Author Topic: question for christian people?  (Read 6186 times)

ToxicAvenger

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question for christian people?
« on: September 20, 2006, 08:31:45 PM »
why did god come to earh in human form and then let humans kill him...i have 2 problems with this..

1) humans were able to kill god (what????)

2)how can god be on earth and take care of the universe at the same time..it violates paulis exclusion principle..one of gods own phhysics principles...so if god wants us to learn looking at nature why would he contradict his own physics and confuse humanity...?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle







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OzmO

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 09:03:18 PM »
why did god come to earh in human form and then let humans kill him...i have 2 problems with this..

1) humans were able to kill god (what????)

2)how can god be on earth and take care of the universe at the same time..it violates paulis exclusion principle..one of gods own phhysics principles...so if god wants us to learn looking at nature why would he contradict his own physics and confuse humanity...?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle

have you read the 4 gospels?  start there.









ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 09:16:40 PM »


i grew up muslim and i haven't really read the koran...why the heck would i bore myself with other religion..

gimme the cliff notes..
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Lord Humungous

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 04:53:36 AM »
1. Jesus the only son of God was sent to earth AS MAN(all men die)  so that his blood would wash our sins away. God is totally rightous and theirfore can not allow a sinner to enter heaven. Jesus excepted ALL OF OUR SINS and his blood was spilt to wash ours away. This makes us clean of sin and able to enter heaven un tarnished.

2. God is Omnipotent.

Toxy im disappointed in you  >:( come to the table with better stuff.
X

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 08:29:19 AM »
question 2 is stupid. how did matter form then, using thermodynamics and entropy they are violated. answer that question.

Butterbean

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2006, 10:39:19 AM »
why did god come to earh in human form and then let humans kill him...i have 2 problems with this..

1) humans were able to kill god (what????)

2)how can god be on earth and take care of the universe at the same time..it violates paulis exclusion principle..one of gods own phhysics principles...so if god wants us to learn looking at nature why would he contradict his own physics and confuse humanity...?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle









1)  The sacrifice had to be completely perfect - thus it had to be the one that lived the only perfect life ever.  Jesus "allowed" Himself to be sacrificed.  He could have stopped the crucifixion at any moment.  He died willingly, for us.

2)  I concur w/Lord H.  God is Omnipotent.
R

Butterbean

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2006, 10:40:38 AM »
question 2 is stupid. how did matter form then, using thermodynamics and entropy they are violated. answer that question.

Hey smoke or Toxy, what is the "law" or "principle" that explains what holds matter together?
R

Migs

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2006, 11:09:55 AM »
There are three physical laws governing matter and energy

A) Law of conservation of matter

B) First law of energy (first law of thermodynamics)

C) Second law of energy (second law of thermodynamics)

Necrosis

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2006, 01:12:22 PM »
i also have another comment for all the atheists and such. stop asking questions to which we as humans cannot answer and use that to validate your beleifs. there are numerous questions that science cant answer like the one i posted but i dont bager people with them as to denounce others claims. i mean i could list numerous questions to which you guys could not answer which would make it seem to the laymen that science is flawed.

Necrosis

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2006, 01:15:04 PM »
here are some i would like answered:
1 Cosmic Evolution - the origin of time, space, and matter. This is the big bang. 2. Chemical Evolution - the origin of higher elements from hydrogen. (If the Big Bang produced hydrogen and some helium, how did we get the others? 3. Stellar and planetary Evolution - the origin of stars and planets. (No one has ever seen a star form. What you see is a spot getting brighter and you assume a star is forming. It could be the dust is clearing and there’s a star behind it. No one has ever proven the formation of a single star. Yet it’s estimated that there are enough stars for every person on earth to own 2 trillion stars.) 4. Organic Evolution - the origin of life. Somehow life has to get started from non-living material. (But spontaneous generation was proven wrong 200 years ago.) 5. Macro Evolution - Changing from one kind of animal into another. (Nobody has ever seen a dog produce a non-dog. Big or small it’s still a dog. Dog, wolf, and coyote may have had a common ancestor, but they’re still the same kind of animal.) 6. Micro Evolution - Variations within kinds (big dogs and little dogs). Only this one has been observed.

also, just to add, your atheism is just as much a leap of faith as religion. we have no more proof of god then a spontaneous universe etc so atheism in its ideology is a leap of faith.

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2006, 01:16:56 PM »
Jesus died for our sins.. he died for you and me..
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2006, 03:21:24 PM »
1. Jesus the only son of God was sent to earth AS MAN(all men die)  so that his blood would wash our sins away. God is totally rightous and theirfore can not allow a sinner to enter heaven. Jesus excepted ALL OF OUR SINS and his blood was spilt to wash ours away. This makes us clean of sin and able to enter heaven un tarnished.

