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Author Topic: The Adonis Principles vs. Doggcrapp  (Read 10114 times)
natural al
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2006, 04:41:19 AM »

David Henry got big on DC. Mentzer, Viator, Dugdale, and Dorian on HIT variations. Arnold on volume, but his best on volume with intensity. Johnny Jackson and Eric Bui by powerlifting. Serge on lots of volume. They all found what worked best for them. They all tried various styles of training, saw the results that they got, and eventually found what their body responded best to, in both ecercise and diet. Dorian carefully logged and measured everything about his diet, Darrem plays it by ear.

There is no "one" method to getting big. There is what works for you the best, which may not be what works for someone else the best. Adonis isn't revolutionizing bodybuilding, he's just presenting his variation on it. Which is pretty close to a lot of other guys' variation. Same with Dante. Though he hates having it categorized as HIT, it's very similar (I think it's actually remarkably similar to a hardcore version of the Body for Life program). You can argue how much better one system is over another till the end of time, but there will never be a resolution. For every person who got awesome results training one way, there's someone who didn't get any.

Adonis's principles work for him. Awesome. DC's work for Dave Henry. Awesome. Each and every one of us has what works for us. Talking about different systems can be educational and rewarding, and certainly trying out different things is the best way to find what works for you. But argueing about what system works best is just retarded. There is no best, just different.

see, this is probably the best post on this thread, my minds a little scattered so mine might not have been that great but if more people thought  like this guy this place would be much better off.....
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2006, 04:46:00 AM »

LOL all of this comming from someone under 200lbs LOL man your my favorite character on this board TA. keep eating your girly diet and looking like a girl scout.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2006, 09:51:40 AM »

El Spiko's words sound reasonable but they explain nothing at all.

Dante might be controversial but he is using principles that work. Progression, heavy resistance, volume, intensity, novelty, and super nutrition in the sense of eating like crazy.

Larry Scott and Vince Gironda invented new training methods that worked, too. So did Arthur Jones who got the great Sergio at his biggest in a short time personally training him. Some people know more about training than others and if we can synthesize a method out of all the successful ones then we might be close to understanding hypertrophy. While we argue about which is best and use rationalizations about individualization we are never going to find the best method. Clearly, if you are not growing then you have to try something different. Novelty could be one of the most important factors after resistance that leads to more growth.
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2006, 02:32:48 PM »

El Spiko's words sound reasonable but they explain nothing at all.

Dante might be controversial but he is using principles that work. Progression, heavy resistance, volume, intensity, novelty, and super nutrition in the sense of eating like crazy.

Larry Scott and Vince Gironda invented new training methods that worked, too. So did Arthur Jones who got the great Sergio at his biggest in a short time personally training him. Some people know more about training than others and if we can synthesize a method out of all the successful ones then we might be close to understanding hypertrophy. While we argue about which is best and use rationalizations about individualization we are never going to find the best method. Clearly, if you are not growing then you have to try something different. Novelty could be one of the most important factors after resistance that leads to more growth.



I think that the human body and the process of altering it is too complex for there to be one true method. I do think there are some fundamental truths to changing your physique, but I just do not see it being possible to have one system that applies to everyone with equal success. One day we may be able to measure every process of the human body and be able to decode it's secrets, and from that knowledge develope a method to determine the best way for an individual person to change their body. But it will not be the same for everyone. One person might be best suited to doing high volume with light weights. One person might be better suited to something with super heavy weights and straight sets. Another, high intensity. Indeed some people know more about training than others, but ask any of those people if they apply the same training and nutrition program to everyone and they will tell you they don't. And everyone who has trained for a long time and has gotten to know their body makes whatever program they are doing their own. Take two people doing the same program with the same nutrition and training, and they will both get different results and you will see that they have individualized their program to work best for them, whether it's a difference in grip or an extra twist of the wrist or the rest between exercises. In the end, what you get out of a program is not determined by how well it works for everybody else, but how well you can make it work for you.
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2006, 06:40:29 PM »

I have discussed the methods problems with my son who is an exercise physiologist and he tells me that there are too many factors involved in exercise and individuals to actually pin down what is causing what. We say that two people are following the same program but how would we know that what they are doing is identical? Some people do exercises strictly and others swing. Leverages and length of limbs are important and so are insertions and origings. We have no way of knowing if internal states of effort are equivalent. It really becomes quite difficult to set up scientific experiments using subjects who move because it is unlikely all the factors will be identified and controlled. If you do not know what is causing what you cannot call what you are doing science.

