additional seizures under the Trading with the Enemy Act did not take place until after the war, documents from The National Archives and Library of Congress confirm that Bush and his partners continued their Nazi dealings unabated. These activities included a financial relationship with the German city of Hanover and several industrial concerns. They went undetected by investigators until after World War Two.

At the same time Bush and the Harrimans were profiting from their Nazi partnerships, W. Averell Harriman was serving as President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's personal emissary to the United Kingdom during the toughest years of the war. On October 28, 1942, the same day two key Bush-Harriman-run businesses were being seized by the U.S. government, Harriman was meeting in London with Field Marshall Smuts to discuss the war effort.

Denial and Deceit

While Harriman was concealing his Nazi relationships from his government colleagues, Cornelius Livense, the top executive of the interlocking German concerns held under the corporate umbrella of Union Banking Corporation (UBC), repeatedly tried to mislead investigators, and was sometimes supported in his subterfuge by Brown Brothers Harriman.

All of the assets of UBC and its related businesses belonged to Thyssen-controlled enterprises, including his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart in Rotterdam, the documents state.

Nevertheless, Livense, president of UBC, claimed to have no knowledge of such a relationship. "Strangely enough, (Livense) claims he does not know the actual ownership of the company," states a government report.

H.D Pennington, manager of Brown Brothers Harriman and a director of UBC "for many years," also lied to investigators about the secret and well-concealed relationship with Thyssen's Dutch bank, according to the documents.

Investigators later reported that the company was "wholly owned" by Thyssen's Dutch bank.

Despite such ongoing subterfuge, U.S. investigators were able to show that "a careful examination of UBC's general ledger, cash books and journals from 1919 until the present date clearly establish that the principal and practically only source of funds has been Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart."

In yet another attempt to mislead investigators, Livense said that $240,000 in banknotes in a safe deposit box at Underwriters Trust Co. in New York had been given to him by another UBC-Thyssen associate, H.J. Kouwenhoven, managing director of Thyssen's Dutch bank and a director of the August Thyssen Bank in Berlin. August Thyssen was Fritz's father.

The government report shows that Livense first neglected to report the $240,000, then claimed that it had been given to him as a gift by Kouwenhoven. However, by the time Livense filed a financial disclosure with U.S. officials, he changed his story again and reported the sum as a debt rather than a cash holding.

In yet another attempt to deceive the governments of both the U.S. and Canada, Livense and his partners misreported the facts about the sale of a Canadian Nazi front enterprise, La Cooperative Catholique des Consommateurs de Combustible, which imported German coal into Canada via the web of Thyssen-controlled U.S. businesses.

"The Canadian authorities, however, were not taken in by this maneuver," a U.S. government report states. The coal company was later seized by Canadian authorities.

After the war, a total of 18 additional Brown Brothers Harriman and UBC-related client assets were seized under The Trading with the Enemy Act, including several that showed the continuation of a relationship with the Thyssen family after the initial 1942 seizures.

The records also show that Bush and the Harrimans conducted business after the war with related concerns doing business in or moving assets into Switzerland, Panama, Argentina and Brazil - all critical outposts for the flight of Nazi capital after Germany's surrender in 1945. Fritz Thyssen died in Argentina in 1951.

One of the final seizures, in October 1950, concerned the U.S. assets of a Nazi baroness named Theresia Maria Ida Beneditka Huberta Stanislava Martina von Schwarzenberg, who also used two shorter aliases. Brown Brothers Harriman, where Prescott Bush and the Harrimans were partners, attempted to convince government investigators that the baroness had been a victim of Nazi persecution and therefore should be allowed to maintain her assets.

"It appears, rather, that the subject was a member of the Nazi party," government investigators concluded.

At the same time the last Brown Brothers Harriman client assets were seized, Prescott Bush announced his Senate campaign that led to his election in 1952.

Investigation Investigated?

In 1943, six months after the seizure of UBC and its related companies, a government investigator noted in a Treasury Department memo dated April 8, 1943 that the FBI had inquired about the status of any investigation into Bush and the Harrimans.

"I gave 'a memorandum' which did not say anything about the American officers of subject," the investigator wrote. "(Another investigator) wanted to know whether any specific action had been taken by us with respect to them."

No further action beyond the initial seizures was ever taken, and the newly-confirmed records went unseen by the American people for six decades.