2. God is Omnipotent.

Toxy im disappointed in you  >:( come to the table with better stuff.

no god being in 2 places at the same time violates the exclusion principle..which basically says " no 2 particles can exist at the same place at the same time" god being here and THERE violates the principle..god says in the koran (and hopefully bible) that you can find me thru knowlodge and science is the persuit of knowlodge..i could ask the same questions of muslims but there r more christians here so i focused it on them..
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2006, 03:23:37 PM »
question 2 is stupid. how did matter form then, using thermodynamics and entropy they are violated. answer that question.


huh??  lol...


entropy is just the measure of disorder in a system..

rephrase your question...
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Nordic Superman

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2006, 03:25:48 PM »
no god being in 2 places at the same time violates the exclusion principle..which basically says " no 2 particles can exist at the same place at the same time" god being here and THERE violates the principle..god says in the koran (and hopefully bible) that you can find me thru knowlodge and science is the persuit of knowlodge..i could ask the same questions of muslims but there r more christians here so i focused it on them..

I'm not religious. But the concept of God is... he is fucking GOD for fucks sake... meaning he created the heavens and the earth, the atoms and their forces.

With this in mind, if there is a God I am sure he could say "hey hold up there atom... and you too dark matter, I want to exist in both your places" and it would be so.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2006, 03:25:56 PM »
.  Jesus "allowed" Himself to be sacrificed.  He could have stopped the crucifixion at any moment.  He died willingly,

i can accept that answer within the confines of your religion :)   the ONLY smart answer given this thread...


still leaves with another question...why did he have to sacrifice himself willingly to rid us of sin?  he coulda just snapped his fingers..after all he ws god...see that what i dont get  also
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2006, 03:27:38 PM »
I'm not religious. But the concept of God is... he is fucking GOD for fucks sake... meaning he created the heavens and the earth, the atoms and their forces.

With this in mind, if there is a God I am sure he could say "hey hold up there atom... and you too dark matter, I want to exist in both your places" and it would be so.


yes yes i agree...yet he has a HUGE problem showing himself to me just for a millisecond...i mean he is god for fucks sake..he can do anything..including making me believe..

and u say i'm not important enough...well he can also take importance out of the equation...he IS GOD ...
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2006, 03:29:32 PM »
Hey smoke or Toxy, what is the "law" or "principle" that explains what holds matter together?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_nuclear_force
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2006, 03:32:28 PM »
i also have another comment for all the atheists and such. stop asking questions to which we as humans cannot answer and use that to validate your beleifs. there are numerous questions that science cant answer like the one i posted but i dont bager people with them as to denounce others claims. i mean i could list numerous questions to which you guys could not answer which would make it seem to the laymen that science is flawed.



sorry..i'm an athiest but even growing up muslim my dad always quoted a mohammed quote to me " search for knowlodge even if you have to g to china for it" (apparently china ws considered far).thing is its the one thing in religion i took to heart...if there is a god..he should be available thru the search of knowlodge..ie science....Einstein once said "god does not play dice"    <---everything  should make sence...and i'm trying to make sence of it..thts all
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 03:34:15 PM »


also, just to add, your atheism is just as much a leap of faith as religion. we have no more proof of god then a spontaneous universe etc so atheism in its ideology is a leap of faith.


actually real matter gets created outside of black holes from virtual matter...kinda how we locate black holes..its called hawkings radiation..google it
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Necrosis

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 03:54:53 PM »
 hawking, he hasnt done anything in science, and his peers and mentors dwarf his contributions. his thoughts or principles are just theorys. i am aware of all of his work, but i dont think he is anywere near the best minds in the world. i did think like you at one time but others surpass him . it is just  a theory toxic with many flaws. read about autocatalysis if your interested in origin, much better theory. anyway, i agree with your search for info its just that atheist and creationists should not use such weak minded attacks that is all. provide evidence and if something seems valid go with it. the law of entropy would state that this is a closed system the universe that is. therefore no energy is being inputed according to science therefore singularity. therefore defiance of the laws to explain origin. i should have been more astute in my contentions. anyway you sound more like an agnostic like me.

Butterbean

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2006, 06:27:36 PM »



still leaves with another question...why did he have to sacrifice himself willingly to rid us of sin?  he coulda just snapped his fingers..after all he ws god...see that what i dont get  also

from dashhouse.com    (Toxy, more direct answers to your questions are in bold text)

Why Did Jesus Have to Die? (Hebrews 10:1-18)
As you read the events leading up to the death of Jesus, you feel like yelling out, "No!" You know what's about to happen. You know that one of his chosen friends is about to desert him. You know that the minute he steps into Jerusalem, he's on an irreversible course that will lead to his death. You wish that this time, the story could end up differently.