Conceptually it must be possible to state a theory of hypertrophy that would apply to everyone. Sub-sections of the theory would deal with various populations such as women and older people. However, the same principles would apply to everyone but perhaps not in the same way. We can state that the components of exercise programs are the same. Namely subjects do exercises where a certain amount of mechanical tension is applied to target muscles. What then has to be determined is how much tension and for how long and how frequently. Nutrition needs are also important and so are the hormone levels in individuals. It should be possible to come up with recipes from the main hypertrophy theory that trainees follow to get results. There should be feedback that will indicate any progress and what to do about either growing or not growing.

We could start by describing and listing the various things that we do know about hypertrophy and physiology. Go to HST and read the accumulated information acquired from exercise science. It is quite a lot that is already known yet we still find just about everyone who is a bodybuilder having trouble growing. That is what is difficult to explain. How come all those intermediate and advanced bodybuilders cannot make themselves grow any more?
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2006, 07:14:33 PM »

A creatures structure can only support so much. I think that as you push your bodies growth potential to its limits, you start to see a diminishing return for the amount of fuel required versus what you get out of it. Dante of DC fame seems to think that it's just because people change their workout style and dieting to conform to what they think they are supposed to be doing at that stage. And there is probably some truth to that. And some of it is that they're not seeking the maximal growth possible, but a controlled growth in only certain areas of their body. And they may have just pushed their body as far as it will go. On the other hand, it may be possible to find out what it is that is limiting them in their growth at that stage and neutralize it, whether with a different protocol or supplementation/"sports technology".

I think we do have some basic principles of hypertrophy. You break down the muscle and build it up. You fuel your body with protein. The more intense, the better your results. Get enough rest to let your body recover. Every workout has worked wonders for someone and totally failed someone. I don't think that the specific details of a workout program are as important as the work you put and the intensity you bring. Whether you are making a workout intense by doing lots of rep, lots of sets, heavy weights or forced reps or rest-pause or whatever, it is that intensity, that will to push your body beyond muscular failure that counts. Arnold always said that it was those last few reps that count, those ones that you can only get when you push through the pain barrier. In any style of workout, that is always the goal, to push through pain and failure.

Of course there is more to learn about how the body grows and how to optimize that growth. It's a continueing never ending process. But no matter what you're eating or what training program you're doing or what kind of supplements or drugs you're taking, none of it will matter if you cannot push through that pain barrier in your workouts and get a truly intense workout. Many people have found the way that best allows them to do that. And by following in their footsteps, you may discover the way that allows you to do that as well. Or you might not, and so you try something else. And once you do find what works for you, then you can apply that to every workout, to every training regimen. Arnold and Sergio both got big no matter how they were training, no matter what style, because they could bring their focus and willpower to bear every workout.

I love learning more about bodybuilding and the physiology and science behind it. I try to apply everything I learn, and then learn how to make it work best for me. But without the ability to apply that knowledge to ones own body, it does nothing. And I think that that ability is one that is learned through experience, through trial and error. If there were ever "True" principles to hypertrophy, I think they would be knowledge, instinct and will.
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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2006, 07:34:28 PM »

Word Mentzers theories worked for me i tweaked them so they were a bit more like Dorians training and got amazing results.


Fatty (Dante) is a marketing genius though, he as you say basically copied HIT added some bullshit for a hook for the imbeciles out there who are too lazy to see what works for them.