What Does It All Mean?

So why are the documents relevant today?

"The story of Prescott Bush and Brown Brothers Harriman is an introduction to the real history of our country," says L.A. art book publisher and historian Edward Boswell. "It exposes the money-making motives behind our foreign policies, dating back a full century. The ability of Prescott Bush and the Harrimans to bury their checkered pasts also reveals a collusion between Wall Street and the media that exists to this day."

Sheldon Drobny, a Chicago entrepreneur and philanthropist who will soon launch a liberal talk radio network, says the importance of the new documents is that they prove a long pattern of Bush family war profiteering that continues today via George H.W. Bush's intimate relationship with the Saudi royal family and the bin Ladens, conducted via the super-secret Carlyle Group, whose senior advisers include former U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker III.

In the post-9/11 world, Drobny finds the Bush-Saudi connection deeply troubling. "Trading with the enemy is trading with the enemy," he says. "That's the relevance of the documents and what they show."

Lawrence Lader, an abortion rights activist and the author of more than 40 books, says "the relevance lies with the fact that the sitting President of the United States would lead the nation to war based on lies and against the wishes of the rest of the world." Lader and others draw comparisons between President Bush's invasion of Iraq and Hitler's occupation of Poland in 1939 - the event that sparked World War Two.

However, others see an even larger significance.

"The discovery of the Bush-Nazi documents raises new questions about the role of Prescott Bush and his influential business partners in the secret emigration of Nazi war criminals, which allowed them to escape justice in Germany," says Bob Fertik, co-founder of Democrats.com and an amateur 'Nazi hunter.' "It also raises questions about the importance of Nazi recruits to the CIA in its early years, in what was called Operation Paperclip, and Prescott Bush's role in that dark operation."

Fertik and others, including former Justice Department Nazi war crimes prosecutor John Loftus, a Constitutional attorney in Miami, and a former Veterans Administration official, believe Prescott Bush and the Harrimans should have been tried for treason.

What Next?

Now, say Fertik and Loftus, there should be a Congressional investigation into the Bush family's Nazi past and its concealment from the American people for 60 years.

"The American people have a right to know, in detail, about this hidden chapter of our history," says Loftus, author of The Secret War Against the Jews. "That's the only way we can understand it and deal with it."

For his part, Fertik is pessimistic that even a Congressional investigation can thwart the war profiteering of the present Bush White House. "It's impossible to stop it," he says, "when the worst war profiteers are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, who operate in secrecy behind the vast powers of the White House."

Decker

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2007, 10:49:29 AM »
Berserker,

That stuff about the Bush family and its enrichment from Nazi investments is true.  Disturbing, but true.  When elites smell new markets for exploitation, all moral considerations pretty much go away.

What also bothers me is this: President Reagan was shot by a family friend of the Bushes.  The day before the assassination attempt, Neil Bush had dinner with the shooter's brother.

I bring this up just b/c I saw The Manchurian Candidate w/ Sinatra over the weekend and it brought the assassination attempt to mind.

Then in a related note, we have the Bin Ladens--a close business relation with the Bush family.  Coincidentally, the son of that family orchestrates the 9/11 attacks.

I find these coincidences pretty entertaining in a sinister way but then again, I have an active imagination.

Decker

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2007, 10:51:20 AM »
While many people may have died like u mentioned...nobody told me or anybody else to round up and kill civilians...i was there. Bush is in no way shape or form in the same universe as Hitler.  He may be guilty of incompetence for listening to Rummy and Cheney. Also please rememer, as many of u libs post on a daily basis, that Bush and company thought we'd be greeted as liberators. So which is it, Bush as a bringer of (failed) democracy or Bush as Reinhart Hydreich, u people can't have it both ways.
Like I said, I think comparing Bush to Hitler is histrionical and not apt.  But to deny that Bush has not caused the wheels of genocide and destruction to roll on a grand scale is to ignore the facts.

Decker

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2007, 10:52:57 AM »
Correct: The invasion was illegal under international law. I have never supported the Iraq war. The UN inspectors were searching Iraq, and effective at it.

The attack on Iraq was clearly illegal, and Bush is responsible for it.

But Bush didn't order any genocide.

My critisism of jaguar was that she equalled Bush to Hitler, which is ridiculous.