Jesus knew what was coming too. It wasn't a surprise to him. He knew it was going to happen, and he could have stopped it at any time. You have to wonder why he would subject himself to that, which leads to a bigger question. If Jesus truly was God, what's the deal with having to die anyway? Doesn't God make the rules? Couldn't he have found a different way if he wanted to forgive us? It seems strange that God made this requirement that we had to die for our sins, and then subjected his own Son to this punishment. Why couldn't he have just said, "Hey, it's okay, I'll forgive you." Why did Jesus have to die?

This is a pretty important question to answer, because the cross is so ugly and so central to what it means to be a Christian. The cross isn't a thing of beauty. It's an instrument of torture. It's about as glamorous as a firing squad or an electric chair. It's only because we haven't seen a crucifixion that we can think of the cross as a nice thing. It's ugly, but it's at the center. The Apostle Paul said, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2 NIV).

Martin Luther called Christianity a theology of the cross. Why was the cross so necessary?

I want to look at a passage of Scripture that explains why the cross was so necessary, and what Jesus accomplished there. This passage is rooted in the Jewish faith. The readers would have been very familiar with the sacrifices that were taking place in the Temple, and they would have been familiar with a lot of the concepts that this passage talks about. This is a great passage to help us understand why the cross was so necessary.

It's probably helpful to begin with a few background concepts, though. Anyone who ever encountered God was scared - not scared by any negative character qualities so much, but scared because God is so other, so exalted. If God is scary to begin with, imagine God when he's angry. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31).

It's one thing for us to forgive others when they wrong us. An apology is really all that's necessary. It's different with God. His justice is so strong that he can't just say, "Hey, I understand, no problem." This creates a bit of a problem for God - one he chose to have - because he has a desire to forgive us. But he can't do this without compromising his justice, just as a judge couldn't say to a criminal, "Hey, no problem, forget about the law. I forgive you."

God didn't have to save us. He could have said, quite literally, "Go to hell." He did with the angels. "God did not spare even the angels when they sinned; he threw them into hell, in gloomy caves and darkness until the judgment day" (2 Peter 2:4). Once he decided to save us, two of his character qualities presented a problem. His justice demanded that sin have consequences. His love made him want to forgive us. He could have been just and condemned us, and he could have been loving and just forgiven us, but how could he be loving and just at the same time?

Hebrews 10:1-4 says:

The old system in the law of Moses was only a shadow of the things to come, not the reality of the good things Christ has done for us. The sacrifices under the old system were repeated again and again, year after year, but they were never able to provide perfect cleansing for those who came to worship. If they could have provided perfect cleansing, the sacrifices would have stopped, for the worshipers would have been purified once for all time, and their feelings of guilt would have disappeared.

But just the opposite happened. Those yearly sacrifices reminded them of their sins year after year. For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

We've just looked at God's side of the problem. He wants to be loving and just and the same time. Now, here's our side of the equation. We've offended God, actually made him angry - not a petulant anger, but a justified one. What do you bring a God that you've angered? What do you do to make things right? In the old Jewish system, you brought him a sacrifice. It's the way that God commanded people to approach him. But it still didn't work.

That's a little frustrating. It's like God has told us the only way that we can relate to him, and it's still not enough. God says, "Try this," and we try it, and God says, "No, that won't do." The problem with sacrifices is that they never do the job. If they did what we intended them to do, once would be enough. But it wasn't. What we thought would lead us to God instead became a reminder of our own sins.

The sacrifices weren't meant to do the job, it turns out. They were only meant to serve as a rough outline for what Jesus came to do. The writer calls it "a shadow of the things to come."

This isn't a new thought. It's actually part of the old Jewish system, already hinted at in the Scriptures. Hebrews 10:5-10 quotes Psalm 40, and puts the words into Jesus' mouth before he came to earth:

That is why Christ, when he came into the world, said,

"You did not want animal sacrifices and grain offerings.
But you have given me a body so that I may obey you.
No, you were not pleased with animals burned on the altar
or with other offerings for sin.
Then I said, 'Look, I have come to do your will, O God-
just as it is written about me in the Scriptures.'"