 

good post, Dante preys on people with no self esteem and then stokes them with b/s gym jargon like becoming a human blast furnace.
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2006, 07:39:00 PM »

Okay, we have a dialogue. It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to growth is the repeated bout effect. Somehow you have to overcome that adaptation and still cause more hypertrophy. So I would question the process in the first place. When is it optimum to train the same muscle again? That is the crucial element in hypertrophy. You and others believe you need to recover to grow. Is that true and how do you know this? It is my conjecture that you should not let the muscle recover but hit it again while it is still growing. That way there is little or no repeated bout effect. If you let the muscle recover how then are you going to trigger more and more hypertrophy? I would bet that just about everyone got this process wrong and it is a huge mistake.

For example, how do we explain swimmers, throwers, runners and weight lifters all training daily and still making progress? How is that possible? How can anyone swim twice a day and improve? Where is the recovery? So these athletes must know something that bodybuilders don't know. Perhaps bodybuilders would train athletes with more rest periods and days off but that is not what we find works. Well, I don't know of anyone who trains only twice a week and holds world records in running or swimming.
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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2006, 07:40:37 PM »

How did Mike want you to rest pause?  It's not the same as how Dante suggests

ya, mentzer said about 10-15 seconds, dante says 15 deep breaths.

wow, where does dante come up with these groundbreaking variations that he calls "his". hhahahahaha

natural al, re-read  Your MA's post.

Dante is word for word tweaked HIT training that ANYONE with any common sense could've figured out on their own.

Want to know how to eat, just read a couple of TA's threads, it's not rocket science and most of these fat ass bodybuilders over eat, and they over eat with protein

Dante's got a good scam going no 2 ways about it. Most people just don't have the balls to rip off someone else's work, pass it as their own and then charge $500.
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« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2006, 08:06:46 PM »

Okay, we have a dialogue. It seems to me that the biggest obstacle to growth is the repeated bout effect. Somehow you have to overcome that adaptation and still cause more hypertrophy. So I would question the process in the first place. When is it optimum to train the same muscle again? That is the crucial element in hypertrophy. You and others believe you need to recover to grow. Is that true and how do you know this? It is my conjecture that you should not let the muscle recover but hit it again while it is still growing. That way there is little or no repeated bout effect. If you let the muscle recover how then are you going to trigger more and more hypertrophy? I would bet that just about everyone got this process wrong and it is a huge mistake.

For example, how do we explain swimmers, throwers, runners and weight lifters all training daily and still making progress? How is that possible? How can anyone swim twice a day and improve? Where is the recovery? So these athletes must know something that bodybuilders don't know. Perhaps bodybuilders would train athletes with more rest periods and days off but that is not what we find works. Well, I don't know of anyone who trains only twice a week and holds world records in running or swimming.

A swimmers physique is not a bodybuilders. A throwers physique is not a bodybuilders. None of them are. They are training their body to do a repetitive action, honing a skill. Bodybuilding is different. To quote Charles Gaines, "Bodybuilding is athletic training for artistic competition". You can hone your skills in the gym, allowing you to get the most out of a workout. You can hone your posing skills, learning how to make yourelf look as good as possible. You can train your muscles to endure flexing and posing for long periods of time, because it is a repetitive action. Our bodies are always seeking equilibrium. If you repeat an action everyday, then your body will adapt to best be able to handle that. But sports coaches don't have their athlete's do intense practices the night before a game. Fatigue is a very real thing. The body needs rest to recover, to heal itself. Powerlifters don't train everyday. They have learned, through trial and error, that they need time to let their bodies rest and recuperate, time to heal and grow stronger. Bodybuilders know that you can overtrain. There comes a time when the muscle no longer responds, no longer gets a pump or grows. It has adapted to the activity, learning how to most efficiently perfomr the exercise while expending the least amount of energy possible. Which is what you want in an athletic competition, to do the most with the least amount of effort. It is because of that adaptability of the body that bodybuilders change exercises, change routines, change weights and anything else they can think of. Muscles grow because you challenge them and get as much effort as you can out of them.