At best.
I agree with your note on the comparison.  But it is undeniable that Bush set the process in motion for genocide (uncorked the Shia cleansing of the Sunni) and he did cause death and destruction on a massive scale with the Iraqi invasion.

Hedgehog

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 03:49:47 AM »
I agree with your note on the comparison.  But it is undeniable that Bush set the process in motion for genocide (uncorked the Shia cleansing of the Sunni) and he did cause death and destruction on a massive scale with the Iraqi invasion.

You are right on all this.

Still, it hurts the legit anti-war activism when nutjobs makes crazy claims, like that comparison of Hitler and Bush.

Which is essentially my point.

Instead of discussing the real issue (illegal invasion despite the weapon inspectors doing their job), we will get a pseudo-debate, that the Bush Administration have no problem handling.

Because no sane person will believe that Bush is comparable to Hitler, so if the critisism gets associated with that rhetoric, the public will have no choice but to go with Bush.

I'm not saying that jag is a nutjob, but on this instance, she definitately argued like one.
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Deicide

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2007, 05:07:49 AM »
You are right on all this.

Still, it hurts the legit anti-war activism when nutjobs makes crazy claims, like that comparison of Hitler and Bush.

Which is essentially my point.

Instead of discussing the real issue (illegal invasion despite the weapon inspectors doing their job), we will get a pseudo-debate, that the Bush Administration have no problem handling.

Because no sane person will believe that Bush is comparable to Hitler, so if the critisism gets associated with that rhetoric, the public will have no choice but to go with Bush.

I'm not saying that jag is a nutjob, but on this instance, she definitately argued like one.

Clinton set the groundwork for the invasion with his sanctions which killed 500,000 people...
I hate the State.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2007, 08:02:30 AM »
Berserker,

That stuff about the Bush family and its enrichment from Nazi investments is true.  Disturbing, but true.  When elites smell new markets for exploitation, all moral considerations pretty much go away.

What also bothers me is this: President Reagan was shot by a family friend of the Bushes.  The day before the assassination attempt, Neil Bush had dinner with the shooter's brother.


I bring this up just b/c I saw The Manchurian Candidate w/ Sinatra over the weekend and it brought the assassination attempt to mind.

Then in a related note, we have the Bin Ladens--a close business relation with the Bush family.  Coincidentally, the son of that family orchestrates the 9/11 attacks.

I find these coincidences pretty entertaining in a sinister way but then again, I have an active imagination.
Exactly right.  Funny, I was flipping around and caught the same show last weekend.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2007, 08:11:00 AM »
Clinton set the groundwork for the invasion with his sanctions which killed 500,000 people...
Clinton didn't set the groundwork for sanctions but he sure went along with it...

To bad more didn't do this:
Quote
Denis Halliday was appointed United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator in Baghdad, Iraq as of 1 September 1997, at the Assistant Secretary-General level. In October 1998 he resigned after a 34 year career with the UN in order to have the freedom to criticise the sanctions regime, saying "I don't want to administer a programme that satisfies the definition of genocide"

Decker

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2007, 10:43:48 AM »
Exactly right.  Funny, I was flipping around and caught the same show last weekend.
I always wondered how the 'liberal media' would have treated Bill Clinton if his brother did the same sort of thing...or if Bill Clinton's grandfather did business with the Nazis.

That darn liberal media always let Clinton slide on everything.

And on topic, I believe that Israel should have a homeland and it should be Wyoming.  There.  Problem solved.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: "The State of Israel should come to an end..."
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2007, 10:53:50 AM »
I always wondered how the 'liberal media' would have treated Bill Clinton if his brother did the same sort of thing...or if Bill Clinton's grandfather did business with the Nazis.

That darn liberal media always let Clinton slide on everything.

And on topic, I believe that Israel should have a homeland and it should be Wyoming.  There.  Problem solved.
Well, the Zionist element wouldn't have many enemies in Wyo so that's a thought :D  but I think the best idea is to do away with the Zionism and just have a state where all are welcome, a state that doesn't put the needs of one people/religion over another, but that's not going to happen.  Not a fan of Achmenaninjad but I think this is what he and anti-zionist Jews support.  But Christian Zionists will not favor any such thing... For them, there is an endplan that needs a Jewish state to run a predestined course so there is a two faced power structure in play that virtually assures a different coarse.