Christ said, "You did not want animal sacrifices or grain offerings or animals burned on the altar or other offerings for sin, nor were you pleased with them" (though they are required by the law of Moses). Then he added, "Look, I have come to do your will." He cancels the first covenant in order to establish the second. And what God wants is for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Even back in the middle of offering sacrifices to God - even in the glory days - people realized it wasn't enough. One of the problems with sacrifices is that imperfect people bring them. They could never do what needed to be done to satisfy God's love and justice, or to allow us to approach God.

That's where Jesus changed things. Jesus came to offer himself as a sacrifice. He came out of love to satisfy God's justice. He cancelled the old sacrificial system (which was probably still going on at the Temple when this letter was written) and with one act dealt with our sins.

Hebrews 10:11-18 says:

Under the old covenant, the priest stands before the altar day after day, offering sacrifices that can never take away sins. But our High Priest offered himself to God as one sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down at the place of highest honor at God's right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled as a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy.

And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. First he says,

"This is the new covenant I will make
with my people on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their minds
so they will obey them."

Then he adds,

"I will never again remember
their sins and lawless deeds."

Now when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.

Under the old system, sacrifices were made daily. With Christ, one sacrifice was offered for all time. When the priests offered the sacrifices under the old system, they remained standing. When Christ offered himself as a sacrifice, he returned and sat at the right hand of God, because the work was done. No more sacrifices were required. Under the old system, sins weren't taken away; they were just covered over. With Christ's sacrifice, sin wasn't just covered. It was removed. Our sins have been completely forgiven because of the one, decisive act of Jesus Christ. He doesn't even remember our sins.

That's something we can build our lives on. Here, we find answers to our inadequacies. It's not up to us. Christ has already dealt with our inadequacies. They've been forgiven.

Christ has dealt with our insecurity. We don't have to worry about our future offenses. They've already been dealt with.

We're safe here. There really isn't a place in this world in which we're completely safe. There's no person who is completely safe, no matter how close a relationship we may have with them. We can never let our defenses down completely - except at the cross. The cross is the one place where we've been completely forgiven, where we're completely safe.

Here we find a solution to our nagging, debilitating guilt. Here we find a place of permanence, stability in which we will always be "home" - we find our presence of rest in the presence of God himself.

Romans 8:1 says, "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus." Why did Jesus have to die? It was the only way God could save us while maintaining both his love and his justice. It's the only way we could approach him. It's the only way we could be safe with God.

Prayer:

Praise for Christ's work

"My sins not in part but the whole, are nailed to the cross and I bear them no more"

Invitation to receive Christ's work of forgiveness
R

loco

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 07:05:09 AM »
from dashhouse.com    (Toxy, more direct answers to your questions are in bold text)

Why Did Jesus Have to Die? (Hebrews 10:1-18)

Great read...thanks!

loco

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 07:08:16 AM »
I'm not religious. But the concept of God is... he is fucking GOD for fucks sake... meaning he created the heavens and the earth, the atoms and their forces.

With this in mind, if there is a God I am sure he could say "hey hold up there atom... and you too dark matter, I want to exist in both your places" and it would be so.

Smartest answer to #2, and it comes from a non-religious person.  GOD can do whatever HE wants to do, whenever and wherever HE wants to.

loco

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2006, 07:21:58 AM »
1) humans were able to kill god (what????)

1)  Jesus said:

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.  No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again" Jonh 10:17-18

Quote
2)how can god be on earth and take care of the universe at the same time..it violates paulis exclusion principle..one of gods own phhysics principles...so if god wants us to learn looking at nature why would he contradict his own physics and confuse humanity...?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle

2) God is
Omnipresent: "the ability to be present in every place at the same time"

Omnipotent: "almighty: having unlimited power "

Omniscient: "Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise"

ToxicAvenger

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Re: question for christian people?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2006, 04:54:52 PM »
hawking, he hasnt done anything in science, and his peers and mentors dwarf his contributions. his thoughts or principles are just theorys. i am aware of all of his work, but i dont think he is anywere near the best minds in the world. i did think like you at one time but others surpass him . it is just  a theory toxic with many flaws. read about autocatalysis if your interested in origin, much better theory. anyway, i agree with your search for info its just that atheist and creationists should not use such weak minded attacks that is all. provide evidence and if something seems valid go with it. the law of entropy would state that this is a closed system the universe that is. therefore no energy is being inputed according to science therefore singularity. therefore defiance of the laws to explain origin. i should have been more astute in my contentions. anyway you sound more like an agnostic like me.


no no i'm not depressed enough to be aginistic..


anyhow.dark energy and all that..the universe might be open

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-942708180683792815&q=dark+energy


there r better minds in physics..penrose comes to mind..but hawkings did make his contributions..he IS the lucesian professor of math at cambridge..a post previously held by newton..
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