An example. When I was first interested in working out, I had no equipment and no gym membership. So I did crunches and pushups every night. And at first I saw results. But after doing that for a bit, I stagnated. So I did more of everything. And I kept having to do more and more until I was doing hundreds and hundreds of crunches and pushups. And I was getting no where. I was never feeling it, never sore. When I finally did start going to a gym, I again saw great results. I did weighted ab exercises every day. And very quickly, I was never sore, never making any progress with my abs. When I finally started giving my body time to rest, only doing abs a couple times a week, I started to see progress again. I'm sure most of us have had a similar experience during our early days of working out. You learn that as much as you want to train everyday, more does not necessarily mean better. Now how long a muscle needs to recover is open to debate. But it does need to recover if you want it to grow. It needs that time to rest and become open to new stimulus. Otherwise, it will adapt, not by becoming hypertrophic, but by having greater endurance and expending less effort in the process.
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« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2006, 08:39:50 PM »

I wonder about athletes and bodybuilders. Seems to me we are both trying to make progress. How can they make progress training as frequently as they do? Some bodybuilders train calves daily and experience growth. How is that possible?

So what we need to do is completely understand the growth process in muscles and see when hypertrophy occurs. We might be able to stimulate more growth while the window of hypertrophy is still open instead of closing it for a while 'to recover'. If growth is our aim then we might have to abandon accepted beliefs about things like rest and recovery. It is clear from anecdotal reports from grip enthusiasts that diminishing returns occur if you train too frequently. If you get those hand grips you will find you will eventually stop improving and might even injure yourself. I found that doing pinch gripping every 4th day gave me the optimum improvement in strength.

Strength and hypertrophy are related but not 100%. As we get bigger we usually get stronger. Some people get stronger but do not get much bigger.

Getting back to hypertrophy how do we determine what frequency and volume and intensity are optimum? We could keep journals or train others and see what makes a difference. From my 46 years in the Irongame I am inclined to conjecture that more frequent training might be the best for maximum hypertrophy. Rest days might be a good idea but it remains to be seen if they help. Anecdotal reports suggest that most bodybuilders train bodyparts about twice a week. The way to find out how frequently to train a muscle would be to stop all other training and concentrate on one body part such as arms. Train only the arms for a month and see what happens. Do whatever it takes to make them grow every training day. You should be able to measure the growth the next day first thing in the morning. We will consider any swelling as growth as a practical way to measure progress. The next thing to determine is how heavy and for how long.
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« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2006, 08:52:01 PM »

Was that great Sergio training with great gains without Steroids???Mmmmmm thought not.What works for one doesn't work for all. The Real Life Theory.IMO.
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« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2006, 09:07:01 PM »

Steroids and other drugs contaminate bodybuilding theory because it becomes rather pointless trying to determine what is responsible for growth. If we work with drug free trainees we might have a better opportunity to discover what the requirements are.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that the required stimulus to trigger hypertrophy might be geometrically related to size. In other words you have to train incrementally harder the bigger you get. Exactly how much harder is not known. Anecdotal reports suggest that most people are unable to train hard enough to generate anything more than intermediate results. When growth stops how does anyone determine why that has happened? If you do not know why you are not growing you will hardly know what to do to start growing again. Some theorists suggest that androgen receptors get saturated and what is required is time off so that upon resumption of training the body has the capacity to grow more muscle again. I am not convinced that these rest periods are necessary. However, no one has been able to keep a muscle growing indefinitely or even until maximum size has been reached.

We were always told that hypertrophy involved having cells and fibers increase in size. Can we also generate more cells and new fibers? If so then that might explain why a few people can get huge but most do not attain huge size. That process is of course hyperplasia. There are conflicting reports about whether hyperplasia occurs in humans.
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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2006, 06:25:31 AM »

ya, mentzer said about 10-15 seconds, dante says 15 deep breaths.

wow, where does dante come up with these groundbreaking variations that he calls "his". hhahahahaha

natural al, re-read  Your MA's post.

Dante is word for word tweaked HIT training that ANYONE with any common sense could've figured out on their own.

Want to know how to eat, just read a couple of TA's threads, it's not rocket science and most of these fat ass bodybuilders over eat, and they over eat with protein

Dante's got a good scam going no 2 ways about it. Most people just don't have the balls to rip off someone else's work, pass it as their own and then charge $500.

metzer's way of rping was way more different than you're saying here.  He basically had you load up the bar with as much weight as you could handle rep, rack, rest rep again, rest....fail, lower the weight and start over.  Not really the same thing.

what's my MA's post?  I honestly don't know what you mean....like I said I've got alot going on so I'm a little scatterbrained right now...I really don't have the energy to get into a big debate, you sound like you have your mind made up and that's fine.  Go ahead and do what TA tells you to do, it's not like his stuff he's saying is all that different than ellington darden said about 20 years ago...or metzer for that fact with the whole a calorie is a calorie....

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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2006, 06:28:19 AM »

metzer's way of rping was way more different than you're saying here.  He basically had you load up the bar with as much weight as you could handle rep, rack, rest rep again, rest....fail, lower the weight and start over.  Not really the same thing.

what's my MA's post?  I honestly don't know what you mean....like I said I've got alot going on so I'm a little scatterbrained right now...I really don't have the energy to get into a big debate, you sound like you have your mind made up and that's fine.  Go ahead and do what TA tells you to do, it's not like his stuff he's saying is all that different than ellington darden said about 20 years ago...or metzer for that fact with the whole a calorie is a calorie....



It may have been lost in the shuffle but TA's way is just the way it was before supplement company's and drug user started brainwashing everybody for financial gain. He'll admit that.
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« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2006, 06:35:07 AM »

It may have been lost in the shuffle but TA's way is just the way it was before supplement company's and drug user started brainwashing everybody for financial gain. He'll admit that.

he made a comment on another thread that was almost word for word out of one of Dardens books, I'd have to dig out the book and look it up but I swear it was copied out of it.  I think it's 10 weeks to massive muscles or something like that...I'm not saying what he says is wrong, right or anything else, I'm not saying what anybody says is wrong, I'm saying you have to find what works for you.  I have no problem training DC and I have no problem eating like I do, I don't carry dried chicken breasts around I eat like a normal person just more protien and I tend to function better this way so it's not an issue.
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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2006, 07:30:10 AM »

Sorry to break this to you, but at least 90% of the juicers on mayhem would be under 200 pounds if they stopped with their gear use.

Any juicer on here doesn't believe me?  THEN JUST FUCKING DO IT AND WATCH YOURSELF SHRINK TO NOTHING.  In the meantime stop acting like you are genetically superior.
Huh Huh

im 250 pounds naturally.
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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2006, 07:30:52 AM »

Huh Huh

im 250 pounds naturally.
of course you are. Roll Eyes
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Jaejonna rows 125!!
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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2006, 07:34:03 AM »

of course you are. Roll Eyes
yes i am but im tall to. 190 cm.
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2006, 08:58:40 AM »

True about potato chips having the same GI as a sweet potato, they recommend eating foods with an * sparingly, as they are loaded with empty calories.  I'll stick to the old school way of eating.  www.nutritionaledge.org  I'll admit I'm no competitor, but eating clean made a new man out of me.  Also remember all processed foods must be unprocessed before you can get at any nutrients out of them.  If you can get away with ice cream, pizza and all the good stuff fine.  It doesn't work for me. Your Guide to the GI Index
 
 
   
 
 
 
Low-GI Foods: Less Than 55
* Eat foods printed in red sparingly; these are high in empty calories.

   
 Artichoke <15 
 
 Asparagus <15 
 
 Broccoli <15 
 
 Cauliflower <15 
 
 Celery <15 
 
 Cucumber <15 
 
 Eggplant <15 
 
 Green beans <15 
 
 Lettuce, all varieties <15 
 
 Low-fat yogurt, artificially sweetened <15 
 
 Peanuts <15 
 
 Peppers, all varieties <15 
 
 Snow peas <15 
 
 Spinach <15 
 
 Young summer squash <15 
 
 Zucchini <15 
 
 Tomatoes 15 
 
 Cherries 22 
 
 Peas, dried 22 
 
 Plum 24 
 
 Grapefruit 25 
 
 Pearled barley 25 
 
 Peach 28 
 
 Canned peaches, natural juice 30 
 
 Dried apricots 31 
 
 Soy milk 30 
 
 Baby lima beans, frozen 32 
 
 Fat-free milk 32 
 
 Fettuccine 32 
 
* M&M's Chocolate Candies, Peanut 32 
 
 Low-fat yogurt, sugar sweetened 33 
 
 Apple 36 
 
 Pear 36 
 
 Whole wheat spaghetti 37 
 
 Tomato soup 38 
 
 Carrots, cooked 39 
 
* Mars Snickers Bar 40 
 
 Apple juice 41 
 
 Spaghetti 41 
 
 All-Bran 42 
 
 Canned chickpeas 42 
 
 Custard 43 
 
 Grapes 43 
 
 Orange 43 
 
 Canned lentil soup 44 
 
 Canned pinto beans 45 
 
 Macaroni 45 
 
 Pineapple juice 46 
 
 Banana bread 47 
 
 Long-grain rice 47 
 
 Parboiled rice 47 
 
 Bulgur 48 
 
 Canned baked beans 48 
 
 Grapefruit juice 48 
 
 Green peas 48 
 
 Oat bran bread 48 
 
* Chocolate bar, 1.5 oz 49 
 
 Old-fashioned oatmeal 49 
 
 Cheese tortellini 50 
 
* Low-fat ice cream 50 
 
 Canned kidney beans 52 
 
 Kiwifruit 52 
 
 Orange juice, not from concentrate 52 
 
 Banana 53 
 
* Potato chips 54 
 
* Pound cake 54 
 
 Special K 54 
 
 Sweet potato 54 
 
 

* Eat foods printed in red sparingly; these are high in empty calories.

 
 
 
 
 
 
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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2006, 09:10:59 AM »

yes i am but im tall to. 190 cm.

c'mon don't you know by now that unless you say you're 115lbs and 5'9" tall sarcasm is gonna call you a liar?  Get with the program around here.
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« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2010, 07:35:17 PM »

I think they will feel a distinct fascial stretch in their anal sphincters as they are gang banged by the TRUTH

lol
first post that cracked me the fuck up in a while

http://gangbang.vidz.com/
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« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2012, 03:28:59 AM »

I`m serious.

Trust me. I have done the traditional thing for years and you know what.

It is all lies,myths and nonsense fueled by hysteria and rarely any science.

Simply put, Ice Cream/Frozen Yogurt has a higher nutrient content and mineral content and lower GI than Oatmeal and Brown Rice.

It barely even registers an insulin response.  Brown Rice And oatmeal are far less nutritional and will cause blood sugar levels rise way way more.

Add that to the fact that new studies have proven that Dairy products specifically release fat stored in the abdominal region.


You can look this shit up yourself or you can just listen.

Now tell me I am wrong. hahhahah

adonis can you point me at a summary of the principles?
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« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:40 AM »

adonis can you point me at a summary of the principles?


can we not resurrect ancient garbage please?

adonis is a tool
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« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2012, 11:16:14 AM »

adonis can you point me at a summary of the principles?

Adonis Principles are definitely the way to go.  I'd point you in the right direction if I could.

Basically, you need to find out how much calories and protein you need in a day.  To Gain Weight, Maintain, or Lose Weight.  Find out how much protein you need.

Get your protein and calories (as long as you stick to the daily allowances, and focus on getting your protein) from a variety of sources (even McDonald's).

You actually find that "normal" non bbing foods have more nutrients/protein, you just have to keep your calories on track.
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